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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Well, we're perhaps a year and a half away from the release of 4th edition (no I know nothing official), so I've been thinking about what it may look like. Here then is a list of the changes I'd like to see:

    1. Every race should have at least one hit die/level. This alleviates the awkwardness of having 4 x skill points the first character level; instead you'd get your racial skills for that level. It also gets rid of the oddity where all humans have to have a class yet you can run into other creatures without any. At last there could be such a thing as a normal human! It would also make 1st level play more fun, since your characters actually have 2 hit dice (one race, one class). That is, unless you want the first adventure to start with picking a class.

    2. Each class should fill a specific archetypal role and be distinct from one another. Right now we have 2 holy armored knights (cleric, paladin), for example. Each class must play extremely differently from the others. Ranger for example should become less about a canned feat package and more about wilderness expertise.

    3. Classes should be set up to provide immense variety. Questions about balance aside, I love that the fighter is just a collection of bonus feats. Whereas look at the monk; they get a few bonus feats early on (with just a few choices), then it is a rigid path. Any two 20th level monks are going to look pretty similar. But with some thought and creativity, you could come up with an immense amount of different qualities and powers they could have.

    4. Classes should be balanced contribution-wise. Wizards should do their best to end a lot of the concerns voiced on this forum and others regarding "casters win". Spells like the polymorph chain need to be fixed.

    5. Feats can be bought via point buy. Some feats are better than others, and this is a good way to balance them. Just as there is a feat to gain extra skill points, there can probably also be a way to convert skill points into extra feats.

    Well that's all for now, I'm sure you'll all come up with so much more.

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Backwards Compatability (I always say this).
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    Default What I want to see from 4th Edition...

    ...is for it to not exist unless its backwards compatiable. If I've bought all the splat-books that I have for nothing, I will quite seriously stop buying Wizards products.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Balance..
    Really, I'd just prefer something like 3.75. Just rebalancing the whole thing.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    Well, we're perhaps a year and a half away from the release of 4th edition (no I know nothing official), so I've been thinking about what it may look like. Here then is a list of the changes I'd like to see:

    1. Every race should have at least one hit die/level. This alleviates the awkwardness of having 4 x skill points the first character level; instead you'd get your racial skills for that level. It also gets rid of the oddity where all humans have to have a class yet you can run into other creatures without any. At last there could be such a thing as a normal human! It would also make 1st level play more fun, since your characters actually have 2 hit dice (one race, one class). That is, unless you want the first adventure to start with picking a class.
    Unnessicary, and not even true, if you read the statblocks for the other PC races they are always listed as level 1 warriors or experts or whatnot.

    Nevermind that as you said theres no longer any 1st level play.

    2. Each class should fill a specific archetypal role and be distinct from one another. Right now we have 2 holy armored knights (cleric, paladin), for example. Each class must play extremely differently from the others. Ranger for example should become less about a canned feat package and more about wilderness expertise.
    Ahh, so the Ranger would become a Scout then?

    3. Classes should be set up to provide immense variety. Questions about balance aside, I love that the fighter is just a collection of bonus feats. Whereas look at the monk; they get a few bonus feats early on (with just a few choices), then it is a rigid path. Any two 20th level monks are going to look pretty similar. But with some thought and creativity, you could come up with an immense amount of different qualities and powers they could have.
    Already addressed: PrCs

    4. Classes should be balanced contribution-wise. Wizards should do their best to end a lot of the concerns voiced on this forum and others regarding "casters win". Spells like the polymorph chain need to be fixed.
    True, (also, do you mean players of Wizards or Wizards of the Coast?). But even still very difficult if they want to retain the same flavor as well as a vancian magic system.

    5. Feats can be bought via point buy. Some feats are better than others, and this is a good way to balance them. Just as there is a feat to gain extra skill points, there can probably also be a way to convert skill points into extra feats.
    Arbitrary, since writers for one suppliment will have no idea how well their feats will mesh with things that come in later on. Would just cause an endless errata printout adjusting costs as new books came out
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    True, (also, do you mean players of Wizards or Wizards of the Coast?). But even still very difficult if they want to retain the same flavor as well as a vancian magic system.
    I'm preety sure that wizards can be less insanely powerful while retaining falvour and Vancian magic system. It'd just take to think while designing spells, which WoTC clearly didn't do while designing spell lists for 3.x- just look at Rope Trick, Wall of Iron, Teleport, Polymorph, Mage's Magnificent Mansion and so on.
    Last edited by Morty; 2007-01-06 at 03:58 PM.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    Well, we're perhaps a year and a half away from the release of 4th edition (no I know nothing official), so I've been thinking about what it may look like. Here then is a list of the changes I'd like to see:
    When 3.5 came out, Wizards explicitly stated that this did not in any way mean that it meant that they were half way to making 4th edition. 4th ed is still a long way off.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    I think a drain system like Shadowrun has might do well in balancing wizards. That and a revamping of several spells. You do have to be careful though, a lot of spells are iconic and should still be available in some form.


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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Look at Arcana Evolved for spellcasting with pretty much the same flavor but much better balance.

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    I've heard a lot of this "Arcana Evolved", but haven't seen it around. Is it a 3rd party source or something?


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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    Well, we're perhaps a year and a half away from the release of 4th edition (no I know nothing official), so I've been thinking about what it may look like. Here then is a list of the changes I'd like to see:

    1. Every race should have at least one hit die/level. This alleviates the awkwardness of having 4 x skill points the first character level; instead you'd get your racial skills for that level. It also gets rid of the oddity where all humans have to have a class yet you can run into other creatures without any. At last there could be such a thing as a normal human! It would also make 1st level play more fun, since your characters actually have 2 hit dice (one race, one class). That is, unless you want the first adventure to start with picking a class.
    What is awkward about the 4x skill points?
    Also, Humans and every other base class (Halfling, Gnome, Half-orc, etc) are all the same. They don't have monstrous hit die. It's becuase they technically aren't monsters. Each of the base classes live in a society that isn't detrimental to any other society. By that I mean, you won't see a gnome and Human war without just cause. But you can see humans fighting orcs or goblins, just because.

    2. Each class should fill a specific archetypal role and be distinct from one another. Right now we have 2 holy armored knights (cleric, paladin), for example. Each class must play extremely differently from the others. Ranger for example should become less about a canned feat package and more about wilderness expertise.
    Technically, the Cleric has the archetypical role of being the healer. That's how it looks and is supposed to be played. People just see the spells and the armor and go "Hey, I could kick some butt with this class" Admittadly, Wizards should do a minor fix to this, like getting rid of spells that only affect their power. (I.e Righteous Might)

    3. Classes should be set up to provide immense variety. Questions about balance aside, I love that the fighter is just a collection of bonus feats. Whereas look at the monk; they get a few bonus feats early on (with just a few choices), then it is a rigid path. Any two 20th level monks are going to look pretty similar. But with some thought and creativity, you could come up with an immense amount of different qualities and powers they could have.
    It's the flavor of the class. Fighters fit a lot of roles, they need the availabilty of different feats. Monks fit one role. Barbarians fit one role. Rangers fit one of two roles. Their abilities and their flavor say they only get one role. Barbarians Rage, Monks are eternal and Rangers tend to shoot bows or wield two weapons.

    5. Feats can be bought via point buy. Some feats are better than others, and this is a good way to balance them. Just as there is a feat to gain extra skill points, there can probably also be a way to convert skill points into extra feats.
    This... Just doens't make any sense. They have prereq's for a reason. Plus only the fighter gets enough feats for him to actually be not annoyed by this. Everybody else will only have 7 feats for the entire game and you want to exclude some just because they don't have the points?
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    # 1 just isn't right...what is an 'ordinary human?', why should they exist, there are plenty of ways to represent them already with NPC classes. And other monsters have classes too, most of the ones listed in the monster manual are 1st level warriors.

    #3 and #4 are contradictory. Each class should be a fixed archetype, with an absolutely minimal 'overlap' with other classes but at the same time they should also have immense variety? The only way to do this is to pare it down into the 3 'core' archetypes you see in Unearthed Arcana: Warrior, Spellcaster, and Expert, which frankly destroys the flavor built into the classes. You might as well make the game point buy. There's nothing wrong with things like a fighter and barbarian, or a sorcerer and a wizard, or a cleric and a paladin, they share interests and some abilities but they are ultimately very different classes.

    I disagree with number 5. Combining Point Buy and Class systems in any significant degree number tend to be Bad Ideas. With the amount of material produced by wizard's it's even worse. if you go even farther and turn skill points into feats you'd get weird things like rogues who are more combat experts tha fighters.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    -Make keeping track of which bonuses stack with what much much easier. Limit them to a couple easy to remember types and then color-code them or something. As things is keeping track of what stacks with what is an enormous pain in the ass.

    -Make it so that in anything close to a fair fight a fighter would crush a wizard but give wizards plenty of means to avoid fair fights. I'd like there to be lots of useful spells with 10 minute casting times personally.

    -Get rid of insanely powerful cleric self-only buffs.

    -Give fighters a few useful non-combat abilities. Nothing major, just some small stuff.

    -Overhaul the multiclassing system. Right now a looooooooooot of multiclassing options are just completely untenable powerwise (just try to play an 6th level fighter/7th level cleric/7th level wizard) that works just fine in 2nd edition. Because of this there are an insane number of feats and PrCs that only exist to bring some multiclass options back up to par and make the game more complicated. Do something like have multiclass characters gain a level of abilities in one class whenever they gain two levels in another class.

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    If 4th ed. is a year and a half away, I will be very upset. I'm still not completely upgraded from 3.0 to 3.5.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by oriong View Post
    # 1 just isn't right...what is an 'ordinary human?', why should they exist, there are plenty of ways to represent them already with NPC classes. And other monsters have classes too, most of the ones listed in the monster manual are 1st level warriors.
    An ordinary human is someone who has no class-specific training. We can do away with the npc class commoner, unless someone actually uses 15th level commoners. Having a class should mean you've had training.

    Quote Originally Posted by oriong View Post
    #3 and #4 are contradictory. Each class should be a fixed archetype, with an absolutely minimal 'overlap' with other classes but at the same time they should also have immense variety? The only way to do this is to pare it down into the 3 'core' archetypes you see in Unearthed Arcana: Warrior, Spellcaster, and Expert, which frankly destroys the flavor built into the classes. You might as well make the game point buy. There's nothing wrong with things like a fighter and barbarian, or a sorcerer and a wizard, or a cleric and a paladin, they share interests and some abilities but they are ultimately very different classes.
    I believe you can achieve immense variety yet fit archetypes by using bonus feats and asking characters to choose powers. All the spellcasting classes have built-in variety already by which spells they pick. Probably clerics should be asked to know certain spells, instead of being able to prepare anything. Fighters as I noted already have fighter bonus feats, rogues already have special abilities to pick from at high levels, so I really just want to see more of this. Monks should have different paths to enlightenment, akin to schools of magic, and these paths come with a different set of abilities to pick from. Rangers should have ranger bonus feats so they can specialize in setting traps (something which I don't see enough of in D&D) vs. sniping vs. sneak attacks against their favored enemies vs. various tactics that can be used depending on the wilderness setting. Maybe some paladins have today's smite evil, whereas others blast evil in a cone, etc. I think if Wizards' puts enough imagination into it, they can expand the classes greatly. Then you don't need so many prestige classes because the classes themselves allow for great flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by oriong View Post
    I disagree with number 5. Combining Point Buy and Class systems in any significant degree number tend to be Bad Ideas. With the amount of material produced by wizard's it's even worse. if you go even farther and turn skill points into feats you'd get weird things like rogues who are more combat experts tha fighters.
    I think having feats via point buy would help writers of later books to balance their feats. Right now, they want to do something cool, and if they worry the new feat is overpowered they just bulk up the prerequisites. But if feats cost different points, it gives them another way to balance them. I'm not too attached about converting skill points to feats so I'm fine with scrapping that part.

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosh View Post
    -Overhaul the multiclassing system. Right now a looooooooooot of multiclassing options are just completely untenable powerwise (just try to play an 6th level fighter/7th level cleric/7th level wizard) that works just fine in 2nd edition. Because of this there are an insane number of feats and PrCs that only exist to bring some multiclass options back up to par and make the game more complicated. Do something like have multiclass characters gain a level of abilities in one class whenever they gain two levels in another class.
    Maybe you can spend a certain amount of skill points to increase your effective level in another class. Then we can do away with "practised" spellcaster by making it a skill point cost instead of a feat.

    I still wonder if somehow we can merge skills & feats. They both represent time you spend practising something (well, some feats aren't like the dragonmarks, but by and large they are tricks you learn), so shouldn't they use the same mechanic?

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    The main problem as I see it is that WotC has shown a trend of massively revamping much of the basics (see: all races can be any class, ability score modifiers rather than miscellaneous bonuses) yet keep may silly things that were the status quo in 2nd ed yet don't really need to be carried over (the bag of holding/portable hole explosion, the alignment system as is).

    So if 4th edition follows that trend, and I'm hoping it not only doesn't but isn't released for at least another 10 years, then you'll have a lot more rules to re-learn (but they'll probably be simpler) the specific things which are 'broken' will change but there won't be fewer of them, and miniatures will almost be required for a the complete experience.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Zincorium View Post
    So if 4th edition follows that trend, and I'm hoping it not only doesn't but isn't released for at least another 10 years, then you'll have a lot more rules to re-learn (but they'll probably be simpler) the specific things which are 'broken' will change but there won't be fewer of them, and miniatures will almost be required for a the complete experience.
    Yeah, I did read that it will be more miniatures focused, because Wizards makes more money on miniatures than it does on D&D. So the game will be in some sense a vehicle to sell plastic minis. How it can be any more minis focused I really don't know. I can just see it now; the DM says "You can't fight monster xyz because I haven't bought the mini yet, and it says in the rules you have to use the genuine thing or it isn't legal".

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Character attributes will come i randomised boosters and you will be unable to level up a character unless you have a (rare) card for the next level of the class you are playing. Adventures will consist of the DM randomly drawing Monsters from the deck to fight in 10x10 rooms guarding chests. WotC will hire ninjas to kill anyone playing a previous edition in order to increase 4.0 ed card sales. Harry Potter will be the first World Book.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Nah, you can play fine without miniatures. You just need an electronic blackboard. And a computer, of course.

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Khantalas View Post
    Nah, you can play fine without miniatures. You just need an electronic blackboard. And a computer, of course.
    Or a chalkboard. Or imagination. Both are acceptable substitutes.
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    I was going to get a white board with a nice grid on it, but I ran out of money...
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Cheaper alternative: graph paper and pencils.

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Gentleman I believe that 3.75 already exists. If you agree with the following:

    -Spellcasting and spellcasters should be balanced with other classes.
    -Magical items should be considered in a case by case mode
    -Archetypes like the magic wielding warrior or the agile fighter should be core-meaning balanced and as well integrated as say the rogue
    - Alignments must be optional, or to say it differently, it must be possible to play without alignments without stumbling on the magic system

    then Arcana Evolved is what you are looking for. Do yourselves a favor and look it up. It gives a much clearer understanding of what DnD can be. It is written by Monte Cook, one of the designers of d20 nevertheless and published by Malhavoc Press (this goes for Behold_the_void)
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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambrogino View Post
    Character attributes will come i randomised boosters and you will be unable to level up a character unless you have a (rare) card for the next level of the class you are playing. Adventures will consist of the DM randomly drawing Monsters from the deck to fight in 10x10 rooms guarding chests. WotC will hire ninjas to kill anyone playing a previous edition in order to increase 4.0 ed card sales. Harry Potter will be the first World Book.
    Now THAT has got to be the funniest thing I've read in a long time!

    But yeah, with Hasbro owning WOTC, I'm not sure we can expect quality product ... at some point making the best RPG and making the best money-making RPG part ways.

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    What I want:

    Skills, at high level, should do things roughly on par, powerwise, with spells. We've already got plenty of classes that can do magical things at high level without being true spellcasters (rogues can dodge a 20' diameter fireball in a 10' room without being harmed, monks can run at lightning speeds, barbarians get so mad they become tougher, etc). Just making Disguise be able to do things like Alter Self at high level would mean the skill monkeys could keep up with the spellcasters.

    That, and revise some of the earlier melee base classes (like Fighter) so they keep up with the spellcasters and the newer melee classes (Warblade).

    While we're at it, all Base Classes should have some reason to stay in the class instead of PrCing out (I'm looking at you, Sorcerer) and have some capstone ability that makes level 20 special (see Dread Necromancer and Scout for examples of how this should work. See Rogue and Fighter for how it should not).

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    I want to see "Thanks to ... & ... from the WoTC Optimization Forum for playtesting" at the end of the book.

    Spells should be rewritten. A 2 Turns time-stop, no polymorph, more 10 minutes casting (teleport), ...

    A book with "Errata" for 3.5 starting with the sentence : "We could make this 4.0 and make everybody buy this. We could then update every other book we ever published and let you buy those. But we chose to fix 3.5 and give this book away for free because we made you buy all those hoorible suplements without even checking them for spelling, let olone balance."

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Here's a link to Arcana Evolved:

    http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?arcanaevolved

    It's from Malhovak Press, which is basically Monte Cooks personal publisher. Monte was one of the prime architechts of 3rd Edition, so you might think of this as what 3rd edition would have been if he did it solo, although he has said that many of the ideas come from seeing how 3rd edition played out. It is an excellent system and does balance magic users out a bit more. My only problem with it is the world setting he made, which isn't all that great if you ask me. Monte writes excellent rules, but I've never been a fan of his world settings, although I am sorely tempted to get Ptolus.

    He has also written Iron Heroes, which is an attempt to do DnD with almost no magic whatsoever. I haven't looked at it much, but I've heard it compared to Conan alot.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Ambrogino's Avatar

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Raldor View Post
    He has also written Iron Heroes, which is an attempt to do DnD with almost no magic whatsoever. I haven't looked at it much, but I've heard it compared to Conan alot.
    Cook didn't write Iron Heroes, Mike Mearls did. "Monte Cook presents" is on the cover to differentiate it from the other , non-Malhavok Press stuff White Wold publish.
    "They say we wizards are subtle. But believe you me, we've got nothing, nothing at all on women" - Harry Dresden, Storm Front
    A thousand and one blessings on the house of Ishukira for the Illuminated One avatar.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: What I want to see from 4th Edition

    i want to see more 3.5 stuf, the games not so broken that there is no fun for anyone, people still play. when they anounce the release of 4th im going to stop buying books and play with what i have. What they need, something i've not even home ruled, is something my players kind of do it themselves. the party balances out, because the wizard knows one good shot from a greataxe will either drop him or put him close, and the fighter knows he can save the wizards bacon.
    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    You are my favorite kind of villain.

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