Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[zimmerwald1915]

Where specifically are you getting those pre-reqs? I'm not seeing the same ones in either the D&DWiki 3.5 or the Pathfinder variants, though I'm assuming you're going with some 3.5 entry because Sabine doesn't qualify for the Pathfinder one at all.

It's in the Book of Vile Darkness.

[MReav]

Where specifically are you getting those pre-reqs? I'm not seeing the same ones in either the D&DWiki 3.5 or the Pathfinder variants, though I'm assuming you're going with some 3.5 entry because Sabine doesn't qualify for the Pathfinder one at all.

It's in the Book of Vile Darkness.

Thanks zimmerwald. I thought I mentioned that. Brainfart.

Also, read this from the srd20 description of a succubus -

A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 21 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

I don't see your point, especially the bolded bit. Sabine showcases the ability to drain with a touch here and here, and only starts using the kiss restriction in this comic. The Soul Eater PrC is a class that she easily qualifies for that grants her those abilities, so I'm suggesting that she might have taken it.

[orrion]

I don't see your point, especially the bolded bit. Sabine showcases the ability to drain with a touch here and here, and only starts using the kiss restriction in this comic. The Soul Eater PrC is a class that she easily qualifies for that grants her those abilities, so I'm suggesting that she might have taken it.

The point is that the description allows a succubus to do a drain without a kiss if they first initiate a grapple. After that, a kiss or "embrace" counts. The various cited comics can be attributed to artistic license and/or rules leniency.

I just think we'd need to see an explicit Soul Eater ability to change the entry, or a reference to Sabine having eaten part of her own soul or some such.

[Living Oxymoron]

About Tarquin's use of snatch arrows, a few points:

-Until now, he has been only snatching them, never deflecting, what reinforces the use of magic items;

-...but the only known magic item that grants such thing are the Gloves of Arrow Snaring, which only allows to do this two times per day, and Tarquin already did this six times;

-When he finally snatched more than one arrow, he snatched only two. So some of us believed that there was an alternative rule of OotS world that allowed someone able to snatch arrows to snatch with each hand... but the fact is that such rule doesn't seem to exist in any book or manual of D&D and we should be fitting this comic into the rules of D&D;

-Another thing that made some of us believe in the alternative rule above was the aforementioned scene, where Tarquin is seen catching two arrows for the first time. This scene is still intriguing because apparently she aimed her attack on Miron, but even so Tarquin manages to snatch two arrows. There was a theory that the optional cover rule of the DMG was used, so Haley missed two arrows due to the cover penalty on her attack rolls caused by Tarquin, and the arrows hit him, who could snatch without problem. Sure, there was a trend that believed that she divided the attacks between T and Miron, but it seems unlikely since she already knew that Tarquin could snatch her arrows.

-Now the problem is the most recent comic (936) in which Tarquin used the two hands to snatch the two arrows shot at him to the cost of his stability, what apparently implies a limitation of his ability of snatching arrows. But you have to consider some things:

1- Haley has the Manyshot feat since the earlier adventures;
2- Haley is actually using Manyshot to shoot two arrows at once against Tarquin;
3- Tarquin had no choice but to snatch both arrows with both hands, since if he tried to deflect with one hand that would just stop one arrow.

[MReav]

The point is that the description allows a succubus to do a drain without a kiss if they first initiate a grapple. After that, a kiss or "embrace" counts. The various cited comics can be attributed to artistic license and/or rules leniency.

I assumed the "embrace" was the act of passion mentioned earlier in the entry, that the grapple was to let the Succubus be able to kiss the person in the first place.

I just think we'd need to see an explicit Soul Eater ability to change the entry

Ability to drain levels by touch is a Soul Eater ability. It is in fact the first one they get (hence why I think she dipped in it).

or a reference to Sabine having eaten part of her own soul or some such.

Edit: Soul Eaters eat other people's souls, not their own. And if you want proof of that:

"Mmmmm... Your life energy has a deep, woodsy flavor, with just of hint of sage and no bitter aftertaste."

To some extent, I don't truly believe she actually has the class and that the abilities she was using was artistic license, but she fits so many of the criterion that she could easily be one.

[Douglas]

3- Tarquin had no choice but to snatch both arrows with both hands, since if he tried to deflect with one hand that would just stop one arrow.

If he had Infinite Deflection, this would not be true regardless of Haley's use of Manyshot.

[Shale]

Infinite Deflection allows you to block unlimited arrows with a single free hand. Infinite Snatch Arrows only works on two at a time, though, because once you catch an arrow that hand isn't free anymore.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok, I'm catching up with Christmas posts now.

You have my sympathy. Been there, done that.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that everybody has papers for the City of Blood (except Elan, who dropped his). Can we have a source comic for that?

Durkon getting papers. Elan dropping his. I can't find the comic that gives Elan, Haley and V papers, but I vaguely remember Tarquin telling his secretary to draft them.

Edit: Found it

Note that Belkar and Roy were not included. They did not get papers, unless they got them after the arena scene. (I've checked that aprt, and found no mention of access papers. There is a few pardon papers, but only Haley's uncle seems to have grabbed one).

It may be nice to have a different name for Team Tarquin

I can't think of a recognisable name that would work, and I see that no-one else does, either. Team Tarquin is inaccurate, but IMnpHO will do until Rich gives us their official "Order of [silly object]" name.

--------

FWIW, I find MReav's argument in favour of Sabine having taken a one-level dip into Soul Eating very persuasive.

Grey Wolf

[MReav]

FWIW, I find MReav's argument in favour of Sabine having taken a one-level dip into Soul Eating very persuasive.

Grey Wolf

Thanks. Again, I think she doesn't actually have it since earlier comics would generally limit itself to the SRD and anything that didn't fit was explicitly poked fun at (though her ability to drain by touch is not a typical Succubus ability, which could help explain the initial ambiguity), and the use of the Kiss to drain Elan was Rich's attempts to fit Sabine within the old rules, but the class is an easy fit that it could at least fit into a "proposed" class.

[Flame of Anor]

FWIW, I find MReav's argument in favour of Sabine having taken a one-level dip into Soul Eating very persuasive.

Grey Wolf

I rather agree. The art doesn't really look like it's showing a grapple in the comics pointed out.

[Rakoa]

I think Mreav's proposition definitely explains Sabine. But can anyone think of a simpler explanation that would sum up the discrepancy? I can't, off the top of my head.

[SavageWombat]

I think Sabine has a package or class like Soul Eater, but we don't know that it is that class.

[Grey Watcher]

I think Sabine has a package or class like Soul Eater, but we don't know that it is that class.

Heck, for all we know, it's a homebrew feat that allows her to use her energy drain with any touch, not just kisses and "acts of passion".

[Shale]

Or Rich just applies level draining touch attacks broadly - for instance, anybody Malack touched got a black aura even when he was clearly not using a slam attack.

[CaDzilla]

She's a shapeshifter. She just grows lips on her hands and touches her opponents with them.

[Flame of Anor]

Heck, for all we know, it's a homebrew feat that allows her to use her energy drain with any touch, not just kisses and "acts of passion".

We can't just dismiss everything with "Oh, it could also be homebrew." If there's a plausible RAW explanation, we should go with that.

[Steven]

I agree. This thread is about finding RAW explanations for what happens in comic.

By RAW Soul Eater, as described by MReav, is a pretty darn good explanation of what we see with Sabine.

[Living Oxymoron]

If he had Infinite Deflection, this would not be true regardless of Haley's use of Manyshot.

In game logic, yes, you are right. However, I'm afraid that only this kind of logic isn't enough to explain what happened there. If we apply real world logic to that scene, we can see that one could not deflect an arrow with just one hand without being hit by the other, since both arrows were shot simultaneously and had the same speed. If they were shot consecutively, that scene would have been different and Tarquin could deflect the two arrows in sequence, even using only one hand.

So Haley's use of Manyshot was intentional: she wanted to leave Tarquin with no choice but to grab both arrows to not be hit by at least one of them.

[Seward]

If this was Pathfinder I'd say Tarquin got Snatch Arrows as a Monk Bonus feat (thus not required to take the deflect arrows prereq).

I'm not up on all the possible PRC options in 3.5 (I used to be pretty good, but haven't played that game since Living Greyhawk ended) but even if none offer this as a bonus feat, there is always the possibility of some OOTS PRC in the vein of Dashing Swordsman for Tarquin could easily grant a snatch-arrows-only bonus feat that lets you do it once for each free hand. (an Ogrillon with that feat could snatch 6 arrows maybe).

By far this is the most likely option. Infinite deflection is considerably better than what Tarquin has done for his own defense but is inferior as well - Tarquin is able to snatch arrows aimed at people other than himself (ambush scene caught one aimed at Nale, plus caught two aimed at Miron in the chase scene). Infinite deflection doesn't allow that, nor does normal missile deflection or snatch arrows.

So assume a PRC class ability/bonus feat that allows snatch arrows on any missile incoming within his reach, up to the limit of his hands free, but it is always a snatch, you can't do a mere deflection.

So in his situation, Tarquin either eats the sneak attack (which he respects given his reaction to Haley's earlier stab) while remaining stuck on the side or alternately catches the missiles and trusts his formidable reflex save to catch onto the side again (as has already worked once).

It in fact works (he doesn't fall, after all) but GM rules his new handhold is lower down than his original (as it shouldn't be as good as the reflex save he made to catch the rail when first pushed over when he started out on deck) and the climb check is much harder to get on deck than it was before. Hence the "help me up" dialog.

[b_jonas]

Gloves of Arrow Snaring? I recall it was brought up before.

Tarquin clearly isn't wearing gloves anyway. Look at Thor in any strip to see what gloves are drawn like in OotS.

As for why Tarquin has caught the arrows, I think he did consider just turning his head away to have the arrows pierce the back of his head instead of his eyes, but then he's decided that the story wanted Haley to best him this time so he gave in and caught the arrows and give Elan the choice to save him. This is similar to how Durkon has accepted in #201 that Thor intended Miko to capture the Order. In the end, Tarquin chose to catch the arrows for role-playing reasons, he wasn't compelled to do it by rules.

[Chronos]

We already know that Tarquin acted suboptimally there, because it would have been considerably better for him to just take one or even both of the arrows. The damage from even both arrows is considerably lower than the damage from falling: By my count, 2d8+2d6+12 (or 1d8+1d6+6 if he only caught one) versus 20d6. Haley would not have had sneak attack damage because, even if we count him as having lost his dex to AC, he also had cover from her, and you can't sneak attack a target that has cover.

On Sabine, Soul Eater is a good thought, but I think that homebrew really is the simplest option here. We already know that Sabine is houseruled to at least some extent, since she also (for example) can Plane Shift 1/day, something that no fiend in any of the books can do (at least, not without a bunch of class levels). Plus, every single one of the outsiders who's appeared in the strip enough to say anything about them seems to have been houseruled in some significant way or another-- Maybe Rich just likes His Outsiders to be Different.

Oh, and if Oceanic wants an official tally on Vaarsuvius's level, put me in the column for "E's now level 16 and increased es Int".

[Grey Watcher]

She's a shapeshifter. She just grows lips on her hands and touches her opponents with them.

This is both disturbing and hilarious.

We can't just dismiss everything with "Oh, it could also be homebrew." If there's a plausible RAW explanation, we should go with that.

You're right. I guess I was just responding to the proposal that she has "something like Soul Eater that is not Soul Eater", which is similarly going down the homebrew rabbit hole. Plus, we have precedent that BoVD is in play in this setting, since Redcloak used it when creating the Xykon decoys.

[illyahr]

I think the Rule of Story applies to Tarquin and the arrows. This seems to be a case of story>rules.

Soul Eater sounds like a plausible explanation for Sabine's abilities. Given her comments to Roy about the flavor of his soul, it seems likely.

[Living Oxymoron]

We already know that Tarquin acted suboptimally there, because it would have been considerably better for him to just take one or even both of the arrows. The damage from even both arrows is considerably lower than the damage from falling: By my count, 2d8+2d6+12 (or 1d8+1d6+6 if he only caught one) versus 20d6. Haley would not have had sneak attack damage because, even if we count him as having lost his dex to AC, he also had cover from her, and you can't sneak attack a target that has cover.

I think we should consider the possibility that the damage of one or two arrows could destabilize him to the point he could not hang on the ship anymore. And judging from his wounds when he fell, he knew that maybe he could not resist to the combined damage of the first sneak attack, one or two arrows AND of the falling. Of course, that if we ignore that the arrows were aimed directly against his head, but we are trying to follow the game logic here.

Another thing: while I do not believe that the arrows could be sneak attacks, it is not impossible that they were such just because Tarquin had cover. Actually, sneak attacks cannot work on targets under concealment, not cover.

[Shale]

And if one of them tripped an Icy Burst, god only knows what happens then.

[SavageWombat]

My understanding is this - Tarquin was climbing, therefore lost his Dex bonus to AC - thus any attacks against him would be sneak attacks.

Anyone with better rules-fu than mine who wishes to gainsay this may do so.

[illyahr]

My understanding is this - Tarquin was climbing, therefore lost his Dex bonus to AC - thus any attacks against him would be sneak attacks.

Anyone with better rules-fu than mine who wishes to gainsay this may do so.

No, you're correct on that one. Anyone balancing, climbing, crawling, or squeezing between something is considered Flat-Footed.

[Kornaki]

For the sake of pedantry, isn't there a feat that allows people to fire bows with their feet? I believe the purpose of it was for flying creatures to get bonus damage when shooting down at ground targets.

[illyahr]

For the sake of pedantry, isn't there a feat that allows people to fire bows with their feet? I believe the purpose of it was for flying creatures to get bonus damage when shooting down at ground targets.

Not a Feat that I know of, but the Footbow from RoW allowed a Killoren to use it in flight, and the Feat Plunging Shot allows a character to deal extra damage when the fire from above their target.

[Kornaki]

Ah, I think it was the footbow I was thinking of. Carry on then.