Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Quartz]

As I said, it doesn't matter. If V casts three level 7 spells, she must be level 16. If V casts two level 7 and one level 8 spell, she must be level 16. If V casts one level 7 and two level 8 spells, she must be level 16.

Actually it does matter, because we may not know that a spell has been metamagicked up to 7th or 8th level, and therefore not count it. A good example is Overland Flight or Fly, cast very early during the day. V may have metamagicked it up to 8th level or 6th level respectively to affect multiple people.

[orrion]

Actually it does matter, because we may not know that a spell has been metamagicked up to 7th or 8th level, and therefore not count it. A good example is Overland Flight or Fly, cast very early during the day. V may have metamagicked it up to 8th level or 6th level respectively to affect multiple people.

Please point out the megamagic feat that allows you to affect more people than what the spell description says. Because I couldn't find it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

[Quartz]

Please point out the megamagic feat that allows you to affect more people than what the spell description says. Because I couldn't find it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

That was just an example: I mooted a possible 'Mass X' metamagic feat upthread. If you want to keep it to the SRD, then a Quickened 4th level spell would use an 8th level slot.

[zimmerwald1915]

That was just an example: I mooted a possible 'Mass X' metamagic feat upthread. If you want to keep it to the SRD, then a Quickened 4th level spell would use an 8th level slot.

And would be incredibly obvious, since it would shortly precede or shortly follow a whole other spell without letting another character get an action in edgewise. Two of V's other three known metamagic feats, Empower Spell and Maximize Spell, also have obvious visual indicators. Observe the difference between lightning bolt and empowered lightning bolt or between lightning bolt and maximized lightning bolt (also used here). Empowering a lightning bolt seems to broaden the central bolt, while Maximizing it seems to broaden the peripheral bolts. Only Extend Spell wouldn't have an obvious visual effect, and, to be blunt, now is not the time of day to be casting Extended spells (except rope trick, which 1) V has never cast before and 2) wouldn't move with the airship). I'm at a loss to imagine why the Giant would have V do such a thing. Well, he could be trolling us, but I'd like to think he'd leave that sort of thing to comments and just write the comic how he wants, without a thought for reader reaction.

Then again, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. If a spell isn't clearly metamagicked, we assume it isn't metamagicked, just like we assume the minimum for everything else. Might we miss a high-level slot being used? Sure, though metamagicked spells tend to be the ones that are called out and not the ones that are cast in the background. Does it matter? Not really. If V casts three level 7 (etc.) spells, without metamagic, we'll know for sure she's leveled to 16. If she casts spells that could be metamagicked but are not clearly so, we're no worse off than we were before.

[Tom Tearcamel]

I’d like to think that being the prophesized hero of a whole plane (albeit a backwater one), could be just the solo quest V needed to earn that level. This is embarrassing to V. Imagine if Elan learned the specifics of V rescuing Princesses, slaying dragons, and restoring the rightful heir to the Throne of the Hidden Valley. The One-Who-Tastes-Less-Like-Garlic… I mean V Would NEVER hear the end of it. Elan would probably compose an epic ballad.

[Hecuba]

Please point out the megamagic feat that allows you to affect more people than what the spell description says. Because I couldn't find it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm

Chain Spell, Complete Arcane page 76.
+3 adjustment

Doesn't work on touch spells though: need to combine with reach spell for that.

Edit: And to a far more narrow extent, split ray.

[orrion]

That was just an example: I mooted a possible 'Mass X' metamagic feat upthread. If you want to keep it to the SRD, then a Quickened 4th level spell would use an 8th level slot.

And what the heck would be the point of Quickening a spell that wasn't used in a combat situation?

[warrl]

A soul is a soul. Splice just means to tie together, and cannot be assumed to be relevant.

Call what happened soul-teleportation, or soul-gating, and you can see it in both cases. The directors used some deific powers to move souls from one plane to another.

If removing a soul from its body and reinserting it replenishes all spell slots, then every cleric, sorcerer, or wizard who can cast 9th-level spells can replenish all spell slots in half an hour, up to 24 48 times per day.

Nope, declaring the verb in a spell's name to be irrelevant doesn't have that effect. An actual "splice" is required, by the best available evidence. Nothing was shown being done to V's soul that can be described as splicing.

Also: if V had all spell slots replenished, there is no way V would have - before casting any Fly-type spells at all, and after casting very few spells of any sort - said "I have one Fly spell left". That wording indicates that either V was almost completely out of spells (which was obviously not the case) or V had initially prepared at least two Fly-type spells but only had one remaining (not compatible with replenished spells).

[Living Oxymoron]

What I am not understanding is why people are assuming that a mere possession is or has the same effects of a Soul Splice.

[Codyage]

If removing a soul from its body and reinserting it replenishes all spell slots, then every cleric, sorcerer, or wizard who can cast 9th-level spells can replenish all spell slots in half an hour, up to 24 times per day.

Nope, declaring the verb in a spell's name to be irrelevant doesn't have that effect. An actual "splice" is required, by the best available evidence. Nothing was shown being done to V's soul that can be described as splicing.

Also: if V had all spell slots replenished, there is no way V would have - before casting any Fly-type spells at all, and after casting very few spells of any sort - said "I have one Fly spell left". That wording indicates that either V was almost completely out of spells (which was obviously not the case) or V had initially prepared at least two Fly-type spells but only had one remaining (not compatible with replenished spells).

Which would make Overland Flight, and the Fly V cast acceptable. Except their is also the "Chance" that the IFCC gave V all the slots back, with spells of their choice.

Which by that logic means whatever spells V casts don't really matter because people can just argue away, "The IFCC GAVE V a Timestop, or Prismatic Spray, or whatever." Because if one can argue the IFCC can replenish spell slots, people can also argue the IFCC can grant spells from V's barred schools, or spells V can't even cast yet due to higher level. We can't pin the power of the IFCC, which means anything that happens to V with any IFCC related things can't help us level wise. So unless through some in-comic source we get told V didn't get spells replenished, then that means until tomorrow in story, we can't use V's spell list to find his level.

What I am not understanding is why people are assuming that a mere possession is or has the same effects of a Soul Splice.

Edit: Since the soul splice can heal V and restore spells, and the IFCC healed V off screen, some people infer that since he was healed, his spells were restored too.



Also, I want to say lets link the latest strip for V's Resilient Sphere, other than SSDT. But as I just said above, The IFCC could have just given V a Resilient Sphere.

[Flame of Anor]

I’d like to think that being the prophesized hero of a whole plane

Note: it's "prophesied", not "prophesized".

[orrion]

Which would make Overland Flight, and the Fly V cast acceptable. Except their is also the "Chance" that the IFCC gave V all the slots back, with spells of their choice.

Which by that logic means whatever spells V casts don't really matter because people can just argue away, "The IFCC GAVE V a Timestop, or Prismatic Spray, or whatever." Because if one can argue the IFCC can replenish spell slots, people can also argue the IFCC can grant spells from V's barred schools, or spells V can't even cast yet due to higher level. We can't pin the power of the IFCC, which means anything that happens to V with any IFCC related things can't help us level wise. So unless through some in-comic source we get told V didn't get spells replenished, then that means until tomorrow in story, we can't use V's spell list to find his level.

That's a pretty tattered curtain you have there.

Edit: Since the soul splice can heal V and restore spells, and the IFCC healed V off screen, some people infer that since he was healed, his spells were restored too.

That's called a propositional fallacy.

[Codyage]

That's a pretty tattered curtain you have there.



That's called a propositional fallacy.

But it is enough to stop V from being pegged at level 16 for right now. That and the second Ring of Wizadry.

[Kalmegil]

Note: it's "prophesied", not "prophesized".

Note: It's also "prophesized". "Frowned on" doesn't mean "wrong."

[zimmerwald1915]

But it is enough to stop V from being pegged at level 16 for right now. That and the second Ring of Wizadry.

We don't actually know that. It's enough to keep certain people arguing about it, to be sure, but the relevant curator hasn't made a decision. Mostly because said curator hasn't been around to make a decision rather than because of the continuing argument.

[orrion]

But it is enough to stop V from being pegged at level 16 for right now. That and the second Ring of Wizadry.

A fallacy and an imaginary ring can be dismissed.

The tattered curtain can be dismissed because we know the Giant wasn't meticulously tracking V's spells. A spell replenishment would mean he was paying attention to V's spells. And saying the replenishment happened without his knowledge is, well, rather silly.

I know the thread is based on reverse engineering, but there's no reason to conjure up things we know the author isn't paying attention to. Both another ring and a spell replenishment fall under that.

[JustWantedToSay]

That's a pretty tattered curtain you have there.



That's called a propositional fallacy.

No it isn't. propositional fallacy applies only to conclusions.


If it rains, the grass is wet.

The grass is wet therefore it must have rained. (Fallacy, because it could have been wet for a different reason, such as a sprinkler)

The grass is wet, which can be cause by rain MIGHT have rained. A possibility, not a fallacy in this case because it doesn't assert a conclusion.

Varsuvius was rejuvenated, which had restored her HP and Spell slots. (And fatigue)

Varsuvius had her HP (and possibly her mood) restored, therefore she MIGHT have been rejuvenated completely. Not a fallacy because it doesn't assert a conclusion.

A possibility we can't eliminate until we see the next soul-ripping, at least.

A spell replenishment would mean he was paying attention to V's spells. And saying the replenishment happened without his knowledge is, well, rather silly.

Fallacy straw man.

If he can estimate the number of spells V used without a refresh, he can estimate the number of spells V used with a refresh. It makes no difference.

[Kalmegil]

The tattered curtain can be dismissed because we know the Giant wasn't meticulously tracking V's spells. A spell replenishment would mean he was paying attention to V's spells. And saying the replenishment happened without his knowledge is, well, rather silly.

Hey, now, it's been definitively established that no new information was provided by the Giant's statements about estimating V's number of spells remaining.

[orrion]

No it isn't. propositional fallacy applies only to conclusions.

The conclusion is obviously that there was a Soul Splice. It was even mentioned in what I quoted.

There's no other ability we know about that does both health and spell replenishment. There's no evidence that another ability can do both and therefore no reason to assume that health replenishment accompanies spell replenishment UNLESS you go with the Splice theory. If you're not going with that theory then you're not even in left field anymore - you've left the stadium.

To put it another way - the speculation about spell replenishment only arises from the Splice theory.

Fallacy straw man.

If he can estimate the number of spells V used without a refresh, he can estimate the number of spells V used with a refresh. It makes no difference.

The point is that there would be no reason to do a spell replenishment in the first place unless some thought was given to V's spells.

[JustWantedToSay]

The conclusion is obviously that there was a Soul Splice. It was even mentioned in what I quoted.

There's no other ability we know about that does both health and spell replenishment. There's no evidence that another ability can do both and therefore no reason to assume that health replenishment accompanies spell replenishment UNLESS you go with the Splice theory. If you're not going with that theory then you're not even in left field anymore - you've left the stadium.

A whole lot of fallacy there.


It rained. The grass is wet, the flowers are wet, the sidewalk is wet.
There was a sprinker. The grass is wet The flowers are wet.
Therefore the sidewalk might be wet.

You yourself are making the prepositional fallacy of Denying the antecedent.

Also there is no ability that the Directors have demonstrated that recovers HP without recovering spell slots as well. Your logic has to cut both ways.

The point is that there would be no reason to do a spell replenishment in the first place unless some thought was given to V's spells.

Agreed, but you're using too narrow vision. The thought to V's spells doesn't have to be given to the current events. It just means that some thought was given to V spells for one of the future soul-rippings.

[Shale]

Along the same lines, we don't know for sure that V was replaced by a Clone after the explosion, but we also don't know that didn't happen. So possibly we should list Vaarsuvius with a lost level, just to be safe.

[orrion]

A whole lot of fallacy there.


It rained. The grass is wet, the flowers are wet, the sidewalk is wet.
There was a sprinker. The grass is wet The flowers are wet.
Therefore the sidewalk might be wet.

You yourself are making the prepositional fallacy of Denying the antecedent.

Also there is no ability that the Directors have demonstrated that recovers HP without recovering spell slots as well. Your logic has to cut both ways.

The problem with applying that fallacy is that I'm not saying there aren't other ways to replenish spells. What I'm saying is that every theory that has thus far been proposed has been based on a particular method (a Soul Splice). That method didn't happen, so everything based upon that method is also false. If you can propose another spell replenishment theory based upon another method, then go ahead - without merely saying "there might be another method."

In your example, there are two things that get stuff wet - rain and the sprinkler. People have proposed that it rained, but nobody has said there was a sprinkler. Tell me what the sprinkler is, and we'll debate it.



There's no basis to assume that any ability they use to restore health also has to restore spell slots.

Cure spells restore health. They don't restore spell slots.

Heck, one of the Directors was healed by another one here.

Agreed, but you're using too narrow vision. The thought to V's spells doesn't have to be given to the current events. It just means that some thought was given to V spells for one of the future soul-rippings.

No, you're assuming some thought was given to V's spells for one of the future soul-rippings to justify your interpretation here. Just stop making assumptions.

[RickDaily12]

We don't actually know that. It's enough to keep certain people arguing about it, to be sure, but the relevant curator hasn't made a decision.

To be honest, I've grown a habit of stating my opinion on this thread, trying to see if I've got rational thought on some point or another, just to get tired as is with re-stating my stances while addressing wild "what ifs" that I just don't care for trying to consider anymore. Given where it is I want to go in my career, I've got no problems with addressing a "reasonable doubt"...

...It's when a claim like "there could be TWO rings of the same item that we've never seen" appear that my personal definition of "reasonable doubt" is breached. I've been trying to work on battles to correctly pick.

But, I really feel like I need to get another word in.


On V having a hidden magic item:

Spoiler

Show

And in the end, it's pretty moot anyway, since i mentioned before V could have 2 rings of wizardy that should stack as long as they are different levels.

The important part is not the scenario, it's that we can't say for sure V is 16 and 24 yet.

This argument may be able to hold for Xykon. Why? Because he's the main villain with a ton of feats that we still don't know about, with a ton of off-screen time and us knowing about every plan he conjures up would make him probably one of the most bland villains on the planet. There is nothing exciting about a villain you can predict.

Protagonists, especially story ones, are an entirely different pile altogether. Sans arrow types, potions, and specific scrolls, there is not a single magic item that we don't know about a member of the OOTS possessing. Scrolls can be knocked off this already, since we're counting the spells V has casted by hand, not off on a script. But every significant piece of equipment, especially magical, have all seen some sort of foreshadowing instance of another. I can't think of a single exception to this rule.

So, no. I'm not willing to grant a main protagonist, like Vaarsuvius, solving a serious issue, like a stronger opponent, with an item we didn't know about beforehand. Why? I'm sure because Rich would hear the 3-worded trope everyone hates, and for the obvious reason that would entail. If he did this, that calling would be totally valid.

This addresses the "what items we don't know about" point.

On the "thread's expectations" of evidence in regards to Vaarsuvius:

Spoiler

Show

To be fair, that's exactly the argument used to list Xykon at 21+ instead of 28+. Really, the only difference is one that's surprisingly infrequently mentioned, which is that the higher the degree of power a person is implied to have, the higher the level of proof we expect to confirm them as such. Confirming someone to be level 6 requires very modest levels of proof, level 16 requires fairly substantial proof, and level 28 requires extraordinary proof.

Proof overwhelmingly adequate to confirm Kazumi as level 6 could be barely adequate to confirm V as 16 and wholly inadequate to confirm Xykon as 28.

Which would make Overland Flight, and the Fly V cast acceptable. Except their is also the "Chance" that the IFCC gave V all the slots back, with spells of their choice.

[snip]

Since the soul splice can heal V and restore spells, and the IFCC healed V off screen, some people infer that since he was healed, his spells were restored too.

Again, briefly conjoining these quotes for this purpose: Vaarsuvius is the main character, and not the main villain. Xykon has so much greater shoes to fill all around because his character must remain fluid and unpredictable at all times. If this rule is broken, then Rich's biggest priority with this story, story drama/development, would be lost in the process. Xykon has the luxury of unpredictable through "what if he had item X that we don't know about" because he is the problem creator of the story. As opposed to Vaarsuvius, who is one of the main problem solvers.

I'll say it again: none of the main characters can be as unpredictable as Xykon, or we risk the dreaded Deus Ex Machina. (Yes, sorry, it had to be said.)

Finally, about the spell-replenishment theory:

Spoiler

Show

Namely, the largest suggestion of this point being V's sudden healing. So, can we explain Blackwing's sudden miracle?

This counterexample severely damages the healing being the factor of some IFCC interference over the likihood that, well, Rich made a small art detail error? This has happened countless times.

That, and the IFCC haven't done anything to Vaarsuvius otherwise that they didn't explain beforehand. Not one single thing. There may be hidden motives involved, but their actions? Not so much this.

Also, as per many in this thread, there has been no splice.

All in all, I'm very much with orrion on this issue. Not as sure about the constant tossing about of the word "fallacy" as has been done over the past several posts, but on his points specifically, I have to agree.

Also, and I can't remember who made this point, but the replenishment theory giving V more spells and suggesting the Giant was giving a running score in his head all imply more detail than what he has directly stated- The Giant explicitly saying he wasn't tracking V's spells frivolously. If he were, five spells between 30 and 25 is a huge oversight in frivolous counting to be making.

So, no. I really don't think there is much of a "reasonable doubt" that V is level 16/24 INT now. But that isn't my call to make. That would be Curator Kurald's.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, and I can't remember who made this point, but the replenishment theory giving V more spells and suggesting the Giant was giving a running score in his head all imply more detail than what he has directly stated- The Giant explicitly saying he wasn't tracking V's spells frivolously. If he were, five spells between 30 and 25 is a huge oversight in frivolous counting to be making.

For the record, that was also orrion.

So, no. I really don't think there is much of a "reasonable doubt" that V is level 16/24 INT now. But that isn't my call to make. That would be Curator Kurald's.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a new argument to make one way or another? Because if we're just waiting on the curator, it might make more sense to limit the amount of back-and-forth to which he has to subject himself in order to come to a decision.

[Flame of Anor]

Note: It's also "prophesized". "Frowned on" doesn't mean "wrong."

Well, it's not frowned on for being right, I can tell you that.

[Steven]

It helps if you point out that the y on the end of prophesy is an I sounds not an E sound like with prophecy.

It's a much cooler sounding word than prophesize if you ask me.

[Matt620]

I'm sure this talk of V is fascinating, but I think I have something to add. I don't know if it's been done yet or not.

In the latest strip, it looks like Laurin is using Energy Adaptation, augmented as an immediate action, to block V's Cone of Cold. There's an aura of light around her, which makes me think it's that one.

[Flame of Anor]

It helps if you point out that the y on the end of prophesy is an I sounds not an E sound like with prophecy.

It's a much cooler sounding word than prophesize if you ask me.

Yes, exactly! Words that end in -ize are a dime a dozen.

[CaDzilla]

For characters of low intelligence, should we set their intelligence score as at least 3-8?

[Shale]

Good catch. Any character with an alignment has an Intelligence of at least 3, and Elan has at least 4 (because it's higher than Thog's).