Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[orrion]

Speaking of fallacies, what about "fake precision" you keep arguing that soul splice is something special.

In the soul splice, the three directors inserted souls into V's body, and V's spell slots and HP were replenished.

And the same thing happened here. The director inserted a soul into V's body. And v's Hp were replenished.

So it should be plainly obvious that spell slots being replenished is a reasonable possibility. Doesn't mean it actually happened, but it's enough to cast a reasonable doubt on the idea that V must be 16lv 24int.

That wouldn't be a splice since the definition of a splice requires 2 or more things, and they specifically stated they weren't allowed to put another soul into V's body because that violates the contract. We're only dealing with V's soul here.

If your contention is that the inserting of a soul into any body replenishes health and spell slots, I point you to Raise Dead and Resurrection. Those spells arguably restore the soul into the body and replenish health, but they specifically do not replenish spell slots. In fact, Raise Dead gives you a 50% chance to lose prepared spells.


Oh, and by the way - I didn't say a Soul Splice was special. The fiends said it was a once-in-a-century deal. Read panel 2 here. Now, could they be lying? Perhaps - but I tend to think that the Giant isn't lying and that we aren't going to see Soul Splices everywhere.

[Crusher]

Speaking of fallacies, what about "fake precision" you keep arguing that soul splice is something special.

In the soul splice, the three directors inserted souls into V's body, and V's spell slots and HP were replenished.

And the same thing happened here. The director inserted a soul into V's body. And v's Hp were replenished.

So it should be plainly obvious that spell slots being replenished is a reasonable possibility. Doesn't mean it actually happened, but it's enough to cast a reasonable doubt on the idea that V must be 16lv 24int.

This is perhaps piling on at this point, but its worth noting that replenishing spell slots is, as has been noted, an extremely powerful and virtually non-existent ability because its an enormous power multiplier for a caster.

If putting a soul into a body replenished spell slots, every wizard of any consequence would know techniques for putting souls into bodies because wizards who could do it would be dramatically more powerful than wizards who couldn't and wizards are fond of increasing their power.

If, instead, it required that a major fiend put a soul into the wizard's body to replenish their spell-slots, every wizard of consequence would be a servant of those major fiends because of the magnitude of the power increase. There wouldn't really be battles between good and evil because the ones who did serve the fiends would be dramatically more powerful than same-level ones who didn't, leading to some really one-sided battles and easy recruiting for the fiends.

AFAIK, all the wizards of consequence in the Stick-verse are not thralls of their demonic overlords. Additionally, Varsuvius, despite being a fairly advanced wizard, didn't instantly know that putting a soul into a body replenish spellslots so it must be more complicated than that. As such, spell-slot replenishment must be a very rare and difficult thing to do, which fits with the fiends description of the soulsplice as being a once-in-a-century kind of thing.

Edit -

The fact that we can do the math here and work out that V leveled makes me think the Giant keeps more careful track of his characters' stats than he lets on in the forums.

Personally, I believe the Giant, contrary to his comments, has every character of significance stat-ed at least at a basic level (I have total confidence that the Giant knows exactly what level all the major characters are, what classes they have, their gear, spellslots, and the bulk of their feats mapped out). Its part of the story-telling, because it implicitly gives context to the decisions and helps flesh out the characters, whether we're directly made aware of it or not.

If the Giant needs a plot-point to go a particular way for the benefit of the story, then that's what he'll do. But sometimes what's narratively the best choice doesn't make sense given the range of abilities the characters would have. He's ok with that because Story > Fidelity to the rules. But when it happens, he *knows* that the character is doing something that isn't correct for their level, class, etc. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing. Well, he *does* care, its just that the Story has to come first.

But people like to play "gotcha" and that pisses the Giant off. So he fixes the dilemma by simply not telling us what level and class everyone is, allowing some plausible deniability and letting the story run more smoothly.

[JustWantedToSay]

Crusher, by your logic, then why is anybody a fighter or rogue, when wizards are so much more powerful?

Story logic: Conservation of detail. The giant mentioned that spells would be replenished for a reason. I don't remember V using much in the way of spells after losing the splices. (Just invisibility, IIRC). Therefore it's likely that Giant has a plan for the replenishment of spells to come at a later date.

[Cerussite]

Speaking of fallacies, what about "fake precision" you keep arguing that soul splice is something special.

In the soul splice, the three directors inserted souls into V's body, and V's spell slots and HP were replenished.

And the same thing happened here. The director inserted a soul into V's body. And v's Hp were replenished.

So it should be plainly obvious that spell slots being replenished is a reasonable possibility. Doesn't mean it actually happened, but it's enough to cast a reasonable doubt on the idea that V must be 16lv 24int.

No, it isn't. First because no soul was inserted onto V. Second, because instant resting is uncommon enough that the IFCC had to outright state it the first time to V. Third, because they're in no kind of contractual obligation (such as the one when they spliced her) to V. Fourth, because it's infinitely simpler that V simply leveled and raised her main attribute than that the fiends would do something that is explicitly stated as being one of the effects of a soul splice outside of one just for the lulz.

[OPM]

A long time ago, during the palace arc, we saw Malack, V & Durkon chatting in a discussion that made it sound like Malack had a rope belt. Now that Durkon has, at least, Malack's staff, we should probably keep an eye out for any indications that Durkon looted a rope belt off of his corpse as well.

Mind you, I don't know that there's any good evidence for this yet, but just something to watch for.

[orrion]

A long time ago, during the palace arc, we saw Malack, V & Durkon chatting in a discussion that made it sound like Malack had a rope belt. Now that Durkon has, at least, Malack's staff, we should probably keep an eye out for any indications that Durkon looted a rope belt off of his corpse as well.

Mind you, I don't know that there's any good evidence for this yet, but just something to watch for.

Durkon didn't get the staff from Malack's corpse. Also, Malack didn't really have a corpse.

[Crusher]

Crusher, by your logic, then why is anybody a fighter or rogue, when wizards are so much more powerful?

Story logic: Conservation of detail. The giant mentioned that spells would be replenished for a reason. I don't remember V using much in the way of spells after losing the splices. (Just invisibility, IIRC). Therefore it's likely that Giant has a plan for the replenishment of spells to come at a later date.

Not everyone has a high enough INT or access to proper training. Very few have both. Roy had both, turned them down to become a fighter, and his dad was apoplectic with disbelief that he would make such a stupid move.

[Taelas]

Speaking of fallacies, what about "fake precision" you keep arguing that soul splice is something special.

In the soul splice, the three directors inserted souls into V's body, and V's spell slots and HP were replenished.

And the same thing happened here. The director inserted a soul into V's body. And v's Hp were replenished.

So it should be plainly obvious that spell slots being replenished is a reasonable possibility. Doesn't mean it actually happened, but it's enough to cast a reasonable doubt on the idea that V must be 16lv 24int.

You are deliberately twisting the circumstances to make it seem as if they are "the same". They are not; not even close.

Vaarsuvius was in control of his body when he underwent the soul splice. They attached three foreign souls to his own.

When they returned V's soul to his body, there were no soul in it. There was nothing to splice V's soul unto, because that is not what they were doing.

They specifically said that the soul splice caused his spells to be replenished. Until we see some evidence to the effect that a) V was soul spliced again, or b) the Directors exhibit powers specifically towards the restoration of daily spells slots outside of soul splices, then any speculation that the IFCC caused V to have his full repertoire of spells back is just that: pure speculation, with no evidence.

[orrion]

Crusher, by your logic, then why is anybody a fighter or rogue, when wizards are so much more powerful?

Story logic: Conservation of detail. The giant mentioned that spells would be replenished for a reason. I don't remember V using much in the way of spells after losing the splices. (Just invisibility, IIRC). Therefore it's likely that Giant has a plan for the replenishment of spells to come at a later date.

Giant logic: Conservation of detail is overrated.

Whether or not the Giant has a plan for replenishment of spells that doesn't follow the rules at a later date doesn't mean anything for the arguments being presented here. It's a non sequitur.

[JustWantedToSay]

There is strong evidence that Xykon is lv 28+. (12th level spell)
There is weak evidence that Xykon is lowered level. (Comments to roy, 12th level spell can be explained through speculation)

And so the thread lists Xykon as only lv 21+


There is strong evidence that V is lv 16 and 24 int.
There is weak in-comic evidence that V could have had spells replenished. Yes it's speculative. It's a stretch sure, but it's still a reasonable stretch to demonstrate a mere possibility.

Therefore V cannot be listed as lv16 and 24int.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Speculation that Xykon may have a magic item described in the core rulebooks should not be equated with speculation that V was affected by an extraordinarily powerful homebrew without it being mentioned.

Part of what non-players are missing, I think, is that while effects that heal a character completely are relatively common, replenishing all spells is extremely powerful and as far as I know nothing in RAW can do that. It was named specifically as a side-effect of the splice in part because it's so unusual. Invoking that effect when it hasn't been explicitly named is borderline silly.

[Douglas]

Story logic: Conservation of detail. The giant mentioned that spells would be replenished for a reason. I don't remember V using much in the way of spells after losing the splices. (Just invisibility, IIRC). Therefore it's likely that Giant has a plan for the replenishment of spells to come at a later date.

The reason replenishment of spell slots was mentioned was to make it clear that the spells from the splice itself would be available to use immediately.

[JustWantedToSay]

Speculation that Xykon may have a magic item described in the core rulebooks should not be equated with speculation that V was affected by an extraordinarily powerful homebrew without it being mentioned.

If you want to play it like that, then lets speculate that V has a 2nd ring of wizardry of a different level giving her another +4 spells.

But I'd rank "An effect mentioned in a slightly similar but far from identical situation" as higher evidence than "an item never alluded to at all in the comic"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you want to play it like that, then lets speculate that V has a 2nd ring of wizardry of a different level giving her another +4 spells.

But I'd rank "An effect mentioned in a similar but not identical situation" as higher evidence than "an item never alluded to at all in the comic"

Removing someone's soul from their body for 20 minutes is most definitely not similar to anchoring three souls to an existing one during a time stop. Other than the participants being the same individuals, the two situations are not even remotely comparable.

Also, I was under the impression that the explanation for Xykon's spell was the switch of the sorcerer familiar he lacks for a different class ability that would allow that particular metamagic to be performed as a standard action - am I wrong?

Grey Wolf

[rodneyAnonymous]

If you want to play it like that, then lets speculate that V has a 2nd ring of wizardry of a different level giving her another +4 spells.

But I'd rank "An effect mentioned in a slightly similar but far from identical situation" as higher evidence than "an item never alluded to at all in the comic"

It's not similar, it's way different. You don't understand how tremendously powerful it would be to replenish all of a wizard's spell slots. Assuming it happened without being mentioned would be a hundred times sillier than the second ring of wizardry thing.

[Living Oxymoron]

Speculation that Xykon may have a magic item described in the core rulebooks should not be equated with speculation that V was affected by an extraordinarily powerful homebrew without it being mentioned.

I'm sorry, I think it should. Homebrew or core material, both were never mentioned in the comics. The case of Xykon is even worse... I never saw him using rods, wands or staffs to, at least, follow some pattern of the kind of items to which he resorts.

I think we have strong and verisimilar evidence to state that Vaarsuvius is now level 16 and with Int 24. Likewise, we have strong evidence that Xykon is level 26 because of his spell slots above 9th level. But some of us will not agree with the change because a least possibility on the contrary seems to disprove obvious things in this thread.

[orrion]

There is strong evidence that Xykon is lv 28+. (12th level spell)
There is weak evidence that Xykon is lowered level. (Comments to roy, 12th level spell can be explained through speculation)

And so the thread lists Xykon as only lv 21+


There is strong evidence that V is lv 16 and 24 int.
There is weak in-comic evidence that V could have had spells replenished. Yes it's speculative. It's a stretch sure, but it's still a reasonable stretch to demonstrate a mere possibility.

Therefore V cannot be listed as lv16 and 24int.

No, there's zero evidence that a Soul Splice was done. A match of 1 criterion for the Soul Splice does not mean Soul Splice. Especially when in-comic evidence directly contradicts it because the fiends say it's a once-in-a-century deal.

Besides, even if they were lying, why would they suddenly start Splicing Vaarsuvius for free?

And while we're at it, why is there no evidence of the other soul(s) or an alteration of V's appearance like the first time? The point here is you can't say that because a singular aspect of a Soul Splice occurred that another Soul Splice was done when every other aspect of a Soul Splice is absent.



With Xykon, in-comic evidence doesn't directly contradict any of the interpretations. So they all currently stand until there's incontrovertible evidence for one of them, and the thread uses the lowest threshold.

[Flame of Anor]

There is strong evidence that Xykon is lv 28+. (12th level spell)
There is weak evidence that Xykon is lowered level. (Comments to roy, 12th level spell can be explained through speculation)

And so the thread lists Xykon as only lv 21+


There is strong evidence that V is lv 16 and 24 int.
There is weak in-comic evidence that V could have had spells replenished. Yes it's speculative. It's a stretch sure, but it's still a reasonable stretch to demonstrate a mere possibility.

Therefore V cannot be listed as lv16 and 24int.

That is completely a false equivalency. Personally I think Xykon is almost certainly 28+, but there is a RAW explanation that would allow him to be only 21+. The only explanation put forward for V having replenished spells is an unsupported variation on a homebrewed effect. We know that the soul splice did not occur in its standard form--and even that standard form is homebrewed! Not only do we have no explanation for V getting replenished spells that abides by RAW, we don't even have one that abides by established homebrew!

[Chronos]

No, obviously the replenishment didn't happen due to anything relating to the fiends. V's spell slots obviously refreshed due to talking to Belkar. There's precedent: The soul splice involved talking to someone, and that replenished slots, and so talking to someone else could also replenish slots. Obviously, the Giant is using a houserule that halflings can automatically replenish spellcasters' slots by talking to them.

[orrion]

I'm sorry, I think it should. Homebrew or core material, both were never mentioned in the comics. The case of Xykon is even worse... I never saw him using rods, wands or staffs to, at least, follow some pattern of the kind of items to which he resorts.

I think we have strong and verisimilar evidence to state that Vaarsuvius is now level 16 and with Int 24. Likewise, we have strong evidence that Xykon is level 26 because of his spell slots above 9th level. But some of us will not agree with the change because a least possibility on the contrary seems to disprove obvious things in this thread.

I think the Splice is worse because that's such a broken mechanic in terms of power. Which lends weight to the idea that it's not going to be used again. Plus we still have the fiends stating it's a once-a-century occurrence.

The speculations about Xykon's magic items probably persists because a) we know he has magic items and - perhaps more importantly - b) we know he can craft magic items and has spent in-comic time doing so. For months. He also has the prerequisite feat.


Meanwhile, V being Spliced just doesn't fit. At all. It contradicts what was said and it contradicts what we've seen when a Splice actually happens.

[Living Oxymoron]

If all the spell slots would be replenished, V would not have to cast Overland Flight again? It was still active after he awoke.

[orrion]

If all the spell slots would be replenished, V would not have to cast Overland Flight again? It was still active after he awoke.

Never saw V recast it when he was Spliced. Safe to assume he had it active when he zipped over to the isle.

[137beth]

Feats don't have schools, only spells do.

Heck, a wizard who bans conjuration can still take the feat Spell Focus: Conjuration. It won't do much for them, but they can still take it.

No, obviously the replenishment didn't happen due to anything relating to the fiends. V's spell slots obviously refreshed due to talking to Belkar. There's precedent: The soul splice involved talking to someone, and that replenished slots, and so talking to someone else could also replenish slots. Obviously, the Giant is using a houserule that halflings can automatically replenish spellcasters' slots by talking to them.

You win the thread!

[MesiDoomstalker]

In 920, V says "I retain one additional Fly spell to cast". IE V has 1 Fly spell left. Meaning the V had a Fly spell which was cast earlier. Since 918, when V returned from her trip to Hell, had yet to cast a Fly spell. To extrapolate, there had been 2+ Fly spells prepared, one of which was cast prior to V's temporary imprisonment. If V's spell slots were restored, V would not say "I retain one Fly spell to cast". V would say "I have one Fly spll to cast."

[Cerussite]

No, obviously the replenishment didn't happen due to anything relating to the fiends. V's spell slots obviously refreshed due to talking to Belkar. There's precedent: The soul splice involved talking to someone, and that replenished slots, and so talking to someone else could also replenish slots. Obviously, the Giant is using a houserule that halflings can automatically replenish spellcasters' slots by talking to them.

Otherwise called The Power of Love (TM)

[b_jonas]

Why does it have to say restoring spell slots? Instead of the rejuvenating effect of soul spilces, you could imagine other crazy ways why Varsaavius has an extra spell.

We've seen that the fiends were capable of putting an advanced time stop effect on the whole island that lasted more than a few turns. Maybe they put a time stop effect on Varsaavius right after she woke up, and she could heal and rest and meditate for nine hours.

Or maybe that bauble Blackwing stole isn't an orange prism ioun stone as we think, but an ioun stone that stores spells or gives an intelligence bonus or gives extra spell slots? Varsaavius gets a high circumstance bonus which is why she could spot Blackwing take the ioun stone from Miron immediately, and with his high intelligence she added the extra spells he gets from the stone to the tally right away.

Or maybe Varsaavius didn't cast so many overland flight spells from his spell slots, but used potions, scroll, wand, staff, rod, or ring storing the spell effect.

[The Giant]

Personally, I believe the Giant, contrary to his comments, has every character of significance stat-ed at least at a basic level (I have total confidence that the Giant knows exactly what level all the major characters are, what classes they have, their gear, spellslots, and the bulk of their feats mapped out). Its part of the story-telling, because it implicitly gives context to the decisions and helps flesh out the characters, whether we're directly made aware of it or not.

Giant in the Playground presents…A Brief Insight Into the Creative Process:

Vaarsvuius: I have in excess of thirty spells remaining.

Me: Hmmm. That seems too high.

Vaarsvuius: I have in excess of thirty twenty-five spells remaining.

Me: Done! Who wants Indian food?

~Fin~

[Illven]

Giant in the Playground presents…A Brief Insight Into the Creative Process:



Me: Hmmm. That seems too high.



Me: Done! Who wants Indian food?

~Fin~

So.... since you're here.... want to answer what level Vaarsuivus is?

It's worth a shot

[Cerussite]

Giant in the Playground presents…A Brief Insight Into the Creative Process:

Me: Done! Who wants Indian food?

~Fin~

That was cruel... yet awesome.

[The Giant]

So.... since you're here.... want to answer what level Vaarsuivus is?

Channa masala.