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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    May 2013

    Default [PF] Waterbending Monk - Build Help Wanted

    So a recent thread alerted me to the existence of the Hydraulic Maneuver feat. It struck me as a really cool, if not powerful ability and I started thinking about ways to put it to good use.

    The current result of this train of thought is a Monk. Specifically a... Qinggong Maneuver Master of the Four Winds. Hydraulic Push can be taken in place of High Jump at Level 5 with Qinggoing, and the Elemental Fist from Four Wings allows me to go with the very thematic Marid Style.

    Though it may go against the spirit of the feats, I don't see any RAW reason why Hydraulic Push shouldn't work with the Improved/Greater Maneuver feats, or the Maneuver Masters various abilities (aside from Flurry of Maneuvers). So that's what I'm building around.


    The First 6 levels look like this:
    Abilities: Focusing on Dex and Wis, then Con. Int is at least 13 probably. edit: nevermind, I don't really need Combat Expertise after all
    Race: Undine (+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str - very nice for a Strength dumping monk)
    Class: Monk (Qinggong Monk, Maneuver Master, Monk of the Four Winds)
    Level 1
    Monk's Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Maneuvers, Feats: Elemental Fist (Monk), Improved Trip (Monk), Weapon Finesse
    Level 2
    Feat: Improved Disarm (Monk)
    Level 3
    Feat: Marid Style
    Level 4
    Reliable Maneuver
    Level 5
    Meditative Maneuver, Hydraulic Push, Feat: Hydraulic Maneuver
    Level 6
    Feat: Greater Bull Rush (Monk)
    Level 7
    Get Ki Power for Wholeness of Body, Feat: ???
    Level 8
    ---
    Level 9
    Feat: Marid Spirit
    Level 10
    Feat: Greater Trip (Monk)
    Level 11
    Feat: ???
    Level 12
    ---
    Level 13
    Ki Leech in place of Diamond Soul, Feat: ???
    Level 14
    Feat: Greater Dirty Trick (Monk)

    Level 5 is where he really gets into his thematic niche. He can hydraulic push as long as he has ki points to spare, plus once for his racial power. He can also do some nice watery Elemental Fists from 10' away thanks to Marid Style, which can later be used to Freeze people and gets an extra D6 damage every few levels.

    I'm dropping STR in favour of an Amulet of Mighty fists with Agile. Aside from Bull Rushes (edit: And Dirty Tricks) with my person, I can use either Wis (with Hydraulic Push) or Dex (with Weapon Finesse, according to an FAQ) for all maneuvers I'll be using. Also, Meditative Maneuver lets me add Wis on top of that with 1 type of menuever per round so long as I have spare swift actions.

    Since I'm dumping STR, I won't be using Bull Rushes and Dirty Tricks outside of Hydraulic Push. This makes attacks of opportunity a non-issue for those maneuvers, so I've skipped the Improved feats for their much better Greater versions. In contrast, Greater Disarm strikes me as mediocre so I'm only using Improved Disarm to avoid the AoOs. I love Monk Bonus feats ignoring prerequisites. :)

    I'm not sure what I'll fill the gaps in with. Extra Ki seems like an easy choice, though Ki Leech may obselete it. Combat Reflexes and Vicious stomp could create some delicious tripping goodness. Lunge could help me increase the already decent range of my Elemental Fists. Beyond that I'm out of ideas.

    So what do you think? Are there any better feats I should look at? And what about Ki Powers? Gaseous Form is currently my top contender for the Level 7 power, but idk. I also get a couple more at the tail end at 17th and 19th levels, by which point I have access to almost all relevant options. Any ideas?

    Spoiler: On Combat Expertise as a prerequisite... (A small rant based on a problem I've now answered for this build, but I'm leaving this here because I still agree with it in general)
    Show

    It really frustrates me how feat trees work. Specifically, I hate that feats need not only the previous feet in the tree, but also the prerequisites of that feat. Maneuver Master's bonus feats let me get the Improved Feats without prerequisites, but if you want the Greater feats you either need to use another Bonus Feat or go back and get the prerequisites. If it weren't for that I wouldn't take Combat Expertise at all! I'd just take the Improved Feats as Monk Bonus feats and then take the Greater feats regularly, but nooo....
    Last edited by Hytheter; 2013-12-25 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Found some better options

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [PF] Waterbending Monk - Build Help Wanted

    Quote Originally Posted by Hytheter View Post
    Spoiler: *On Combat Expertise as a prerequisite...
    Show

    It really frustrates me how feat trees work. Specifically, I hate that feats need not only the previous feet in the tree, but also the prerequisites of that feat. Maneuver Master's bonus feats let me get the Improved Feats without prerequisites, but if you want the Greater feats you either need to use another Bonus Feat or go back and get the prerequisites. If it weren't for that I wouldn't take Combat Expertise at all! I'd just take the Improved Feats as Monk Bonus feats and then take the Greater feats regularly, but nooo....
    Perhaps you could talk to your DM about that and see if Combat Expertise can be removed as a prerequisite for improved/greater combat Manoeuvres.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Waterbending Monk - Build Help Wanted

    Possibly. I'm not really building this for a particular game, it's more theoretical than anything at this point, and i prefer to go by the book where possible.

    However! Something has occured to me.

    Bull Rushes and Dirty Tricks use STR, even with Weapon Finesse. As I'm dumping STR, I will likely never use those maneuvers except with Hydraulic Push (which uses Wis). Therefore Attacks of Opportunity are not a concern, and the only bonus from Improved Dirty Trick/Bull Rush would be th +2 bonus.
    Because Monk Bonus feats disregard prerequisites, I can actually afford to skip Improved Bull Rush and Dirty trick entirely, opting for their Greater versions. I could probably do without Greater Disarm too. This let's me free up a whole bunch of feats and dump Int. My new feat plan is:

    1 Weapon Finesse
    1M Elemental Fist
    1M Improved Trip
    2M Improved Disarm
    3 Marid Style
    5 Hydraulic Maneuver
    6M Greater Bull Rush
    7 ???
    9 Marid Spirit
    10M Greater Trip
    11 ???
    13 ???
    14M Greater Dirty Trick

    I get all the Maneuver Feats I really need by level 14, with feats to spare. Extra Ki would be a good choice I think, but I'm also considering Combat Reflexes and Vicious stomp for some delicious trippy goodness, and/or Quicken Spell-Like ability, since Qinggong Monk Spells are Spell-Like abilities.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: [PF] Waterbending Monk - Build Help Wanted

    Hydraulic torrent while thematic isn't all that useful. You'd spend 2 ki to slightly move a couple of enemies. Gaseous form is slightly more useful and equally thematic (you're turning into a mist, not a gas), Barkskin might be ice armor, or you could get something like Acrobatic Steps which represents athletic/combat training more than magic.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Waterbending Monk - Build Help Wanted

    You're right, Hydraulic Torrent is pretty terrible.
    I've also decided to totally ditch the Lunge/Whirlwind thing in favour of Ki Leech which is obviously a must-have now that I know what it does. I can always take Lunge as a feat if I really want it.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: [PF] Waterbending Monk - Build Help Wanted

    This is a cool idea and it's making me want to make a water-themed monk too. Instead of MFW I'd want to try going for Flowing Monk instead. I think that style would fit a Marid or Grippli monk quite well, and it combos decently with Qinggong since there is more room to pick up Q's ki powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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