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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    May 2013

    Default Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    I am currently running a gestalt campaign, and I noticed that people running two spellcasting classes had very few methods of combining their features. A common ruling is that you may take a theurge class on one of your halves on the condition that it only progresses one of your classes rather than both of them. This works for some classes, but for others the synergistic bonuses are largely rendered redundant by gestalt. One combination that really suffers is manifester//arcane spellcaster, so I decided to make a theurge PrC designed for gestalt between them. Itís almost certainly broken, and I would like help balancing it. Actually, it looks on the strong side of balanced, considering the power-play in Gestalt campaigns. There isnít any fluff because I do not want to tie this class down to a specific archetype, role or build. Anyway, here it is:

    The Gestalt Cerebemancer

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    Image by Fetsch from Deviantart.com


    Hit Die: d4

    Requirements:
    Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 4 ranks, Psicraft 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks.
    Feats: any metapsionic feat, any metamagic feat.
    Spellcasting: Must be capable of casting 3rd level arcane spells.
    Manifesting: Must be capable of manifesting 3rd level psionic powers.

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells
    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Metacerebemancy|+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Cerebemantic fusion|+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    | |+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Cerebemantic Transfer|+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    | |+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Cerebemantic Augmentation|+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    | |+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |True Transparency|+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    | |+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class
    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Cerebemantic Focus|+1 level of existing spellcasting or manifesting class [/table]

    Metacerebemancy: A Cerebemancer may apply metapsionic feats to a spell by expending their psionic focus and spending power points equal to the total normal cost of the feats +2. Alternatively, they may apply metamagic feats to a power by expending their psionic focus and sacrificing a spell slot/prepared spell whose level is equal to the level adjustment of the feat. This does not affect the level of the spell/power in any way. They may never apply metapsionic feats with a total power point cost greater than their class level, nor may they apply metamagic feats with a total level adjustment greater than half their class level rounded up.

    Cerebemantic Fusion: A Cerebemancer of 2nd level or higher may cast a spell and manifest power as a single full-round action by expending their psionic focus, sacrificing a spell slot/prepared spell whose level is equal to the level of the power and spending power points equal to twice the level of the spell. Both spell and power must have a casting time of a full-round action or less, and they may be cast in any order (but not at the same time). The cerebemancer may not quicken a spell or power in the same round that they use this ability.

    Cerebemantic Transfer: As a move action, a Cerebemancer of 4th level or higher may sacrifice a spell slot/prepared spell and gain power points equal to twice the level of the spell, or spend power points to gain an extra spell slot/prepare an additional spell with a level equal to half the power points spent rounded down. If using this ability to prepare an additional spell, this must be done when they first prepare spells for the day, after eight hours rest.

    Cerebemantic Augmentation: A Cerebemancer of 6th level or higher may sacrifice a spell slot/prepared spell when manifesting a power to augment the power as if they had spent additional power points equal to twice the level of the spell, or they may sacrifice a spell slot/prepared spell and spend power points to gain a new spell slot/prepared spell equal to the level of the spell plus half the power points spent rounded down. A prepared spell may only be sacrificed when first preparing spells for the day, after eight hours rest. This may never allow a Cerebemancer to gain a spell slot/prepare a spell of a higher level than the highest level that they can cast, nor does it allow a power to be augmented by more power points than their manifester level.

    True Transparency: A Cerebemancer of 8th level or higher may cast a spell by spending power points equal to twice the spellís level, prepare a power instead of a spell of the same level, or spontaneously manifest a power by sacrificing a spell slot of the same level as the power. Powers prepared in this way may be augmented by preparing them as a higher level spell and powers spontaneously cast in this way may be augmented by sacrificing a higher level spell slot; in either cast, for each extra level of the spell, the power may be augmented as if two extra power points had been spent upon it.

    Cerebemantic Focus: A Cerebemancer of 10th level or higher may prepare a psionic focus instead of a spell or spontaneously Ďcastí a psionic focus. Treat the psionic focus as an eighth level spell for this purpose. Once per day, when they would expend their psionic focus, they may Ďcastí a psionic focus, spending 15 power points and losing the spell slot/prepared spell. If they do, they do not lose their psionic focus, but the effect that would have caused them to lose it resolves as if they had. This ability may be used a maximum of once per day.

    Change Log
    Spoiler
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    3/11/13 Added rule about quicken spell/power and Cerebemantic Fusion.
    3/11/13 Posted.
    Last edited by Rolep; 2013-11-10 at 01:45 PM.
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Bump. Does no one have anything to say? I know that this class needs fixing, and that's why its here.
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    thubby's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    do casters really need to be more powerful? they already horribly outstrip everyone. gestalt doesn't even close the gap, so why make casters better?
    a tiny space dedicated to a beloved grandpa now passed. may every lunch be peanut butter-banana sandwiches.
    i has 2/4 an internets.
    old avatars
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    gnome_4ever:

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    May 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by thubby
    do casters really need to be more powerful? they already horribly outstrip everyone. gestalt doesn't even close the gap, so why make casters better?
    The synergy was less aimed at increasing power and more aimed at allowing characters who want to play two caster classes to have more synergy between them and thus make play more interesting/fun. I know that it significantly raises the power level and that's what I need help fixing.
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    I am waiting you give me a more interested information.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Xuldarinar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    This looks pretty good, considering it's aim. Im glad to see a PrC aimed towards gestalt campaigns, though I'm still waiting to see someone make one of the form mentioned under the gestalt rules that would take up both sides of progression.

    Though, I must bring this up, this PrC reminds me of the Geomancer.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    May 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by miles47
    I am waiting you give me a more interested information.
    I don't understand what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar
    This looks pretty good, considering it's aim. Im glad to see a PrC aimed towards gestalt campaigns, though I'm still waiting to see someone make one of the form mentioned under the gestalt rules that would take up both sides of progression.

    Though, I must bring this up, this PrC reminds me of the Geomancer.
    I've actually thought about making one like that, but I feel that it might over-restrict gestalt (which is largely about freedom of choice). However, the only similarity that I can see with the geomancer is that it only progresses one class; the actual abilities seem (at least to me) to be different.
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Another bump.
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Boston, MA

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    True Transparency worries me a little bit, since a wizard can use it to effectively prepare a large number of spells that they might happen to need on any given day, which even for a gestalt character would given them potentially an insane degree of flexibility. if one side is psion 5/gestalt cerebemancer/ psion 5, with the other side being wizard 15/archmage 5 (or replace archmage with some other full spellcasting PrC) you will from levels 5-20 by focusing on the wizard side be effectively T0. Granted, gestalt is a little crazy already, and this sort of build would mean one won't have the really good saves and hit dice you often get with gestalt, but I could see this as being extremely abuseable.

    Another issue that shows up regardless of what the arcane side is, is that a major limiting issue on arcane spellcasters that doesn't normally apply to psions is that no matter what, you can't cast the highest level spells repeatedly. A psion if they need to can put all their power points into their highest level powers. A wizard, sorcerer or other similar spellcaster cannot do so. This breaks that fundamental rule, and that might do bad things to the power level.

    That said it isn't any worse than using wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10 on one side with warmage on the other to get spontaneous casting of the entire cleric list. In fact, that's at least not a deliberate thing but rather an unintended consequence of gestalt mixing with the Rainbow Servant capstone.

    So, overall, it is flavorful, and given how much one can already pull in gestalt, this probably would be fine.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    True Transparency worries me a little bit, since a wizard can use it to effectively prepare a large number of spells that they might happen to need on any given day, which even for a gestalt character would given them potentially an insane degree of flexibility.
    More flexible than a Wizard//Archivist? Both combos can theoretically perpare all the spells that they could ever need (indeed, Archivist/Wizard is far more flexible). It feels to me like a classic power/versitality trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    if one side is psion 5/gestalt cerebemancer/ psion 5, with the other side being wizard 15/archmage 5 (or replace archmage with some other full spellcasting PrC) you will from levels 5-20 by focusing on the wizard side be effectively T0.
    More T0 than StP Erudite//Archivist? This feels like the power/versitality thing coming up again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    Another issue that shows up regardless of what the arcane side is, is that a major limiting issue on arcane spellcasters that doesn't normally apply to psions is that no matter what, you can't cast the highest level spells repeatedly. A psion if they need to can put all their power points into their highest level powers. A wizard, sorcerer or other similar spellcaster cannot do so. This breaks that fundamental rule, and that might do bad things to the power level.
    But in gestalt you can get so many higher level spells per day anyway that either way you are unlikely to run out (and when you do, resting is no biggie).

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    So, overall, it is flavorful, and given how much one can already pull in gestalt, this probably would be fine.
    In fact, my worries were more about the potential power of being able to cast effectively two 14th level spells in a single round at level 17. Do you think that this is reasonable (I don't, but I'm struggling to think of ways of rewording Metacerebemancy/Cerebemantic Fusion/both to fix this. Changing the capstone is an option, but I don't know what to replace it with).
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Boston, MA

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep View Post
    More flexible than a Wizard//Archivist? Both combos can theoretically perpare all the spells that they could ever need (indeed, Archivist/Wizard is far more flexible). It feels to me like a classic power/versitality trade.

    ...


    More T0 than StP Erudite//Archivist? This feels like the power/versitality thing coming up again.
    Well, no, not worse than StP. But do people actually play StP Erudite?

    But in gestalt you can get so many higher level spells per day anyway that either way you are unlikely to run out (and when you do, resting is no biggie).
    I'm not sure about this. You can only about double the number of your highest level spells normally (with say wizard/archivist), this would increase it by a lot more.

    Also I just realize, "True Transparency" comes in at 7th level in the PrC, not 10th which means you can be doing this as early as 13th level. And you often don't have a chance to rest in the middle of something.


    In fact, my worries were more about the potential power of being able to cast effectively two 14th level spells in a single round at level 17. Do you think that this is reasonable (I don't, but I'm struggling to think of ways of rewording Metacerebemancy/Cerebemantic Fusion/both to fix this. Changing the capstone is an option, but I don't know what to replace it with).
    So, that's certainly a potential issue since it threatens to break the action economy. They are both pretty strong features. How much either matters may depend on how much optimization occurs in your games.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    Well, no, not worse than StP. But do people actually play StP Erudite?
    It was a bit of an exaggeration, but honestly any combination along the lines of archivist//wizard is more versatile than this class will ever be.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    I'm not sure about this. You can only about double the number of your highest level spells normally (with say wizard/archivist), this would increase it by a lot more.

    Also I just realize, "True Transparency" comes in at 7th level in the PrC, not 10th which means you can be doing this as early as 13th level. And you often don't have a chance to rest in the middle of something.
    But the 'something' that you talk about is unlikely to cost a 13th level mage more than a couple of spell slots if they're clever anyway. And even if they're not clever, the chances of them actually running out is next to nothing (because if they do run out and you don't let them rest, there is every chance that a hissy fit will be thrown/they will get bored and mess up the game/they will do something really stupid just because there is nothing else to do).

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    So, that's certainly a potential issue since it threatens to break the action economy. They are both pretty strong features. How much either matters may depend on how much optimization occurs in your games.
    To be fair, they can only do this for one round, and then they can only cast normally until they get a chance to rest. But on the other hand, if they can't win in one round, something is wrong, and even if they don't, they can just rest behind a time stop.

    Honestly, dwelling on it, I've realise what really worried me. A good mage can end the game in a single round anyway, but I would like to be a little harder to pull of than this class makes it (if you fail the first time with your super-heightened dominate monster/wail of the banshee/whatever, you get another chance).
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Yeah, Ok. I'm convinced this is probably mainly ok power level.
    Honestly, dwelling on it, I've realise what really worried me. A good mage can end the game in a single round anyway, but I would like to be a little harder to pull of than this class makes it (if you fail the first time with your super-heightened dominate monster/wail of the banshee/whatever, you get another chance).
    You can already do that a bit with Sudden Quicken or with an anima mage. I'm not sure that this is any worse.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
    Show


    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2013

    Default Re: Gestalt Theurgy: The Cerebemancer [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ
    Yeah, Ok. I'm convinced this is probably mainly ok power level. [...] You can already do that a bit with Sudden Quicken or with an anima mage. I'm not sure that this is any worse.
    Wow, this class isn't as overpowered as I thought. Strong, yes, but it's looking usable.
    Rules for Luck
    A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
    The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
    Gestalt theurgy

    When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDragonmaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolep
    60>80
    This, I feel, deserves a quote on its own.
    RAI trumps RAW on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Isn't it annoying when the cocky one is actually right?

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