Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Rakoa]

No, you're correct on that one. Anyone balancing, climbing, crawling, or squeezing between something is considered Flat-Footed.

I believe it was just mentioned above by Chronos, though, that a target with cover cannot be Sneak Attacked (which Tarquin did have).

[Shale]

With concealment, not cover. If the cover protected all of Tarquin's vital organs he would also be immune, but his eyes and brain count as vital.

[Quartz]

For the sake of pedantry, isn't there a feat that allows people to fire bows with their feet?

Would that be Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Footbow?

But anyway, Haley's high enough level to be able to cope with the penalty imposed by using an improvised weapon (or a weapon in an improvised manner).

[illyahr]

I believe it was just mentioned above by Chronos, though, that a target with cover cannot be Sneak Attacked (which Tarquin did have).

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

The head is a vital area, and only total, not partial, cover prevents an attack. Only concealment prevents sneak attack.

[DLcygnet]

After hearing V talk about having 25+ non-level-0 spells left, I actually went back and counted his/her spells cast so far this very very long day. Here's what I came up with, in semi-backwards order:

1 Resilient Sphere - lvl 4
2 Dimensional Anchor - lvl 4
3 Forcecage - lvl 7
4 Cone of Cold - lvl 5
5 Mage Hand - lvl 0 (Questionable; Only 5 lbs of force to knock over T?)
6 Disintegrate - lvl 6
7 Prismatic Spray - lvl 7
8 Lightning Bolt -lvl 3
9 Fly (Haley) - lvl 3
10 Chain Lightning - lvl 6
11 Lightning Bolt - lvl 3
12 Stoneskin (Self) - lvl 4
13 Fly (Self, After Fiends) - lvl 3
14 Fireball - lvl 3
15 Wall of Fire - lvl 4
16 Prot. from Arrows (Belkar) - lvl 2
17 Fly (Self, Prior to Fiends) - lvl 3
18 Mage Hand - lvl 0
19 Passwall - lvl 5
20 Fly (Self, Leaving Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing) - lvl 3

As a level 15, 16 or 17 Wizard (with 23 or 24 Int), V should only have 5-6 lvl 3 spells (7 were cast), therefore s/he's got a Ring of Wizardry III equipped (not IV). EDIT: Unless... one of those spells was extended or maximized, etc. making the effective level higher. *sigh*

Also, since s/he cast at least 18 non-cantrip spells and has 25+ left, s/he either needs to be level 17 to cover all those slots, or s/he is level 16 and cast at least one spell off a scroll or item somehow (2 if one Mage Hand is actually Grasping Hand).

Anybody have a different count?

[illyahr]

zimmerwald actually had a fairly comprehensive count a few pages back. Did you see that one? It was one of the founding proofs that is being used to argue that V is level 16 with 24 Int.

[DLcygnet]

Yes, thank you, I found it.

Spoiler

Show

Here are the spells V has cast today, sorted by level and labeled by strip, under the assumptions that she and Durkon prepared spells between strips 836 and 837 (we know Durkon did, for Elan's plan's sake, so why wouldn't she?) and that her ring of wizardry is a ring of wizardry III.

Spoiler: First, assuming level 15 and 23 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist)
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

Spoiler: Second, assuming level 16 and 23 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

Spoiler: And finally, assuming level 16 and 24 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -, -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -, -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

If V has 15 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 22 or 23 spells, not including cantrips, remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin, depending on whether the hand in 934 was a new spell or a spell that had stuck around. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 24 or 25 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24, she would have had either 26 or 27 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. In order for V to be telling the truth, she must have 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24.

It looks like he's missing several fly spells and I'm missing 1 lightning bolt (&quickened expeditious retreat???). I still count less than 25 non-zero spell slots left.

[Shale]

Re: Fly, you're assuming that V doesn't simply have Overland Flight active all the time.

[zimmerwald1915]

It looks like he's missing several fly spells

That's partly because you're starting the count earlier than I am. I assumed V prepared spells, along with Durkon, between strips 836 and 837. You seem to be assuming that V prepared spells some time before strip 835. You're also counting a number of overland flight spells, including the ones she cast on Belkar, Durkon, and herself after leaving the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing, and the one she cast on herself before strip 837 (and which persisted after Cedric's possession) as fly spells.

EDIT: partially ninja'd. Serves me right for wanting to get my citations correct.

[Sylthia]

After hearing V talk about having 25+ non-level-0 spells left, I actually went back and counted his/her spells cast so far this very very long day. Here's what I came up with, in semi-backwards order:

1 Resilient Sphere - lvl 4
2 Dimensional Anchor - lvl 4
3 Forcecage - lvl 7
4 Cone of Cold - lvl 5
5 Mage Hand - lvl 0 (Questionable; Only 5 lbs of force to knock over T?)
6 Disintegrate - lvl 6
7 Prismatic Spray - lvl 7
8 Lightning Bolt -lvl 3
9 Fly (Haley) - lvl 3
10 Chain Lightning - lvl 6
11 Lightning Bolt - lvl 3
12 Stoneskin (Self) - lvl 4
13 Fly (Self, After Fiends) - lvl 3
14 Fireball - lvl 3
15 Wall of Fire - lvl 4
16 Prot. from Arrows (Belkar) - lvl 2
17 Fly (Self, Prior to Fiends) - lvl 3
18 Mage Hand - lvl 0
19 Passwall - lvl 5
20 Fly (Self, Leaving Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing) - lvl 3

As a level 15, 16 or 17 Wizard (with 23 or 24 Int), V should only have 5-6 lvl 3 spells (7 were cast), therefore s/he's got a Ring of Wizardry III equipped (not IV). EDIT: Unless... one of those spells was extended or maximized, etc. making the effective level higher. *sigh*

Also, since s/he cast at least 18 non-cantrip spells and has 25+ left, s/he either needs to be level 17 to cover all those slots, or s/he is level 16 and cast at least one spell off a scroll or item somehow (2 if one Mage Hand is actually Grasping Hand).

Anybody have a different count?

I think the Mage Hands are more likely Bugsy's (or whatever non-WOTC version) Somethinging Hand

[zimmerwald1915]

I think the Mage Hands are more likely Bugsy's (or whatever non-WOTC version) Somethinging Hand

By my count V cast three Bugsby's hand spells since strip 837. The spell she cast in strip 896 has to be Bugsby's clenched fist; indeed, strip 896 has already been linked as proof that V knows that spell. Knocking on the wall would require an attack roll, albeit one that would be more difficult to miss than to hit. Bugsby's clenched fist is the lowest-level Bugsby's hand spell that allows an attack roll, and is of a spell level - 8th - that we know V can cast. The spell she cast in strip 932 ought to be bugsby's grasping hand, which is the lowest-level Bugsby's hand spell that can make the grapple combat maneuver necessary to grab onto Roy. Before today I had thought it ambiguous whether the spell in strip 934 was a new spell or a continuation of the previous grasping hand, but I no longer think so. Observe that while one of the spells is active there is a dweomer connecting V's hand to the force construct created by the spell. In the second panel of strip 933, that dweomer is no longer present. The 13th, 14th, and 15th panels of strip 934, however, show a dweomer connecting V's hand to the hand, and the 16th panel shows that connection being severed. As such, I now believe that strip 934 shows V casting Bugsby's forceful hand, the lowest-level Bugsby's hand spell that can make the bull rush combat maneuver. Incidentally, this strip, by showing us what a bull rush combat maneuver made with a Bugsby's hand spell looks like - with the fingers together and straight, and the palm vertical - gives further evidence to show that the fist in strip 896 was Bugsby's clenched fist.

[MReav]

On Sabine, Soul Eater is a good thought, but I think that homebrew really is the simplest option here. We already know that Sabine is houseruled to at least some extent, since she also (for example) can Plane Shift 1/day, something that no fiend in any of the books can do

I had assumed it was a boon given to her by her employers rather than a natural ability. We see Randy doing the same thing to give her a ride back.

[Steven]

Making the presumption that because a character has a houserule applied to them anything else not listed in the base stat block for their race is a houserule is possibly not a good idea.

Once again, I ask: Isn't this thread about finding RAW explanations for what happens in the comic where we can? If so then soul eater does exactly that. People may have opinions about the likely hood of this being what Rich was thinking when he drew a given comic but that really means exactly nothing when there is a good RAW explanation for what is going on.

Right now MRev's idea that it's something Sabine gets from her employer has exactly the same amount of weight as the idea that it's a houserule i.e. very little-to-none.

[Douglas]

I'm in favor of "artistic license for the normal racial ability" on this one. Succubi can drain levels, Sabine is a succubus, no further explanation is really needed for how she is able to drain levels even if the description doesn't match every detail exactly.

[Steven]

Except there is a perfectly good way to do it without artistic license. Rich has said he's not really following the rules as such and it was decided a while back that this thread would treat the comic as if it were following the rules.

So why not list the explanation that fits the rules?

[Flame of Anor]

For the sake of pedantry, isn't there a feat that allows people to fire bows with their feet? I believe the purpose of it was for flying creatures to get bonus damage when shooting down at ground targets.

It seems more likely to me that this was just an outside-the-rules one-time thing. Like, if there were an actual DM, he would have been saying "Hm, yeah, I suppose you can try the shot, but at a -10 penalty." After all, I don't think broken arms are in the rules either.

[Chronos]

I'd buy something like that. Haley did that by accepting a sizable penalty, and didn't care about the penalty because she was counting on Tarquin's reflexes to catch the arrows, not on actually hitting anyway.

And I stand corrected on cover and sneak attack-- The rules use "cover or concealment" together so many times that I guess I just assumed it there, too.

[Vanitas]

It seems more likely to me that this was just an outside-the-rules one-time thing. Like, if there were an actual DM, he would have been saying "Hm, yeah, I suppose you can try the shot, but at a -10 penalty." After all, I don't think broken arms are in the rules either.

Actually, I'm pretty sure there is a rule for broken arms in the DMG

[Sylthia]

Actually, I'm pretty sure there is a rule for broken arms in the DMG

I've used the sunder rules as a DM.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, I'm pretty sure there is a rule for broken arms in the DMG

You are correct:

Variant: Damage to Specific Areas

Sometimes, despite the abstract nature of combat, you're going to want to apply damage to specific parts of the body, such as when a character's hands are thrust into flames, when he steps on caltrops, or when he peeks through a hole in the wall and someone shoots an arrow into the hole from the other side. (This situation comes up most frequently with devious traps meant to chop at feet, smash fingers, or the like.)

When a specific body part takes damage, you can apply a -2 penalty to any action that the character undertakes using that portion of his body. For example, if a character's fingers get slashed, he makes attack rolls with a weapon in that hand at -2 and he takes a -2 penalty on skill checks involving the use of his hands. If a character steps on a caltrop, he takes a -2 penalty on skill checks involving the use of his feet (in addition to the effects described in the Player's Handbook).

Chapter 8 of this book defines some effects of damage to specific body parts, such as what happens when a character is blinded or deafened. In addition to that information, use the table below as a guide to what rolls are modified by injuries to what body parts.

This penalty lasts until the character heals, either magically or by resting. For a minor wound, such as stepping on a caltrop, a DC 15 Heal heck, 1 point of magical healing, or a day of rest removes the penalties.

You can allow a character to make a Fortitude save (DC 10+damage taken) to "tough it out" and ignore the penalty. Also, these penalties shouldn't stack - two hand injuries should not impose a -4 penalty.

{table=head]Location|Damage Affects:
Hand|Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Forgery, Heal, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope checks; attack rolls.
Arm|Climb and Swim checks; attack rolls; Strength checks.
Head|All attack rolls, saves, and checks.
One eye|Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot checks; Survival checks (for tracking); initiative checks; Dexterity checks; ranged attack rolls; Reflex saving throws. Severe damage to both eyes causes a character to become blinded.
One ear|Listen checks; initiative checks. Severe damage to both ears causes a character to become deafened.
Foot/Leg|Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Ride, Swim, and Tumble checks; Reflex saving throws; Dexterity checks.[/table]

It's not really stated (the first and second paragraphs come closest), but one can surmise that a simple attack roll made against a character's AC, with the declaration "I want this attack to damage a specific body part", will, if it hits, do damage to that body part and impose the requisite -2 penalties.

[Flame of Anor]

You are correct:


It's not really stated (the first and second paragraphs come closest), but one can surmise that a simple attack roll made against a character's AC, with the declaration "I want this attack to damage a specific body part", will, if it hits, do damage to that body part and impose the requisite -2 penalties.

Ah, I see. So even a character with two broken arms could shoot a bow normally with a -2 penalty.

...which inclines me to think that these rules are not in effect, since Haley could easily have shrugged off a -2 penalty.

[Vanitas]

Ah, I see. So even a character with two broken arms could shoot a bow normally with a -2 penalty.

...which inclines me to think that these rules are not in effect, since Haley could easily have shrugged off a -2 penalty.

She is prone, isn't she? I think you get penalties for shooting a bow from a prone position.

EDIT: Also, she did shrug off the penalty in the comic.

[Flame of Anor]

EDIT: Also, she did shrug off the penalty in the comic.

No, she awkwardly used her foot.

[zimmerwald1915]

No, she awkwardly used her foot.

Which I'm sure had no penalty whatsoever associated with it. But it doesn't matter. Turns out, even with whatever penalty she was carrying, she would have hit Tarquin with both arrows.

[Flame of Anor]

Which I'm sure had no penalty whatsoever associated with it.

I'm certain it did have a penalty, and a fairly significant one considering how awkward it looks. Which is why I don't think the DMG optional rules are in force. If they were, she could have taken the shot regularly, broken arm and all, at a measly -2 penalty.

[RMS Oceanic]

If I were DM, I'd rule she was using it in an improvised fashion, ergo it's an improvised weapon, ergo a -4 penalty.

[Codyage]

Prone

The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Here you go.

[SingleCrystal]

I think the power Laurin used when she was hit with the Cone of Cold was Energy Adaptation, manifested as an immediate action. Cone of cold does 15d6(V is about level 15, doing an average of 52.5), so assuming Laurin made the reflex save she could block the remaining damage with 30 points of cold resistance. That explains why she has no damage marks afterwards.

This still only tells that her manifester level is at least 13.

[Kornaki]

Just a thought experiment for people in the threadI came up with because of the whole is Tarquin epic argument: how many eight level spells would Vaarsuvius have to cast in a row before you would label V as level 18 (i picked 18 because that is when wizards get the extra eight level spell over a 17th level wizard)? Like if right now V said "Let me show off all those spells I told Laurin I have" and panel by panel just started casting eight level spells in a row, how many would have to happen before you would say "Screw it, V must be level 18 to have that many eight level spells!" Just one more than we can explain with his intelligence of 24 and normal wizard spells, or would you want to tack on things like a pearl of power to his inventory list first, or even argue that we can never confirm that V is level 17 without seeing a ninth level spell first?

[SavageWombat]

I think that, in your specific example, wizards' levels are so defined by their spells that the absence of 9th level spells would be a bigger mystery than the additional 8th level spells. So it would have to be a much larger number of excess 8th level spells than even being 18th could explain.