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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Yes, I agree too. Boggling as it is that someone said he thought Rich was lying about not having stats for the characters, there's no real point to recording, "Rich reasserts that his previous statements were true."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Plus, the flippant tone is rather off-putting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gamera View Post
    To my taste, the flippant tone is rather awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    While... this is a really awesome (and imo funny) quote - it doesn't add anything new to the index.
    How about adding a category for humour, where witty remarks like thisw one can be listed.
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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Humorous and awesome yes, informative and new no. I don't see any reason to index it that's not stalkery.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    I agree with zimmerwald1915 here. While Dr. Gamera is right that this is a really awesome (and imo funny) quote - it doesn't add anything new to the index.
    NO! WE MUST FIGHT TO THE DEATH OVER THIS PERSPECTIVE WHICH I TOTALLY AGREE WITH -- oh, that is to say, never mind, carry on.

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayGriffin View Post
    The other post is fine, but I would argue against including this because the tone of this post is kinda harsh. Also, it doesn't really add anything new beyond "please don't be an asshat on the Giants behalf"
    Last edited by Silver Swift; 2013-12-21 at 10:42 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #306
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I agree that the further elaboration on spiked tentacles isn't needed.

    But I think the "The Giant decides how many spells Vaarsuvius has: a brief insight into the creative process" should be in the index.

    Knowing he doesn't keep stats does not tell us that he (very successfully) wings it. It would have been just as consistent with what was previously posted for the Giant to have said, "When it became relevant, I went back through the comics for this in-story day, counted up the spells V had used, and then did a quick scratchpad calculation about what should be left." Knowing he just said, "30 seems high, better make it 25" is new and (to me at least) very interesting information that gives more insight into how the Giant makes decisions about the mechanics and how they interact with his story.

    It's also a concrete example that the Giant's statless methodology is nonetheless pretty darn consistent with the rules (see the Geekery thread discussion for details). Which I find very impressive.

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    How about adding a category for humour, where witty remarks like thisw one can be listed.
    The purpose of this thread is a tool to find most needed quotes as quickly as possible to use them for discussions. Is it not there to list random comments Rich made. I would be against adding such a category. (Also this would probably add another bunch of additional work for ThePhantasm, and I think it is enough work without tracking funny quotes.)

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  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    Knowing he doesn't keep stats does not tell us that he (very successfully) wings it. It would have been just as consistent with what was previously posted for the Giant to have said, "When it became relevant, I went back through the comics for this in-story day, counted up the spells V had used, and then did a quick scratchpad calculation about what should be left." Knowing he just said, "30 seems high, better make it 25" is new and (to me at least) very interesting information that gives more insight into how the Giant makes decisions about the mechanics and how they interact with his story.
    I just don't see a big difference between "I did a quick eyeball calculation in my head" and "I did a quick eyeball calculation on the back of an envelope". Either way, what's going on is a quick eyeball calculation. Either way, it speaks to Rich's being quite good at quick eyeball calculations.

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    Knowing he doesn't keep stats does not tell us that he (very successfully) wings it. It would have been just as consistent with what was previously posted for the Giant to have said, "When it became relevant, I went back through the comics for this in-story day, counted up the spells V had used, and then did a quick scratchpad calculation about what should be left." Knowing he just said, "30 seems high, better make it 25" is new and (to me at least) very interesting information that gives more insight into how the Giant makes decisions about the mechanics and how they interact with his story.
    I tend to think of it as a useful-enough clarification that previous statements apply to spells-per-day calculations.

    Plus, it's so darn funny.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Funny as it may be, I see no point to including it. For me, it fails the smell test in a way the one about dethdates didn't.

    'sides, it comes down a bit too much on the stalkery side of the line for me.
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  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I wouldn't see any harm in just adding it as a supporting link right alongside the other 'He doesn't have his characters statted out' link, in a way that didn't take up any more room. It's nothing extremely new -- just sort of a re-iteration in different terms and a more exact insight into the process.

    But I'm good either way.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    ...but, he called it "Giant in the Playground presents…" ! It is a little play, and plays are for sharing! It is a jewel for OotS fandom to treasure for years and years!

    Okay I'm done.

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Plus, the flippant tone is rather off-putting.
    So you finally noticed it, too, huh?

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaylon View Post
    So you finally noticed it, too, huh?
    I really don't think this is the right thread to have this sort of discussion, personally.

    Saying that one doesn't think a comment should be in the list because of "X reason"? Fine.

    Having a discussion about "X reason"? Real quick way for this thread to get into areas it really shouldn't be, IMO.

    To put it another way, this is a thread indexing imporant and noteworthy comments about the work of The Order of the Stick and related topics. It isn't a thread devoted to talking about what we think of Rich's (or anyone else's for that matter) posting style.

    Just want to head this one off at the pass before it gets too entrenched as a topic of discussion.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2013-12-21 at 04:24 PM.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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  15. - Top - End - #315
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I just don't see a big difference between "I did a quick eyeball calculation in my head" and "I did a quick eyeball calculation on the back of an envelope". Either way, what's going on is a quick eyeball calculation. Either way, it speaks to Rich's being quite good at quick eyeball calculations.
    (Bolding mine) So either way, it's new information that I'd like to see in the index.

    It's funny, it's interesting, it provides new information, and it causes no harm whatsoever.

  16. - Top - End - #316
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Either way, it speaks to Rich's being quite good at quick eyeball calculations.
    Absolutely, and in particular, his ability to make the relatively fine distinction between 30 and 25 solely on the basis of a gut feeling makes it clear that he has a strong working knowledge of the 3e rules (not that we didn't know that already) as well as a strong conscious idea and a strong unconscious sense of what's occurring on-screen and off-screen in his story (not that we didn't know that already too).

  17. - Top - End - #317
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    My problem with having it recorded as evidence of Rich being good at quick eyeball calculations, is, well. The readers don't actually know that. What happens if ten comics from now, something happens that establishes Vaarsuvius' Intelligence as sufficiently high that "thirty" would have been correct, and the adjustment was unnecessary?

    Do you think Rich meant his "Giant in the Playground presents..." skit to nail down Vaarsuvius' maximum Intelligence? I sure don't.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  18. - Top - End - #318
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    "Rich is good at eyeball estimates" is a terrible conclusion to draw. It's an editorial interpretation based on a small sample size. That's not a good reason to put this in the index. He happened to be more or less consistent with the forum's estimates this time. Next time somebody will say "Yes but Rich is good at eyeball estimates so this is definitely correct!" No, it was coincidence.

    However: take out the editorial comment of "Rich is good at this!" and you have "Rich was just eyeballing it". That's factual and is a good reason to include the quote.
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

  19. - Top - End - #319
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Do you think Rich meant his "Giant in the Playground presents..." skit to nail down Vaarsuvius' maximum Intelligence? I sure don't.
    Of course not. He came up with a number that is consistent with all the other mechanics decisions he has made, and he meant his skit to indicate generally how he did so.

    Which happens to be something I'm interested in. His posts about his process are the things I like best about the index.

    ETA: The key thing for me is that he didn't just reiterate that he has no character sheets. He responded to the assertion that he does have character sheets by showing more about the process he does use.
    Last edited by Kalmegil; 2013-12-21 at 06:19 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #320
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    It's redundant with what we already know: that the Giant determines the characters abilities by feel and that they usually come out right because he's quite good at it. Plus, the flippant tone is rather off-putting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gamera View Post
    To my taste, the flippant tone is rather awesome.

    Also, I do want Indian food, thanks for asking! There's a lot to be said for eating vegetarian food from a cuisine that vegetarians have been perfecting for hundreds and hundreds of years.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    I agree with zimmerwald1915 here. While Dr. Gamera is right that this is a really awesome (and imo funny) quote - it doesn't add anything new to the index. The quotes we already have state a) that Rich doesn't follow D&D RAW and b) he has no stats for the characters.

    I think both quotes are more precise and should therefore be kept over the new one. And I don't think we need redundant information (and I don't think this adds more information to the thread other than the statement regarding Indian food, which is explicitly stated as information we don't collect).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    I agree that the further elaboration on spiked tentacles isn't needed.

    But I think the "The Giant decides how many spells Vaarsuvius has: a brief insight into the creative process" should be in the index.

    Knowing he doesn't keep stats does not tell us that he (very successfully) wings it. It would have been just as consistent with what was previously posted for the Giant to have said, "When it became relevant, I went back through the comics for this in-story day, counted up the spells V had used, and then did a quick scratchpad calculation about what should be left." Knowing he just said, "30 seems high, better make it 25" is new and (to me at least) very interesting information that gives more insight into how the Giant makes decisions about the mechanics and how they interact with his story.

    It's also a concrete example that the Giant's statless methodology is nonetheless pretty darn consistent with the rules (see the Geekery thread discussion for details). Which I find very impressive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaylon View Post
    So you finally noticed it, too, huh?
    Given that his hard drive burned out and he lost weeks worth of work, the case might be made that he could have been much more flippant and snarky. I detect restraint, especially since there is already a quote in the Index contradicting what the poster he was replying to said.

    (That being said, it probably doesn't need to go in the Index.)

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I see no reason to add it, and Rich has specifically asked us to be more careful about what we include, so I say nix it.
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  22. - Top - End - #322
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I see no reason to add it, and Rich has specifically asked us to be more careful about what we include, so I say nix it.
    Can you link to the post by the Giant you think indicates the 30-no-25-spells-left post shouldn't be included? Because I've seen a couple posts to which you might be referring, but none of them seemed targeted at this kind of post. It's not information meant for a specific, single poster, it addresses a common topic about, and any context is fully contained in the post (and the included quotes to which the Giant was responding).

    Also, what exactly do people mean by "no reason to add it"? There's no "reason" to add any quote to the index except that it's the kind of thing people are interested in knowing the Giant said and being able to locate it. This quote is of the same kind and contains the same type of information that's in many posts on many other topics.

    It's also not redundant, because it provides information not in other posts on the same topic.

    For the record, here is what I see as the reason for inclusion: It provides specific examples of how a key rules mechanics was written into the comic. The only reason to expressly exclude* it I've seen posted is what some people consider to be a flippant tone. I'm not sure I agree it's flippant, but the tone itself seems like a reason to post it.

    *I distinguish reasons to actively exclude from reasons a post is not needed for inclusion, most of which are claims that it doesn't add any information, or that the information it does add isn't important. But it undoubtedly does add some new information, and it's important to some of us.

    Is "I'm not interested in this particular tidbit of information" really a reason to deny inclusion to those who are interested? Shouldn't we be excluding posts because there are reasons to exclude them, not because one poster "see[s] no reason to add" them?

    "Rich is good at eyeball estimates" is a terrible conclusion to draw. It's an editorial interpretation based on a small sample size.
    I don't think people were drawing a conclusion. The words used were "recorded as evidence of Rich being good at quick eyeball calculations" or "speaks to Rich's being quite good at quick eyeball calculations." It undoubtedly does both.

    Evidence is not proof. It's something that, if true, makes a particular conclusion more likely than if the evidence were not true. This example fully qualifies. Rich was good in this specific instance at making a quick eyeball calculation. It doesn't mean he always will be. But it's proof that he can do it at least once, and evidence that it's a skill he possesses.

    BTW, the fact that this type of assessment is more accurate with larger sample sizes is another reason it should be in the index, despite any alleged redundancy (which I don't really see existing, anyway). (And I know you, Fish, advocated its inclusion).

  23. - Top - End - #323
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I did advocate its inclusion, for the purpose of clarifying that "Rich made a guess" versus "Rich has the full character sheet handy and calculated a hard number." That is why I consider the quote useful.

    I would reject its inclusion if it were used to prop up a subjective opinion, viz, "Rich guesses this kind of thing really well." Stick to reporting the facts, I say.
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

  24. - Top - End - #324
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I would reject its inclusion if it were used to prop up a subjective opinion, viz, "Rich guesses this kind of thing really well." Stick to reporting the facts, I say.
    Inclusion isn't "for" anything. I know why I want it included. I'm fine if you want it included for some other reason. But in either case, that reason shouldn't appear in the index, anyway.

  25. - Top - End - #325
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    Given that his hard drive burned out and he lost weeks worth of work
    Wait, what? That's terrible!
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  26. - Top - End - #326
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    Wait, what? That's terrible!
    He announced it on twitter: "My hard drive is a brick, and my backup failed. But the backup to the backup succeeded, albeit w/o much of the stuff I did after Nov 11."

    (I'd link, but unsure how to link to individual tweets).

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    FWIW, I vote not to include the post about spell amount. Contra Kalmegil, I do not see how it tells us anything we don't have less vaguely stated in other quotes.

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  27. - Top - End - #327
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I might just be blind, but I didn't see the 'The Giant is not going to make any more rape jokes' quote? The subject seems to keep coming up in speculation (What if Sabine did something while V is tied up? What if Laurin kidnapped Julio Scoundrel and used him as a special slave? What if V used 'Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion' on Laurin?)
    Last edited by oppyu; 2013-12-21 at 11:22 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Here's what was said:

    Rich Burlew ‏@RichBurlew 17 Dec

    My hard drive is a brick, and my backup failed. But the backup to the backup succeeded, albeit w/o much of the stuff I did after Nov 11.
    Rich Burlew ‏@RichBurlew 17 Dec

    OOTS 931-934 originals are gone. I'll have to recreate hi-res versions for the book using the lo-res online ones as a guide.

  29. - Top - End - #329
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
    I might just be blind, but I didn't see the 'The Giant is not going to make any more rape jokes' quote? The subject seems to keep coming up in speculation (What if Sabine did something while V is tied up? What if Laurin kidnapped Julio Scoundrel and used him as a special slave? What if V used 'Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion' on Laurin?)
    Don't worry, they are there:


    Quote Originally Posted by GrayGriffin View Post
    Just kind of buried under a very long discussion about whether or not the author is being flippant and how exact his guesstimates are.
    Last edited by sam79; 2013-12-22 at 04:47 AM.
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame of Anor View Post
    Wait, what? That's terrible!
    Wow, that definitely sucks
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