Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Douglas]

Note that Evasion is a class ability, not a feat. If that's true, Tarquin can't be a pure Fighter.

Evasion is available from a ring, and Tarquin is well established as using a large array of miscellaneous and powerful magic items.

[Living Oxymoron]

Evasion is available from a ring, and Tarquin is well established as using a large array of miscellaneous and powerful magic items.

He is already using two rings: True Seeing and Regeneration. Unless another kind of magic item is giving this ability, he has the real deal. But, I don't know, he could be a combo like Miko was (a few levels of Monk to take some relevant abilities and the rest of the levels is spent in another class, like Fighter).

[zimmerwald1915]

He is already using two rings: True Seeing and Regeneration.

Everyone forgets about hands of glory.

[Crusher]

Also, Tarquin actually displaying usage of the True Seeing ring was a few days ago in strip time. He certainly could have swapped it out for a ring of evasion since then. For all we know he could have a pouch with a half-dozen rings of various sorts which he swaps around based on the situation.

[Quartz]

But, I don't know, he could be a combo like Miko was (a few levels of Monk to take some relevant abilities and the rest of the levels is spent in another class, like Fighter).

For Tarquin it makes more sense for him to have a few levels in Fighter or Knight or both and the rest in Monk - plus any Prestige Classes, of course.

[Gift Jeraff]

Hate to be off the current topic, but shouldn't Tarquin have whatever it was that granted him fire protection during his first fight with the order listed?.

Couldn't it have been a protection spell from Malack or Z? We know Z has Protection from Energy. Though that wouldn't explain the divine portion of the damage.

[Living Oxymoron]

Everyone forgets about hands of glory.

I didn't forget about the hand of glory. It's just that I don't believe that such item would be so concealed in a character of this comic.

[Kuulvheysoon]

He is already using two rings: True Seeing and Regeneration.

The Extra Rings feat lets a character wear more than 2 magic rings.

[Kornaki]

The Extra Rings feat lets a character wear more than 2 magic rings.

The one that has a requirement of forge ring and a caster level of 12? Or is there a different one available?

[Living Oxymoron]

The one that has a requirement of forge ring and a caster level of 12? Or is there a different one available?

I did not knew that Extra Rings feat, but an alternative option would be the Additional Magic Item Space feat from the Epic Level Handbook.

[Taelas]

Technically, you can make custom rings that do not take up ring slots.

[RickDaily12]

Vaarsuvius: I have in excess of thirty spells remaining.

Me: Hmmm. That seems too high.

I'll be the first person to immediately say that I hate arguing inductive arguments.

But is it really all that hard to believe that had V's spell slots been explicitly replenished by the fiends, that the Giant would have gone with his earlier move? Why would it be such a stretch to say thirty the first time?

Supposing, of course, we consider the only opponent to the theory against V being level 16 and 24 INT. If the Giant replenished V's slots just before the huge battle, 30 spell slots doesn't strike me as a huge stretch during her fight against Laurin with level 15/23 INT, unless the spell slots were kept the same all along. In that case, those bonus 7-some spells casted before V's capture suddenly make the difference.

Thoughts?

[zimmerwald1915]

Thoughts?

If the Directors replenished V's spell slots, the count would start from 919 instead of 837. Here is what V's spell loadout would look like assuming:

Spoiler: Wizard 15, INT 23, strip 919

Show

8th - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist)
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, - , -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), - , - , - , -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

And here, for comparison:

Spoiler: Wizard 16, INT 24, strip 837

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -, -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -, -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

Assuming Wizard 15, INT 23, and that the Directors replenished V's spells, V would have either 27 or 28 spells remaining at the end of strip 935, depending on whether or not the hand from strip 934 was also the hand from strip 932. Assuming Wizard 16, INT 24, and that the Directors did not replenish V's spells, V would have either 26 or 27 spells remaining at the end of strip 935. Interestingly, V has closer to 25 spells remaining under the higher-level scenario than she does under the spell-replenishment scenario; assuming the hand from 934 is also the hand from 932, she would quite close to 30 spells remaining under the spell-replenishment scenario. Possibly close enough that the Giant wouldn't have felt the need to round down, but that's pushing things.

Here's how the differences in spells she has left by level break down, with a positive number favoring the higher-level scenario, and a negative number favoring the spell-replenishment scenario:

Spoiler

Show

8th 0
7th 2
6th -1
5th -3
4th 0
3rd 1
2nd 0
1st 0
0 0

Higher-level V has remaining two more level 7 spells and one more level 3 spell than spell-replenishment V does (spell-replenishment V has no level 7 spells left), but spell-replenishment V has remaining one more level 6 spell and three more level 5 spells. If V casts any more level 7 spells, we'll have good circumstantial evidence for the higher-level scenario, because spell-replenishment V has no level 7 spell slots remaining and because spell-replenishment V would have no very good reason to prepare her level 7 spells in level 8 slots (though poor decision-making is always a possibility). Conversely, if V starts relying more on level 5 and 6 spells, that would be good circumstantial evidence for the spell-replenishment scenario, since higher-level V has only one slot remaining of each of those spell levels.

If she casts three level 7 and level 8 spells, in any combination, before the end of the day, we will know for sure she has leveled to 16.

[Quartz]

If she casts three level 7 and level 8 spells, in any combination, before the end of the day, we will know for sure she has leveled to 16.

A nitpick: spells are not always announced, and spells can be metamagicked to higher levels, so we might not know that the spells cast are 7th or 8th level.

[Codyage]

I all ready thought I disproved the V's replenished spell slots thing?

V didn't get them replenished as evidenced by this strip here. Panel 3 shows that V only has a "Fly" spell remaining. But we know for a fact V has Overland Flight cast on him (As shown from that morning with him flying around.)

So if V got replenished that means he has a "Fly" and an "Overland Flight" to cast. Overland Flight functions as a "Fly" spell, and since they were trying to escape with their lives, I see no reason why V wouldn't tell Roy he has two spells to enable flight, unless he didn't have them.

So if you say V had his spells replenished, that means he has been holding onto an Overland Flight, when he could have casted it on Elan or Haley so they could escape. They would have been as fast as V, if not faster, and Haley would have been able to aid in combat besides carrying Elan.

So either V has an Overland Flight on his person he can still use (Which he would have lied about, and put his companions in danger to keep secret,) or he wasn't replenished spell slots by the IFCC.

Overland Flight has a 15/16 hour duration right now. It isn't even night time yet, so the Overland Flight from that morning is still going on. He still hasn't needed to refresh it.

Edit: This even says V can use Overland Flight on other people.

[zimmerwald1915]

I all ready thought I disproved the V's replenished spell slots thing?

V didn't get them replenished as evidenced by this strip here. Panel 3 shows that V only has a "Fly" spell remaining. But we know for a fact V has Overland Flight cast on him (As shown from that morning with him flying around.)

So if V got replenished that means he has a "Fly" and an "Overland Flight" to cast. Overland Flight functions as a "Fly" spell, and since they were trying to escape with their lives, I see no reason why V wouldn't tell Roy he has two spells to enable flight, unless he didn't have them.

So if you say V had his spells replenished, that means he has been holding onto an Overland Flight, when he could have casted it on Elan or Haley so they could escape. They would have been as fast as V, if not faster, and Haley would have been able to aid in combat besides carrying Elan.

So either V has an Overland Flight on his person he can still use (Which he would have lied about, and put his companions in danger to keep secret,) or he wasn't replenished spell slots by the IFCC.

Overland Flight has a 15/16 hour duration right now. It isn't even night time yet, so the Overland Flight from that morning is still going on. He still hasn't needed to refresh it.

Edit: This even says V can use Overland Flight on other people.

This assumes the spells V would receive under the spell-replenishment scenario would be the same spells she prepared herself at the beginning of the day, rather than a whole new set of either her choice or, what's more likely in this whole unlikely scenario, the Directors'.

[zimmerwald1915]

A nitpick: spells are not always announced, and spells can be metamagicked to higher levels, so we might not know that the spells cast are 7th or 8th level.

As I said, it doesn't matter. If V casts three level 7 spells, she must be level 16. If V casts two level 7 and one level 8 spell, she must be level 16. If V casts one level 7 and two level 8 spells, she must be level 16.

[Codyage]

This assumes the spells V would receive under the spell-replenishment scenario would be the same spells she prepared herself at the beginning of the day, rather than a whole new set of either her choice or, what's more likely in this whole unlikely scenario, the Directors'.

So either V leveled up to 16 off screen, and put a point in Intelligence, based on the idea of leveling up in a universe similar to D&D related rules?

or

V was refreshed spell slots by the IFCC on the return trip back to the body, either by V's choice or the IFCC's choice of spell selection, based on the idea that since V was healed when he awoke the IFCC either did a Soulsplice to restore the spells (Breaking the contract), or have access to the power to replenish spell slots on a whim, and decided not to mention this to V and let him find out on his own when he regained consciousness. All of this also happening off screen.


Which one of these is the more likely conclusion a regular reader of Order of the Stick will come to? This is without trying to identify V's level, but rather just information they picked up from the story.

[Taelas]

I doubt the "regular reader" has thought much about it, to be honest.

[JustWantedToSay]

A soul is a soul. Splice just means to tie together, and cannot be assumed to be relevant.

Call what happened soul-teleportation, or soul-gating, and you can see it in both cases. The directors used some deific powers to move souls from one plane to another.

If one wizard summons 100ft of rope, and 3 wizards each summon 100 ft of rope and then tie them to an already existing rope, does that mean that the set of wizards spells were that much more powerful? Or does tying a know represent a superfluous detail.

ETA: Of course maybe a soul is not rope, maybe it's raw lumber, or I-Beams made of adamantium, sure tying those into knots would be much more powerful.

I'm not saying that I think replenishment necessarily happened, or anything about how likely it is. All i'm saying it's a possibility that hasn't been eliminated.

And in the end, it's pretty moot anyway, since i mentioned before V could have 2 rings of wizardy that should stack as long as they are different levels.

The important part is not the scenario, it's that we can't say for sure V is 16 and 24 yet.

[zimmerwald1915]

So either V leveled up to 16 off screen, and put a point in Intelligence, based on the idea of leveling up in a universe similar to D&D related rules?

or

V was refreshed spell slots by the IFCC on the return trip back to the body, either by V's choice or the IFCC's choice of spell selection, based on the idea that since V was healed when he awoke the IFCC either did a Soulsplice to restore the spells (Breaking the contract), or have access to the power to replenish spell slots on a whim, and decided not to mention this to V and let him find out on his own when he regained consciousness. All of this also happening off screen.


Which one of these is the more likely conclusion a regular reader of Order of the Stick will come to? This is without trying to identify V's level, but rather just information they picked up from the story.

For better or worse, ever since the institution of the curator system, and almost certainly well before, the thread has operated on a reasonable-doubt standard for inclusion of information, not a preponderance-of-evidevce standard. I happen to think that the persistent doubt is not reasonable, and that V ought to be listed wth 16 levels and 24 int, but it doesn't actually matter what I think.

Fortunately, as I outlined in my post, we can look for further signals that can point us in one direction or another. And there is the possibility that V will cast three level 7 spells (etc.) at some point before the end of the day. Finally, if we get evidence that V leveled to 17 before we can be sure she leveled to 16, we can return to this point and list it as the point she leveled to 16.

[Sniffnoy]

This assumes the spells V would receive under the spell-replenishment scenario would be the same spells she prepared herself at the beginning of the day, rather than a whole new set of either her choice or, what's more likely in this whole unlikely scenario, the Directors'.

I would say, V wasn't expecting to have eir spells replenished -- least of all to have them replenished with spells e wasn't expecting. So I would expect that if either of these were the case, V would have commented on this stroke of good/bad fortune.

[Codyage]

For better or worse, ever since the institution of the curator system, and almost certainly well before, the thread has operated on a reasonable-doubt standard for inclusion of information, not a preponderance-of-evidevce standard. I happen to think that the persistent doubt is not reasonable, and that V ought to be listed wth 16 levels and 24 int, but it doesn't actually matter what I think.

Fortunately, as I outlined in my post, we can look for further signals that can point us in one direction or another. And there is the possibility that V will cast three level 7 spells (etc.) at some point before the end of the day. Finally, if we get evidence that V leveled to 17 before we can be sure she leveled to 16, we can return to this point and list it as the point she leveled to 16.

Fair Enough.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I happen to think that the persistent doubt is not reasonable, and that V ought to be listed wth 16 levels and 24 int...

Just noting that I don't think it's reasonable either. It is virtually impossible that Vaarsuvius's spells were refreshed off-panel and without it being mentioned.

[orrion]

A soul is a soul. Splice just means to tie together, and cannot be assumed to be relevant.

Call what happened soul-teleportation, or soul-gating, and you can see it in both cases. The directors used some deific powers to move souls from one plane to another.

If one wizard summons 100ft of rope, and 3 wizards each summon 100 ft of rope and then tie them to an already existing rope, does that mean that the set of wizards spells were that much more powerful? Or does tying a know represent a superfluous detail.

ETA: Of course maybe a soul is not rope, maybe it's raw lumber, or I-Beams made of adamantium, sure tying those into knots would be much more powerful.

I'm not saying that I think replenishment necessarily happened, or anything about how likely it is. All i'm saying it's a possibility that hasn't been eliminated.

And in the end, it's pretty moot anyway, since i mentioned before V could have 2 rings of wizardy that should stack as long as they are different levels.

The important part is not the scenario, it's that we can't say for sure V is 16 and 24 yet.

Replenishment is eliminated. The only thing we know that replenishes spells is a splice, and a splice did not happen. There's also just no reason for a replenishment, as V wasn't really drained on spells before being taken downstairs. He missed both battles that would have depleted the relevant utility and damaging spells. Replenishment as a conscious narrative device just doesn't fit, especially when we have the Giant on record noting that he didn't put much effort into determining V's remaining spells. A replenishment taking place suggests a level of attention to detail that contradicts existing knowledge.

The second Ring of Wizardry is, well, meh. I can't discount it, I suppose, but I do hate the explanation of "this hidden magic item out of nowhere that we can't say anything about did it!"

[Crusher]

Just noting that I don't think it's reasonable either. It is virtually impossible that Vaarsuvius's spells were refreshed off-panel and without it being mentioned.

I agree as well. It would be the equivalent to Elan producing a rapier that sparkled a little, and after lengthy discussion we decided there were two possible reasons for it:

"Its the rapier Julio gave him, and it got an art upgrade"

or

"Odin manifested to Elan during strip #935 in one of the panels Elan was off-screen and personally gave Elan a new sword and no one thought it was worth mentioning"

The option that doesn't require off-screen deific-level intervention is overwhelmingly more likely. I support listing V as level 16 and with a 24 INT.

The second Ring of Wizardry is, well, meh. I can't discount it, I suppose, but I do hate the explanation of "this hidden magic item out of nowhere that we can't say anything about did it!"

To be fair, that's exactly the argument used to list Xykon at 21+ instead of 28+. Really, the only difference is one that's surprisingly infrequently mentioned, which is that the higher the degree of power a person is implied to have, the higher the level of proof we expect to confirm them as such. Confirming someone to be level 6 requires very modest levels of proof, level 16 requires fairly substantial proof, and level 28 requires extraordinary proof.

Proof overwhelmingly adequate to confirm Kazumi as level 6 could be barely adequate to confirm V as 16 and wholly inadequate to confirm Xykon as 28.

[Codyage]

I agree as well. It would be the equivalent to Elan producing a rapier that sparkled a little, and after lengthy discussion we decided there were two possible reasons for it:

"Its the rapier Julio gave him, and it got an art upgrade"

or

"Odin manifested to Elan during strip #935 in one of the panels Elan was off-screen and personally gave Elan a new sword and no one thought it was worth mentioning"

We have proof that Odin knows Elan through Banjo because of this strip! OMG! Foreshadowing!

[orrion]

To be fair, that's exactly the argument used to list Xykon at 21+ instead of 28+. Really, the only difference is one that's surprisingly infrequently mentioned, which is that the higher the degree of power a person is implied to have, the higher the level of proof we expect to confirm them as such. Confirming someone to be level 6 requires very modest levels of proof, level 16 requires fairly substantial proof, and level 28 requires extraordinary proof.

Proof overwhelmingly adequate to confirm Kazumi as level 6 could be barely adequate to confirm V as 16 and wholly inadequate to confirm Xykon as 28.

At least with Xykon he'd been sitting in Azure City for at least several months and spending time making magic items. And with Tarquin's stuff like the Ring of Evasion it was based on an ability seen in use with no evidence that he was a class that could use it.

Extraordinary proof? "More than a singular piece of evidence" is now extraordinary proof? It's more like the higher level someone is the more ways there are to account for their powers.

Magic items should still be applied skeptically. It's very plausible for Tarquin, somewhat less plausible for Xykon, and V's alleged second ring is out of left field.

[b_jonas]

Edit: This even says V can use Overland Flight on other people.

Ah, nice find. Should we mention that in a note in the first page?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Roy's item list says he has "oil of shillelagh". It's called "shillelagh oil", in the strip and in general D&D.