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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    This may be a silly question, but I've been unable to find any answers in the SRD, the Core Books, or Errata.


    If I add class levels to a monster (such as, for example, a succubus) that has spell resistance, does that SR increase or remain static?

    If I increase a monster's HD without adding class levels (IE, more outsider HD), does a monster's Spellcasting improve?

    How about the Caster Level on their Spell-Like Abilities? Class or HD.
    Quote:
    One of the hardest parts of DMing is to give players a reason to railroad themselves.
    (Originally Posted by Rockphed)

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    You're making a reasonable and rational argument here, instead of pandering to the extremists on either side. Stop it. I'm pretty sure that's a banning offense on the internet.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight Renee View Post
    This may be a silly question, but I've been unable to find any answers in the SRD, the Core Books, or Errata.


    If I add class levels to a monster (such as, for example, a succubus) that has spell resistance, does that SR increase or remain static?

    If I increase a monster's HD without adding class levels (IE, more outsider HD), does a monster's Spellcasting improve?

    How about the Caster Level on their Spell-Like Abilities? Class or HD.
    To quote Drow -entry of SRD: "Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels." so adding class levels makes it higher.

    To quote succubus -entry of SRD: "spell resistance 18"

    So I would say that succubus has constant SR while Drow's SR increases.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lord Lorac Silvanos's Avatar

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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    Pegasos989 is correct.

    SR does not change unless the description of the creature specifically says it does.

    If a CL for the Spell-like abilities are given, it remains constant unless otherwise noted.
    If a CL is not given, it is equal to the creatures HD
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    Officially, Pegasos is correct.

    I'd consider another approach, though, as a house rule; take the monster's default SR, subtract its CR from it, advance it, and add in the new CR. That way, the monster will retain the same resistance to spells cast by a caster of the level expected to fight it.

    If a caster level is given and equal to hit dice, I'd consider advancing it proportionately to HD, but possibly not 1-for-1; it's a fine art, though, to decide how much, and depends heavily on what spells it has. For example, Blasphemy's CL should rise 1-for-1 with CR, not with hit dice, whereas direct-damage spells like Fireball, and things that only depend on CL for range and duration, scale better with hit dice. I'd look over the monster's spell list, and see if it has any spells that work best with a CL proportionate to CR; if it does, its CL rises with CR; otherwise, its CL rises with hit dice. Possibly add an additional CR increase for this (count each HD as 1.5 HD for purposes of CR calculations, so 4 HD is +3 CR for an outsider), depending. I'd only ever go 1-for-1 monster HD to CR if I were not just keeping CL equal to CR, but also upgrading SLAs and adding more variety with them.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    well the sr= number+ levels formula is made for those races that players can play. since a succubus is not meant to be a player race therefore it's HD are fixed and they would all be like level 8 outsitders ot however many HD a succubus has. Maybe for every HD or class level you add onto a non-standard race you could advance it SR by 1 also. advancing non-player races isn't easy though, there's a lot of things besides SR. but that's my interpetation.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Got_This_Name View Post
    Officially, Pegasos is correct.

    I'd consider another approach, though, as a house rule; take the monster's default SR, subtract its CR from it, advance it, and add in the new CR. That way, the monster will retain the same resistance to spells cast by a caster of the level expected to fight it.
    If you do that, shouldn't you do the same to it's AC?
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    There are ways to improve AC that are more obvious. It's a non-issue, IMHO. SR is... not so easy, especially for high levels when SR less than 20+ is nearly worthless.

    In particular, my problem monsters are a BBEG and another BBEG's lackey. The lackey is a succubus (20th level and gestalt for more fun with CR: outsider 6, rogue 14/sorcerer 8(casts as 12), nightmare spinner 5, spymaster 7), and at that level... SR 18 is sad.

    The BBEG-type is a quasit, also gestalted (forgot exact levels, but wiz/sor/cleric). I advanced his outsider HD to 4, and quasits normally have 3 HD, and CL 6th for their SLAs, except for commune, which is CL 12th (so it says, yet it specifies only 6 questions).

    I noticed that with both creatures, their SLA CL is a multiple of their HD. Others have no such pattern, so I supose it is, in fact, largely coincedental... Still, officially the succubus' SR stinks, and the quasit was providing me a source of confusion.
    Quote:
    One of the hardest parts of DMing is to give players a reason to railroad themselves.
    (Originally Posted by Rockphed)

    Quote:
    You're making a reasonable and rational argument here, instead of pandering to the extremists on either side. Stop it. I'm pretty sure that's a banning offense on the internet.
    (Originally Posted by Swordguy)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ken-do-nim's Avatar

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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    Hmm... doesn't seem fair that a creature like a succubus is stuck with a given sr, whereas say a hound archon gets to increase its sr with class levels.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    I guess it might come down to whether or not it's taken into account with their LA + HD, after all an ability that scales with level is far more powerful than one that does not. unfortunately I don't know that I'm qualified to pick apart succubus vs. hound archon & drow to determine if it is fair in practice.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Spells, SR and Monster Advancement

    Huh. Well, the Archon has SR 10+HD. Succubus has SR 18, or if I make it scale, either SR 12+HD or SR 11+CR. I have no idea what her CR is, honestly, but it's probably higher than her HD. SR 32 from 12+HD is reasonable, however.

    On that note, my half-succubus template has SR 10+HD, so I should probably allow all SR to scale in like manner for consistencies sake if nothing else.


    I'll probably just leave the set CLs for SLAs alone.
    Quote:
    One of the hardest parts of DMing is to give players a reason to railroad themselves.
    (Originally Posted by Rockphed)

    Quote:
    You're making a reasonable and rational argument here, instead of pandering to the extremists on either side. Stop it. I'm pretty sure that's a banning offense on the internet.
    (Originally Posted by Swordguy)

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