Characters You've Changed Your Mind About

[jidasfire]

As a rule, I think it's important to judge the quality of a character based on what role they fulfill in the story and how well they fulfill it rather than by how one personally feels about their actions. Still, there are times when certain characters provoke stronger reactions in us, for good or ill. And sometimes, for whatever reason, this can change with time. Are there any characters about whom you have changed your mind in a drastic way, and why?

For me, there are two. One I liked at first and grew to dislike, and the other I disliked and grew to appreciate over time. The former is Redcloak. I liked Redcloak in the early days of the comic because he provided a straight-man counterbalance to Xykon. He was sharp-witted, beleaguered, and didn't seem like too terrible of a guy, given for whom he was working, and while it wasn't completely clear what it was, he seemed to have his own agenda. Then I read Start of Darkness, and I found it increasingly difficult to sympathize with the character. In actual comic, he became increasingly self-righteous and willing to bend his own tenuous morality to get what he wanted, and I just found myself wanting him to lose and be humiliated all the more. As of the current arc, after what he did to the Resistance, all my sympathy for him is gone. None of this is to say I think he's a poorly-written character, mind you, but my emotional reaction to him is more disgust than anything.

The latter character is Celia, though in her case it's kind of a back and forth flip. I liked her well enough in her early appearances, but when she first appeared in Don't Split the Party, I found myself increasingly confounded by her decisions and actions, particularly the way she treated Haley, who I thought was doing her best in a nigh-impossible situation. I even said some things here on the board about imagining her as a DM's girlfriend character, getting special treatment while not really understanding the game. Having read the arc again in book form, though, I decided that I was being unfair to her, as she did actually do a fair bit to move the story along in the right direction, even if sometimes she messed up. That's not too different from the rest of the Order, and in truth, while she was unfair to Haley a few times, a lot of the time they were actually pretty friendly with one another. And certainly she'd have to be better company than Belkar.

So those are mine. What about you guys?

[Ridureyu]

I used to think that Roy and the Order were heroes, but now I realize that they are secretly agents of the evil lich Xykon, on a dastardly mission to undermine Azure City!

[Wordweaver]

@jidasfire: Oddly, for me it's about the other way round with Redcloak. I used to view him pretty much as the straight man in the Redcloak/Xykon troupe, but he has become a lot more for me since then, with his own agenda. True, he loses his way every now and again, but he struggles to return to it. And that's what makes a good character for me.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I used to like Tarquin. Not anymore.
Edit: to clarify, I'm referring to him as a character, not how he has been characterized. I think Tarquin is actually a really well written character, but a despicable one.

[ti'esar]

I used to despise Belkar as a shallow, one-joke character who represented an unfortunate use of a webcomic cliche instead of anything unique or interesting, and I couldn't wait for his prophecy to come true. Since his hippie vision quest, though, and especially in this last book, he's become surprisingly interesting.

[Lord Torath]

I used to despise Belkar as a shallow, one-joke character who represented an unfortunate use of a webcomic cliche instead of anything unique or interesting, and I couldn't wait for his prophecy to come true. Since his hippie vision quest, though, and especially in this last book, he's become surprisingly interesting.

I have to agree with this. I'm now actively dreading the fulfillment of his prophecy.

[jidasfire]

@jidasfire: Oddly, for me it's about the other way round with Redcloak. I used to view him pretty much as the straight man in the Redcloak/Xykon troupe, but he has become a lot more for me since then, with his own agenda. True, he loses his way every now and again, but he struggles to return to it. And that's what makes a good character for me.

Valid points. I agree that he's a fascinating character, and he certainly has more depth than the usual snarky straight man types. I also wouldn't say the strip is worse for him being what he is. I suppose my anger at the character, which I admit does not so easily rise at far worse people like Xykon, for instance, is because he really should know better. Xykon doesn't have any conscience and he never did, so for him there's no choice between right and wrong. Redcloak, though, clearly has a conscience. He perceives a difference between right and wrong actions, and he's overall pretty smart and self-aware. Yet he so often chooses to do despicable things, knowing full well he shouldn't, and despite that, he still blames everyone else. It's easy to imagine people like him in real life (minus the end of the world plot). So I guess that's why, while acknowledging the character as well-written, he just drives me crazy.

[Sir_Leorik]

I used to despise Belkar as a shallow, one-joke character who represented an unfortunate use of a webcomic cliche instead of anything unique or interesting, and I couldn't wait for his prophecy to come true. Since his hippie vision quest, though, and especially in this last book, he's become surprisingly interesting.

I have to agree with this. I'm now actively dreading the fulfillment of his prophecy.

While I never hated Belkar, my appreciation for him has grown since his trippy experience while suffering the final effects of the Mark of Justice. His resulting character growth (fake and otherwise) is enjoyable to see, and it's always fun to see Roy give Belkar some comeuppance.

I can't stand Tarquin anymore, which is a real shame. Originally he seemed like a clever, genre savvy villain, the kind who knew not to press his luck... until he did exactly that. He's the opposite of Xykon, who honestly doesn't care about how he succeeds, just that he does. Whether it's defeating Fyron with blunt force trauma, rather than magic, spamming Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm or Fireball till his enemies are toast, or sending his minions to their deaths, Xykon knows that style and pizzazz are are a luxury. When he can afford to, he goes the extra mile, like inscribing a Symbol of Insanity onto a rubber bouncy ball and tossing it into a room full of Paladins. Sure he could just Meteor Swarm them, but where's the fun in that? But when Soon's Spirit had Xykon and Redcloak on the ropes, and Miko was about to shatter the Azure City Gate, Xykon knew it was time to book.

For Tarquin a victory is meaningless if there's no drama to it. Everything has to be treated like he's a villain in a fantasy story, which can sometimes help him, but he's not willing to do anything else. He has a great scheme going, and he may be about to lose it all thanks to his insistence that Elan obey him (and Laurin's greed, but that's another story; suffice to say The Snarl is now active in Tarquin's backyard).

Basically Tarquin is a minor villain with delusions of self-importance, just like Samantha, Daimyo Kubota or Nale. And the longer the chase scene went on in the desert, the more and more Tarquin morphed from Grand Admiral Thrawn into a pathetic old man.

[mikeejimbo]

That's funny, I grew to sympathize with Redcloak more after Start of Darkness. Not that I ever really disliked him. Now, "sympathize" doesn't mean I approve of his actions, but... it's complicated.

[SavageWombat]

I just don't get you people and your "dislike" of Rich's characters. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and all, but - really?

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm with you on Redcloak becoming unlikable after reading SoD. Though crushing the Resistance was one of the only times I've rooted for him since then--imploding the elven commander was Redcloak's finest moment.

I didn't care for Z when he first appeared, but when he returned in Book 5, I found him very cool for some reason.

[Keltest]

I just don't get you people and your "dislike" of Rich's characters. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and all, but - really?

As a writer, creating a character that your audience feels strongly about -one way or the other- is a fairly important goal. Naturally, since not everybody shares the same likes and dislikes, Rich cannot create every character to appeal to every reader.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I just don't get you people and your "dislike" of Rich's characters. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and all, but - really?

As I said, I'm talking specifically about whether I like this character or not, not how I feel about Rich's characterization of them. For example, I hate Xykon because he's an evil douche. Perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of this thread.

[Anarion]

Hmm, I think Elan's really grown on me as he's grown personally. I found his original character to be somewhat grating because that level of naivete just makes me sigh and shake my head while I wait for whatever trouble he's gotten himself into to be over (I...may have some mental commonality with Roy on this). But since the mid 400s and especially since the separation of the party Elan's grown quite a bit. His outlook is eternally that of the optimist, but he's become better and better at problem solving and actually thinking about the world and what he cares about. His "I'm not a twin anymore" line, while a bit dark for him, was right on point and I see it as one of his best moments in the comic.

Also I despise Redcloak post start of darkness.

Spoiler: SoD spoiler

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I think that's the point of the point really. Xykon nails him for being the whiny "evil for a good cause" while never really owning up to what he does, and Right-Eye absolutely destroyed Redcloak as a character by pointing out that he has never changed. That philosophy of throwing good after bad because Redcloak is so adamantly unwilling to admit that he made a mistake just disgusts me.

I just don't get you people and your "dislike" of Rich's characters. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and all, but - really?

Dislike as in "I do not like this person" is a sign of really good writing. I think Rich writes really well, both in making me like some characters and dislike others.

[jidasfire]

I just don't get you people and your "dislike" of Rich's characters. I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and all, but - really?

Did you even read what I said? It's nothing to do with thinking the characters are poorly written or wanting them gone.

[SavageWombat]

Did you even read what I said? It's nothing to do with thinking the characters are poorly written or wanting them gone.

Of course I read what you've said. I just haven't seen a character in the strip that wasn't awesome in his own way - although I guess I'm "on the fence" with characters like the gnome with the chocolate.

[Matt620]

Like the original poster, I flip-flopped a bit on Celia: I thought her introduction was kinda fun, and the lawyer part was nice. When she was in Don't Split the Party, I was annoyed by her, but not completely: I accepted the fact that she was naive about the world. I became less annoyed during the battle at Pete's house.

I liked Haley in the beginning, but in the Don't Split the Party Arc, I found her to be quite obnoxious. Most of it was her behavior towards Celia, but she was a total idiot in her reasoning to avoid Greysky. I know she has trust issues, but it would have been simple enough to say "I'm from Greysky, and persona non grata there. We can't go there." That would have been it.

Miko I found to be self-righteous and annoying on her first introduction, but when she fell, I felt sympathy. A little, but I'm of the belief that "the special mission from the Gods" Miko felt like she was on was a delusion she created to stop herself from succumbing to despair. Think about it: She's a little girl who loses her entire family all at once, and is forced to live in a monastery. That's a lot for a little girl to take in. Giving herself a purpose, even if she went about it wrong, gave her a reason to live. As Hinjo said, she makes bad decisions, but that's true about life.

Z grew on me a lot: His return in Book 5 made him awesome, and the little tidbits we get from his relationship with Nale made him cool. He and Nale were friends, genuine friends. I wanted to know more about him.

My opinion of Durkula, when Z was killed ignobly and then his body used as a joke, tanked immensely. I wanted Laurin to kill him, I really did.


Other than that, my opinion on most of the characters was consistent.

[Agnostik]

Not sure if it counts as "changing my mind", but I'm so bored of Elan and Haley these days, it's not even funny.

[mikeejimbo]

All right, here's the thing about Redcloak and Start of Darkness:

Spoiler: SoD Spoilers

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The Sapphire Guard waged a war of genocide against the goblins. Rich has time and time again said "Genocide is evil". If the goblins lose in the end, that kind of undermines the whole point, doesn't it? No one has learned anything about rights for stigmatized species, it just leaves the world with the same assumption: The good guys won and the goblins all died because goblins are evil!

And what really bothers me about that is that the goblins were created to be evil. They were literally created, by gods, to be killed. They are treated like cattle except instead of meat the point is to harvest XP from them. But worse, intelligent cattle capable of the self-awareness of their position. But they were also created to evil, so naturally they are going to lash out with an evil response, and in Redcloak's position, an eye for an eye (yes, intentional given Right-Eye, I'll get into it) seems fair to him, because he was created as an evil being and raised in an evil society.

Yes, individual goblins can overcome that, like Right-Eye did. Yes I get that I'm supposed to hate Redcloak for not overcoming that. But in real life, don't we understand people being damaged by their circumstances? Sure we still punish them when they lash out for it, but don't we really pity them, rather than hate them?

Don't we wish that the gods had, I dunno, not created the entire species to be bags of XP whose sole purpose in existence is literally to be killed???

Frankly, the gods can stuff it. I think they are evil, no matter if their 'alignment' says otherwise.

That said, I think that the goblins will not all die. I do think Redcloak will be punished, perhaps for eternity, but I also bet Rich is not going to undermine his point. I'm betting that there will be an outcome that will surprise - but satisfy - me.

[Angel Bob]

I find that character death has a great deal of power to influence someone's opinion of a character. Before the 830s, I was fairly apathetic about Tsukiko, but her death scene made me feel a little sorry for her (and it also provided a very impressive kill for Redcloak!).

In another example: I adore Malack. Not as a person, because he's a pretty scary level of evil, but as a character. He's just cool. He hit all the right chords with me. Obviously, when #906 came out, I was distraught, and greatly incensed that a buffoon like Nale got the drop on someone as awesome as Malack, who had so much potential. But after seeing forum discussions and analysis of Nale and Malack's past, and of Malack's ironic final words, my appreciation of Malack became more well-rounded; I accepted that he wasn't awesome all over, and had some notable flaws. I also came to appreciate Nale a lot more, though of course, not until his death scene.

I guess a character really does reveal a lot about who they really are as they lie dying, which is a very morbid but accurate interpretation of OotS.

[Rodin]

I'm gonna have to go with everybody else on these.

Celia was okay up until Greysky City, then she got annoying really fast.

Redcloak started out as meh, but once he got fleshed out he became more interesting. Xykon was still my favorite because I just love the "zany but really scary" villain type. Then came Redcloak's showdown with Tsukiko, and his awesome weasel out of it by telling Xykon nothing but the truth, just in such a way that he let Xykon draw his own (incorrect) conclusions, while also challenging Xykon to admit he'd sent Tsukiko in the first place. Marvelous stuff.

Malack was one of my favorite characters when he showed up - a guy proving that dark does not always equal evil, that even when you're involved in the running of an evil empire you can still be a pretty decent guy. Then came the scene in the pyramid....Brrrr. I cheered when Nale took him down.

For that matter, Nale is another one. He never got that much attention from me until his death scene, when he became a rather tragic character.

Moral of the story?

The Giant knows how to write really good death scenes.

[Anarion]

All right, here's the thing about Redcloak and Start of Darkness:

Spoiler: SoD Spoilers

Show

The Sapphire Guard waged a war of genocide against the goblins. Rich has time and time again said "Genocide is evil". If the goblins lose in the end, that kind of undermines the whole point, doesn't it? No one has learned anything about rights for stigmatized species, it just leaves the world with the same assumption: The good guys won and the goblins all died because goblins are evil!

And what really bothers me about that is that the goblins were created to be evil. They were literally created, by gods, to be killed. They are treated like cattle except instead of meat the point is to harvest XP from them. But worse, intelligent cattle capable of the self-awareness of their position. But they were also created to evil, so naturally they are going to lash out with an evil response, and in Redcloak's position, an eye for an eye (yes, intentional given Right-Eye, I'll get into it) seems fair to him, because he was created as an evil being and raised in an evil society.

Yes, individual goblins can overcome that, like Right-Eye did. Yes I get that I'm supposed to hate Redcloak for not overcoming that. But in real life, don't we understand people being damaged by their circumstances? Sure we still punish them when they lash out for it, but don't we really pity them, rather than hate them?

Don't we wish that the gods had, I dunno, not created the entire species to be bags of XP whose sole purpose in existence is literally to be killed???

Frankly, the gods can stuff it. I think they are evil, no matter if their 'alignment' says otherwise.

That said, I think that the goblins will not all die. I do think Redcloak will be punished, perhaps for eternity, but I also bet Rich is not going to undermine his point. I'm betting that there will be an outcome that will surprise - but satisfy - me.

Spoiler: SoD and character interpretation

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Ultimate victory is not and should not be the only way to judge who's right and wrong. The paladins were nearly all killed and their city burned to the ground because of the desire for revenge that their genocide created. Regardless of who wins or loses in the end, it's pretty clear that wiping out towns because "everyone is evil" is not okay and will have consequences.

What SoD teaches, and what I think you're missing, is that the way Redcloak is going about things is wrong. Like, really, really wrong. I didn't quite get it from the main comic because he just seemed like a bad guy with a dangerous plan to help the goblin people. But SoD shows us that there are other, better ways. Right-Eye's village, his family were ways for goblins to establish their place in the world, justify their own defense if needed, and not be evil. And Redcloak rejected it all. He stuck with Xykon and KILLED HIS OWN BROTHER because the thought of admitting that he was wrong was so unbearable. That's right into the unforgivable sins list as far as I'm concerned.

[B. Dandelion]

Spoiler: SoD and character interpretation

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But SoD shows us that there are other, better ways. Right-Eye's village, his family were ways for goblins to establish their place in the world, justify their own defense if needed, and not be evil. And Redcloak rejected it all.

Spoiler

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I wouldn't say he rejected Right-Eye's pacifistic approach. He was in the process of getting on board with it when Xykon showed up. Redcloak expressed some interest in the Plan when Xykon told him about it, but he didn't get the chance to make any kind of significant choice there at all. Xykon conscripted everybody then and there.

Right-Eye's next plan, the "kill Xykon" plan, he does reject, obviously. It was a plan that was doomed to failure and likely would have gotten every single goblin killed in retaliation, but Redcloak did choose to live as a willing slave rather than take his chances to die as a free goblin.

Which I feel is fair to criticize him on, depending on what you admire in a character. But also, it was a pretty crappy set of options he got stuck with either way.

[mikeejimbo]

Spoiler: SoD and character interpretation

Show

Ultimate victory is not and should not be the only way to judge who's right and wrong. The paladins were nearly all killed and their city burned to the ground because of the desire for revenge that their genocide created. Regardless of who wins or loses in the end, it's pretty clear that wiping out towns because "everyone is evil" is not okay and will have consequences.

What SoD teaches, and what I think you're missing, is that the way Redcloak is going about things is wrong. Like, really, really wrong. I didn't quite get it from the main comic because he just seemed like a bad guy with a dangerous plan to help the goblin people. But SoD shows us that there are other, better ways. Right-Eye's village, his family were ways for goblins to establish their place in the world, justify their own defense if needed, and not be evil. And Redcloak rejected it all. He stuck with Xykon and KILLED HIS OWN BROTHER because the thought of admitting that he was wrong was so unbearable. That's right into the unforgivable sins list as far as I'm concerned.

Spoiler: More SoD

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You're right, but I'll still be upset if everything is status quo for the goblins after this. Ideally the gods themselves would also get punished for putting the goblins in the position in the first place. I think Redcloak saw killing his brother as a sacrifice for the greater good, and without condoning it, I can see how he could see that. What upsets me is expecting Redcloak to not be evil when the gods created him that way, and not putting any blame on the gods for that.

[Porthos]

Spoiler: More SoD

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You're right, but I'll still be upset if everything is status quo for the goblins after this. Ideally the gods themselves would also get punished for putting the goblins in the position in the first place. I think Redcloak saw killing his brother as a sacrifice for the greater good, and without condoning it, I can see how he could see that. What upsets me is expecting Redcloak to not be evil when the gods created him that way, and not putting any blame on the gods for that.

I know I sound like a broken record when I say this, but I feel it is an important reminder:

Spoiler

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The only people who claim that the gods created the goblins (and others) to be XP fodder are the goblins themselves. Or, even more accurately, Redcloak.

Whether or not he is right, partially right, or just repeating propaganda has yet to be established.

[Cikomyr]

In another example: I adore Malack. Not as a person, because he's a pretty scary level of evil, but as a character. He's just cool. He hit all the right chords with me. Obviously, when #906 came out, I was distraught, and greatly incensed that a buffoon like Nale got the drop on someone as awesome as Malack, who had so much potential. But after seeing forum discussions and analysis of Nale and Malack's past, and of Malack's ironic final words, my appreciation of Malack became more well-rounded; I accepted that he wasn't awesome all over, and had some notable flaws. I also came to appreciate Nale a lot more, though of course, not until his death scene.

I guess a character really does reveal a lot about who they really are as they lie dying, which is a very morbid but accurate interpretation of OotS.

May I have link to this discussion, or at least the main points that convinced you? There might be insights into his character I missed

[Lombard]

I definitely like Elan way better since he's been fleshed out to be more than a three-beat joke machine. That's not a given however since I actually enjoyed V slightly more before the familicidal angst.

Celia really though? Maybe I need to go back and read her strips some more, I long ago had written her off as the manifestation of a desire to give Roy some token love interest that wouldn't need much story treatment and was logistically convenient.

[Rezby]

Belkar was really boring initially. Oh look, its yet another guy who is so evil and brutal but he can be put to good use so we keep him around. Yawn. characters who are evil for teh lulz are boring. Nothing hooks me into their story. Xykon? He was also kind of boring at first.

Belkar's vision quest though really made him into an actual character. The dot became a line became an irregular polygon became an irregular polyhedral became a person.

Xykon has had some characterization himself, too. His speech to Vaarsuvius when V was in the soul splice (I think the forum has dubbed that to be Darth Vaarsuvius?) was excellent. He's interesting, not because he's a big bad lich, but because of the characters he surrounds himself with. Tsukiko, Redcloack, the Monster in the Dark'ness. His interactions with them give him more personality. It's fantastic.

I think its kind of fitting, that as the comic's tone has turned darker and darker, from less slapstick every panel is D&D jokes, to more plot and drama, but still making cracks, Elan himself has also really matured. His character evolution has been more or less in keeping with the evolution of the plot, and I think that's great.

[oppyu]

Miko was one for me. After my first readthrough I was rushing a bit and didn't particularly like her. Second time over she came off more sympathetically, and it helped that I actually noticed that Roy was being the sleazy douche who refuses to take 'I have zero interest in you and am only travelling with you because you are my prisoner and I'm escorting you to serve trial for crimes for which the only possible sentence is death. I have literally tried to kill you.' for an answer.

[mikeejimbo]

I know I sound like a broken record when I say this, but I feel it is an important reminder:

Spoiler

Show

The only people who claim that the gods created the goblins (and others) to be XP fodder are the goblins themselves. Or, even more accurately, Redcloak.

Whether or not he is right, partially right, or just repeating propaganda has yet to be established.

I was just about to post this addendum myself. If it turns out he's wrong, I will breathe a sigh of relief. I'll still feel a little bad for the predicament, though.