Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Hecuba]

Do we have anything available that would allow us to make a judgment about how far Tarquin fell (and thus an HP floor by means of the fall damage)?

The only thing I see that gives any ideas is something related to the firing range of an airship's ballista. I'll see if can find anything of the sort (likely Eberron or Shining South).

Edit: Silly me, forgot the cap

[Chronos]

The ship is almost certainly more than 200 feet up, which is where falling damage maxes out: We see him falling past Julio (whose rope is fairly close to vertical at that point), then we have a tall, zoomed out panel with nothing but him falling, Julio being out of frame, before he hits.

Still, the minimum, maximum, and average of 20d6 are far enough separated that I don't feel comfortable inferring too much from it. Elan's "You'll live" probably has some implicit confidence interval associated with it, and even a 99% chance of survival is a lot different from a 100.0000000000% chance of survival. Heck, Elan could have said that even if the chance were close to 50%, if he were trusting in the laws of Drama to ensure the coin would land heads-up for Tarquin.

[Crusher]

Yeah, its way too wide a range to infer much. If Tarquin, as is generally accepted, a low or near epic character, we could probably come up with a stat-sheet in which Tarquin is actually a d4 hp class (secretly a Wizard! Which I could show makes perfect sense with a couple paragraphs of delusional rambling) and yet still has enough hp to guarantee he'd survive the fall damage.

Plus, assuming he's still got the ring of Regeneration, he can safely go to -9 and the ring will keep him alive, right?

[Taelas]

Yeah, its way too wide a range to infer much. If Tarquin, as is generally accepted, a low or near epic character, we could probably come up with a stat-sheet in which Tarquin is actually a d4 hp class (secretly a Wizard! Which I could show makes perfect sense with a couple paragraphs of delusional rambling) and yet still has enough hp to guarantee he'd survive the fall damage.

Plus, assuming he's still got the ring of Regeneration, he can safely go to -9 and the ring will keep him alive, right?

By RAW, no -- ring of regeneration works on an hourly basis, not per round (specifically, you heal your level in HP every hour, instead of every day -- but it cannot be increased via the Heal skill).

Of course, we've seen different from Tarquin's ring already, so RAW is really out of the picture here.

But if he went to -9 and didn't stabilize in that round, he would have died in the next round.

If Tarquin's ring heals him every round, then he doesn't have to worry about bleeding out, as any amount of healing at all stabilizes you. If it doesn't, he can bleed out and die in between heals.

[Douglas]

Think about the timing of the arrows though: Haley used Manyshot to fire them, as seen by the single "TWANG!" sound effect. If she fired them separately, he might be able to use one hand to snatch both, but not simultaneously.

Infinite Deflection doesn't care.

If you like, you can visualize a little star behind every single statement or factoid in the top post, that links to "* or perhaps The Giant used a house rule". Unless there are other ways by RAW for Tarquin to perform his missile snatchery, then Infinite Deflection should remain for him.

I am not saying "maybe The Giant used a house rule", I'm saying "The Giant definitely used a house rule".

The RAW of Infinite Deflection no longer fits what has been shown in comic. There is no RAW way, at all, to explain Tarquin's missile snatchery. By RAW, without Infinite Deflection he couldn't deflect both arrows at all. By RAW, with Infinite Deflection he could deflect both arrows with one hand. What is shown in comic is that he can deflect both arrows but must use both hands to do so. There is literally no RAW way to explain that, so a house rule must be in effect.

[hamishspence]

By RAW, with Infinite Deflection he could deflect both arrows with one hand. What is shown in comic is that he can deflect both arrows but must use both hands to do so.

He's not just deflecting them- he's catching, and holding, each.

The Snatch Arrows feat requires a free hand to use:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows

as does the Deflect Arrows feat:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows

and when you take into account that Infinite Deflection allows one to deflect infinite times, but otherwise works as Deflect Arrows:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...niteDeflection

it seems that he "Snatched" both arrows- and ended up with no free hands.

[Shale]

Infinite Deflection still doesn't let you catch more arrows than you have free hands. The problem is that he should have been able to simply deflect them without catching them, and that doesn't seem to have been an option. The fact that Haley yelled "Catch!" doesn't compel him to actually catch them.

[hamishspence]

Infinite Deflection still doesn't let you catch more arrows than you have free hands. The problem is that he should have been able to simply deflect them without catching them, and that doesn't seem to have been an option. The fact that Haley yelled "Catch!" doesn't compel him to actually catch them.

"Tarquin acted suboptimally" is still a RAW possible action though.

[Flame of Anor]

"Tarquin acted suboptimally" is still a RAW possible action though.

Considering his character, it's a very likely possible action.

[Shale]

I'm perfectly fine assuming that the characters' builds are anything but optimal, but that scene just doesn't work if you assume that Tarquin could have parried both arrows without letting go of the ship, completely ruining Haley's gambit, but he forgot.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm perfectly fine assuming that the characters' builds are anything but optimal, but that scene just doesn't work if you assume that Tarquin could have parried both arrows without letting go of the ship, completely ruining Haley's gambit, but he forgot.

Sure it does. The scene just requires you to believe that Haley, in the moment, out-manipulated and out-smarted Tarquin. Is that so hard to accept?

[Shale]

So she fired a pair of arrows at him on the assumption that he had to either catch them or take the hit, and she was wrong, but due to her cunning strategy of saying "catch" he forgot about his epic feat? That's not outsmarting anybody, that's Tarquin grabbing an Idiot Ball.

[Porthos]

Gloves of Arrow Snaring? I recall it was brought up before.

Though, I suppose that doesn't answer how he could have used it earlier today. So never mind that. Unless we want to go down the route of some sort of crafted magic item that lets him use it more than twice a day.

[Caex]

So she fired a pair of arrows at him on the assumption that he had to either catch them or take the hit, and she was wrong, but due to her cunning strategy of saying "catch" he forgot about his epic feat? That's not outsmarting anybody, that's Tarquin grabbing an Idiot Ball.

We don't need to assume Haley believed he had to catch them in order to stop them. Haley expecting him to grab the arrows--with his instantaneous, heat of the moment reaction to being called out and having arrows flying at his face being the more showy grabbing them rather than the less climactic swatting them aside--seems like a reasonable reading of his character.

We've never seen him swat any arrows rather than catching them. This could speak to him having some homebrewed ability, or it could speak to his own personal preference for catching, which could mean that in the heat of the moment his gut reaction would be to catch, even if it wound up being a poor choice.

[AKA_Bait]

So she fired a pair of arrows at him on the assumption that he had to either catch them or take the hit, and she was wrong, but due to her cunning strategy of saying "catch" he forgot about his epic feat? That's not outsmarting anybody, that's Tarquin grabbing an Idiot Ball.

No more so than his grabbing the smokestick arrow. It seems like Tarquin snatches arrows shot at him by reflex. As I understand it, he's using his epic feat in conjunction with snatch arrows to be able to do that. I don't think it's unbelievable that he got snared by his own habit of showing off.

Ninja'd

[Zweisteine]

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say Tarquin caught the arrows because he didn't want them to be stuck in his face.

The sneak attack damage (he's got no dex bonus to AC while dangling, probably) would not have been negligible. Of course, he'd probably have survived (he survived the fall, which probably dealt more damage), but if either were a critical hit...

[JustWantedToSay]

Should point out that with Attack of Opportunities we already have precedent for things that are optional in D&D, being mandatory in OotS.

IE. If he has arrow snatching and infinite deflection, he might be compelled to catch one arrow per free hand under OotS rules.

[137beth]

Should point out that with Attack of Opportunities we already have precedent for things that are optional in D&D, being mandatory in OotS.

IE. If he has arrow snatching and infinite deflection, he might be compelled to catch one arrow per free hand under OotS rules.

I don't see anything to suggest that the kobold was required to make AoOs against Belkar, I think he just wanted to. Non-optional drawbacks in feats rarely if ever exist, anyways. I don't think we should assume that infinite deflection is somehow mandatory in OOTS.

[JustWantedToSay]

I don't see anything to suggest that the kobold was required to make AoOs against Belkar, I think he just wanted to. Non-optional drawbacks in feats rarely if ever exist, anyways. I don't think we should assume that infinite deflection is somehow mandatory in OOTS.

Even if you don't see it in that image. The thread already has been over it:

Faq 1st post

• : If a character makes a special attack like grappling, and his victim does not make an attack of opportunity, can that be evidence of a feat like Improved Grapple?
  Yes, assuming the victim is armed, and otherwise capable of making AOOs. It is clear that the rules for attacks of opportunity are used in the comic, and there is no reason to assume that grappling/tripping/sundering is an exception.

--If an attack of opportunity were optional, then the fact that it's missing couldn't not be used as evidence for improved grapple, etc.

[SavageWombat]

I think it's pretty clear that the people trying to defend Infinite Deflection are now the ones grasping at straws.

Tarquin clearly has an unnamed ability that allows him to catch two arrows if he has two hands free - I personally like the magic item, but that's just personal taste - and not a feat that would have allowed him to stay on the ship by using only one hand.

And therefore the presumption that he is epic level is no longer supported.

It's like with Roy and the unnamed anti-caster feat - it sounds like he has a particular feat, but the evidence doesn't match the rules text, so we don't put it in his write-up that way.

[Emanick]

Tarquin clearly has an unnamed ability that allows him to catch two arrows if he has two hands free - I personally like the magic item, but that's just personal taste - and not a feat that would have allowed him to stay on the ship by using only one hand.

Or Tarquin made a mistake (which, frankly, is a mistake I would make too if I saw two arrows coming right at my eyes). It's really not at all grasping at straws to take that possibility into consideration.

[Kurald Galain]

Ok, I'm catching up with Christmas posts now.

Added +4/+2 daggers, bounding attack to Belkar; two gemstones to Haley; Tarquin's whip to Vaarsuvius. Updated Elan's Silent Image. Added Team Tarquin to the list of groups in the FAQ. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that everybody has papers for the City of Blood (except Elan, who dropped his). Can we have a source comic for that?

I suggest waiting for the next few comics to see if Bloodfeast sticks around and if it's useful writing up stats for him; theoretically he could become Belkar's mount or something.

In earlier discussion it was mentioned that Kraagor must be non-evil because Soon associates with him.

It may be nice to have a different name for Team Tarquin, because recent posts by The Giant indicate that the only reason people think it's his team is because Tarquin says so, and he exaggerates his own importance. That said, the name is catchy so we may as well stick with it. Thoughts? Speaking of Tarquin, there was discussion earlier that his dagger would need to be adamantite, and that he may have Combat Brute or Knockdown feats; perhaps this is worth analyzing further.

[RNGgod]

It may be nice to have a different name for Team Tarquin, because recent posts by The Giant indicate that the only reason people think it's his team is because Tarquin says so, and he exaggerates his own importance. That said, the name is catchy so we may as well stick with it. Thoughts? Speaking of Tarquin, there was discussion earlier that his dagger would need to be adamantite, and that he may have Combat Brute or Knockdown feats; perhaps this is worth analyzing further.

Last time I checked there was a bit of a fad in calling it the Laurinear Guild, but I don't think's the best way to go, if only to avoid confusion.

What about Three Empire Conspiracy? Or would that imply including everyone in the empires who knows about the scheme, not just the six?

[RMS Oceanic]

I know that "Team Tarquin" isn't strictly accurate given Giant's explanation of Tarquin's overinflated opinion about himself, but I think it's still the most popular name on the wider forums, given that most of our interactions with his team have been framed around him. I don't see the need to reinvent the wheel unless we discover what he actually calls the team. Also I like alliteration.

What are your thoughts on the Vaarsuvius number crunching and belief they may have reached level 16?

[zimmerwald1915]

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that everybody has papers for the City of Blood (except Elan, who dropped his). Can we have a source comic for that?

Please change any references to the "City of Blood" to "Bleedingham." It's been mentioned by name in several strips.

It may be nice to have a different name for Team Tarquin, because recent posts by The Giant indicate that the only reason people think it's his team is because Tarquin says so, and he exaggerates his own importance. That said, the name is catchy so we may as well stick with it. Thoughts? Speaking of Tarquin, there was discussion earlier that his dagger would need to be adamantite, and that he may have Combat Brute or Knockdown feats; perhaps this is worth analyzing further.

Last time I checked there was a bit of a fad in calling it the Laurinear Guild, but I don't think's the best way to go, if only to avoid confusion.

What about Three Empire Conspiracy? Or would that imply including everyone in the empires who knows about the scheme, not just the six?

Pretty sure Kish is the only one who has stuck with "Laurinear Guild." And I'm not sure we should be naming groups/factions after their members or leaders. The Order of the Stick, the Order of the Scribble, the Linear Guild, the Sapphire Guard, the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission, Team Evil...none are named after their members or leaders.

Of course, the group doesn't have a "canon" name like the others I mentioned, so maybe we can derive one from the way people talk about them. Tarquin in this strip calls them "advisers" and "handlers". Ian in the same strip calls their operation a "two-man con." In this strip Nale identifies "business before pleasure" as their cardinal rule. And apparently it was the Treasure of Sdigiji that allowed them to recruit their initial forces. Maybe something can be cobbled together out of that?¹

Alternatively, "Vector Cabal" used to be popular.

¹EDIT: Actually, "The Business Plot" would be a decent name if it didn't refer to a real life historical event. Shame.

[MReav]

Would it be possible to consider Sabine has the Soul Eater PrC or at least dipped in it? She's repeatedly shown being able to drain people with just her claws, which is not standard for a succubus. She's only ever seen using the 1st level ability, drain levels with her touch, so she probably only has one level (otherwise, some if not all of the bonuses Pompey gave her would be superfluous).

As for the pre-reqs:
Base Attack Bonus: +5 (fulfilled with 6 Outsider HD that come standard with Succubi)
Alignment: Any evil (goes without saying)
Knowledge Arcana: 2 Ranks (could be done with the Knowledge (any one) Succubi come standard with, or just some cross-class, as rogues and Outsiders have boatloads of skill points).
Feats: Alertness and Weapon Focus: Natural Weapon (While we have no real evidence for Alertness, her preference for melee combat could be interpreted as being willing to take the Weapon Focus feat).
Any living nonhumanoid (is an Outsider)

[Rakoa]

I think that Team Tarquin, while not accurate in the comic itself, works fine as far as identification of the group goes. It's established, it's in common use, might as well leave it be if it works. No need to fix something that isn't broken.

[Porthos]

I think that Team Tarquin, while not accurate in the comic itself, works fine as far as identification of the group goes. It's established, it's in common use, might as well leave it be if it works. No need to fix something that isn't broken.

Pretty much this. Using a (mostly) recognizable already-used-by-fandom name seems preferable than trying to invent our own term that posters won't recognize immediately.

If the team ever gets a name from either in-comic or from Rich, then we change it. Until then, I think we should go with familiarity.

[137beth]

For the name of Team Tarquin--
Xykon isn't in control of, or even allied with, every Evil character in the OOTS-verse, but that hasn't stopped us from calling his group Team Evil. I don't think there's a problem with calling the team Tarquin is on "Team Tarquin".
Although, now that it's been brought up, I do like the Lauriniar Guild

[orrion]

Would it be possible to consider Sabine has the Soul Eater PrC or at least dipped in it? She's repeatedly shown being able to drain people with just her claws, which is not standard for a succubus. She's only ever seen using the 1st level ability, drain levels with her touch, so she probably only has one level (otherwise, some if not all of the bonuses Pompey gave her would be superfluous).

As for the pre-reqs:
Base Attack Bonus: +5 (fulfilled with 6 Outsider HD that come standard with Outsiders)
Alignment: Any evil (goes without saying)
Knowledge Arcana: 2 Ranks (could be done with the Knowledge (any one) Succubi come standard with, or just some cross-class, as rogues and Outsiders have boatloads of skill points).
Feats: Alertness and Weapon Focus: Natural Weapon (While we have no real evidence for Alertness, her preference for melee combat could be interpreted as being willing to take the Weapon Focus feat).
Any living nonhumanoid (is an Outsider)

Where specifically are you getting those pre-reqs? I'm not seeing the same ones in either the D&DWiki 3.5 or the Pathfinder variants, though I'm assuming you're going with some 3.5 entry because Sabine doesn't qualify for the Pathfinder one at all.

Also, read this from the srd20 description of a succubus -

A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 21 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.