The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yes, we should include the illusion quote.

[Flame of Anor]

Yes to the illusion quote.

[dps]

I agree. For me, the strip makes it incredibly clear that they left the illusion. And yet...

YES, obviously (to me) the quote should be included in the index. Just because it was clear to me doesn't mean it was clear to everybody.

I really don't get the desire to be so fussy about what goes into the index. It's not like space is an issue.

Well put. I agree, so obviously I also vote yes.

[LadyEowyn]

I would say no, don't include the quote that they're no longer in the illusion. At this point it's incredibly obvious. (And we see things Team Tarquin are doing when the Order aren't near them, so it would be impossible for them to still be in the illusion.)

[genderlich]

Yes. The fact that threads are still being started about it means that it's something like Z's scrying sensor that's going to have to be dispelled over and over again.

[Gwynfrid]

Voting Yes on the illusion quote. Sure, it says something that's blindingly obvious to the majority of readers. But there can always be people who wonder about it for a variety of reasons - newbies, folks who like to second-guess every single thing, or people who are impressed by a cleverly presented joke... The thread is there to serve everybody. Nipping boring illusion theories in the bud is worth doing.

Generally I think any quote should be included if it's relevant to the comic (not about something else), new (not redundant), and non-trivial (has some minimum level of substance).

[Kalrany]

Another yes. For all the reasons stated by others.

[DeliaP]

Chipping in with a yes, include the illusion quote.

I have enjoyed silly illusion theory threads, and I have participated in them, but I want to also have an easy to find Giant refutation to taking them at all seriously.

[Doran]

Couldn't we pull out these votes into an Index discussion thread, and just have this one for posting new possible entries?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Couldn't we pull out these votes into an Index discussion thread, and just have this one for posting new possible entries?

The mods probably wouldn't like that. I'd prefer voting by PM, and Phantasm just having one post where he tabulates votes (and have implemented such system in the MitD thread a couple of times now), but given the number of votes, Phantasm's PM box might not be up to the strain.

Grey Wolf

[ChristianSt]

The mods probably wouldn't like that. I'd prefer voting by PM, and Phantasm just having one post where he tabulates votes (and have implemented such system in the MitD thread a couple of times now), but given the number of votes, Phantasm's PM box might not be up to the strain.

Grey Wolf

ThePhantasm also said that the voting-process is not only for voting, but also for discussing - he posted several incidents, where forumites changed their vote because of the ongoing discussion. Reducing this to PM-vote would make any discussion much harder.


Splitting this in a second thread would imo a bad idea. (And not only because of forum rules. "One Topic, One Thread")

[Grey_Wolf_c]

ThePhantasm also said that the voting-process is not only for voting, but also for discussing - he posted several incidents, where forumites changed their vote because of the ongoing discussion. Reducing this to PM-vote would make any discussion much harder.

You misunderstand my point: I was referring to all those posts with just "Yes" or "no" (and some way of filling up the requisite ten characters). The posts that want to discuss are free to happen. The ones that feel very spammy and use up significant forum space are the ones that are just votes.

I know from experience that setting up new threads is a pain, especially when there are several "first post"s that need to be carried over. These page-filling "yes" and "no" posts just eat away the thread.

Grey Wolf

[Taelas]

Perhaps, as an alternative, we could ask a mod to remove the posts once voting has concluded?

[DrBurr]

Yes, seems to be a frequent enough question

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Perhaps, as an alternative, we could ask a mod to remove the posts once voting has concluded?

They dislike that too. I believe the reason is that deleting posts messes with the database, so they'd rather we didn't do it unless absolutely necessary.

GW

[NerdyKris]

But there can always be people who wonder about it for a variety of reasons - newbies, folks who like to second-guess every single thing, or people who are impressed by a cleverly presented joke...

And children and people who aren't as skilled in reading as the majority. I think people have a tendency to forget that not everyone on the forum has the knowledge in a subject they do. (I do it to on occasion). There's a lot of fans who are either just learning to read stuff at a higher grade level or still unable to progress past that. Or they might just not read much at all. Meaning they don't have experience in what constitutes a good plot twist.

That can lead to fans who might not realize that a plot point of "Oh, they were in the illusion all along!" is ridiculous and 100% unlikely. We should probably keep definitive responses about the plot by the Giant in the index for those readers. Not the majority.

[Sir_Leorik]

You misunderstand my point: I was referring to all those posts with just "Yes" or "no" (and some way of filling up the requisite ten characters). The posts that want to discuss are free to happen. The ones that feel very spammy and use up significant forum space are the ones that are just votes.

I know from experience that setting up new threads is a pain, especially when there are several "first post"s that need to be carried over. These page-filling "yes" and "no" posts just eat away the thread.

Grey Wolf

I think that the only reason to switch to PM for votes would be if we want to switch to secret ballots, and my understanding is that the whole point of voting is that we have an open discussion of the quote(s) being contested. In the past, on at least one occasion I've changed my mind and switched from a No vote to a Yes vote because of arguments included with someone's vote.

I understand your concern about votes eating up pages, but it seems like a necessary evil due to having an open vote.

[ChristianSt]

You misunderstand my point: I was referring to all those posts with just "Yes" or "no" (and some way of filling up the requisite ten characters). The posts that want to discuss are free to happen. The ones that feel very spammy and use up significant forum space are the ones that are just votes.

I know from experience that setting up new threads is a pain, especially when there are several "first post"s that need to be carried over. These page-filling "yes" and "no" posts just eat away the thread.

Grey Wolf

I didn't misunderstood you. But I think a large amount of the votes with content wouldn't happen in a private vote. So while there might be still some discussion happening, I think it would be less. And I personally would find it more troublesome for me to vote and discuss separately.

Yeah, the post-consumption isn't great, but the other option isn't strictly better imo.

[ThePhantasm]

Voting will be open until Midnight EST.

I'm aware that the current voting system is perhaps less than ideal... let's have a discussion about improving it once this current vote is done.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think that the only reason to switch to PM for votes would be if we want to switch to secret ballots, and my understanding is that the whole point of voting is that we have an open discussion of the quote(s) being contested. In the past, on at least one occasion I've changed my mind and switched from a No vote to a Yes vote because of arguments included with someone's vote.

I understand your concern about votes eating up pages, but it seems like a necessary evil due to having an open vote.

It does not require a secret ballot. All it requires is a post with a table that lists people that have voted, and what they have voted. Those that want to add a reasoning can still post ("I just sent my "Yes" vote, because....") whilst those of us that, like me, feel I shouldn't be posting just for two/three letters can PM phantasm without guilt.

Such table would also make counting the votes easier all around, rather than relying on the gut feeling of "well, it seems like the 'yes' are ahead by a bit" which fails when people change their votes.

The idea that not seeing people vote chills the voting is compensated with the fact that seeing people vote one way may stop others from voting because "well, yes is ahead, I need not bother, my vote won't make a difference anyway".

This is all academical, anyway, since in the end it's Phatasm's thread to curate. I already changed my curated thread to do it my preferred way.

Edit:

I'm aware that the current voting system is perhaps less than ideal... let's have a discussion about improving it once this current vote is done.

OK, maybe not as academical as I thought. ThePhantasm: you are running this show, and I think you are doing a great job at it; I would run voting differently (heck, I do run voting differently), but my thread does not get anywhere near the activity of this one, and I have no idea if the PM voting scales, or if it even applies to your case. I will not be angry if my alternative is unworkable, or less preferable than the current system.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

Moving to a PM vote system may have a chilling effect on votes, but I think this is a good thing. When people investigate this thread, they're going to see what we are up to. If the thread contains sightings of Giant quotes and little else, then people will participate in that way. If they see pages upon pages of voting and discussion over a single quote, they'll jump in and do that.

What kind of a thread is this? Because I liked it when it was the first kind. I stopped checking it for a while because there was never anything in it but voting. Open voting, constant voting, encourages more of same. How you/we run the thread teaches people what the thread is for.

Anyway, carry on.

[allenw]

He's basically already asked that the thread not do what you're proposing.

Can you provide a link to that? Because I don't remember such a request.
What I do remember is this post (which ironically took me forever to find; Google was no help, even though the criteria I supplied should have found it). In particular, he said::

I am fully in support of this project to document stuff I’ve said about OOTS so that people can stop arguing about it, but there has to be a line drawn. And I think that line is when I’m talking about other topics on other parts of this message board. Because otherwise, it’s like following me around with a tape recorder and everything I say about any topic becomes “on the record.” And that’s just creepy.
...
If it’s not about OOTS and/or it’s not in the OOTS board, I'd ask that it not be in the index.

I don't see any conflict between that, and:

I am of the opinion that all this wrangling and voting is a deterrent to Rich's free communication. I wonder if he becomes less likely to share, knowing that every word will be dissected and debated and rated on its worthiness. (That probably happens anyway but there's no reason we must make it worse.) Include the quotes as a matter of course, if they are clearly OOTS-related and not redundant to other things in the Index.

Moreover, ThePhantasm has already stated that he's not going to maintain a thread that amounts to adding every new post the Giant makes to an ever-increasing Index.

I agree that limiting ThePhantasm's workload is a valid reason not to index every comment. But it's not the reason that most objectors cite; and no-one is currently suggesting indexing every comment. As a long-time reader, I kind of get the impression that ThePhantasm would rather spend time indexing comments than spend it dealing with arguments and votes (and that the arguments/votes take more time and energy than the indexing would); but I could just be projecting.

[super dark33]

What i get from the current discussions:

1) We need to vote on a new way to vote.

2) We need to start a ThePhantasm quote Index.



Anyway voting Yes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see any conflict between that, and

The conflict is that the second quote claims that Rich may be posting less because of our discussion here. The first post states that Rich would be posting less if we added everything he posts to the index. Suggesting, as in the second post, that if we stop arguing and index everything Rich may post more often is directly contradicted by the first, in which Rich states that if we keep indexing everything he will post less often.

The devil, as always, is in the details. What Fish and I usually consider "relevant to OotS" does not match what others consider likewise.

Edit: for what is worth, I don't think the issue here is if Rich would want us to have these discussions and vote on them - I disagree with Fish in his position on this matter - but what the mods wants us to do. They said that these community project threads need to be run on a consensus, and I don't know of any other way to establish consensus than voting. If Rich [in his author hat, rather than his mod hat] does or does not like the voting, I cannot say.

Grey Wolf

[SaintRidley]

It has to do with OotS. As such, I think it merits inclusion. So yes.

[kgato503]

I vote Yes to including the illusion quote. It does seem to come up enough that having the quote easily accessible would be of benefit to a number of users.

[allenw]

The conflict is that the second quote claims that Rich may be posting less because of our discussion here. The first post states that Rich would be posting less if we added everything he posts to the index. Suggesting, as in the second post, that if we stop arguing and index everything Rich may post more often is directly contradicted by the first, in which Rich states that if we keep indexing everything he will post less often.

I don't think Fish's implication that the wrangling here actually discourages Rich from posting is particularly likely (though it does have some mild justification, since Rich has indeed said in other contexts that people over-analyzing everything he says may discourage him from posting). But it's not contradicted by what Rich said in the first quote, since Rich was explicitly complaining about people indexing his statements that are unrelated to OotS, and Fish is explicitly talking about Rich's statements that are related to OotS.

The devil, as always, is in the details. What Fish and I usually consider "relevant to OotS" does not match what others consider likewise.

So I've seen. But I would have thought that it would be uncontroversial to assert that "relevant to OotS" includes, at a minimum, Rich's statements that are explicitly about OotS. By definition, such statements satisfy Rule B.

Of course, some of the controversy seems to involves Rules C (the thread is a forum tool), D (keep only the most recent of contradictory quotes), and E (avoid redundancy; also, avoid redundancy ). Suffice it to say that I'm not inclined to interpret those rules as intended to exclude most quotes.

[oppyu]

Call me heretical, but there's something bemusing about tip-toeing around what we would normally be inclined to do so that the Giant continues to pass the holy word down from on high. "Oh no, we can't add just any quote! Then the Giant will stop sharing his wisdom with us!"

[Jasdoif]

Call me heretical, but there's something bemusing about tip-toeing around what we would normally be inclined to do so that the Giant continues to pass the holy word down from on high. "Oh no, we can't add just any quote! Then the Giant will stop sharing his wisdom with us!"

What about "Oh no, we can't vote on just any quote! Then the Giant will stop sharing his wisdom with us!" Is that more or less bemusing?

[oppyu]

What about "Oh no, we can't vote on just any quote! Then the Giant will stop sharing his wisdom with us!" Is that more or less bemusing?

I think this whole thread is beginning to seem bemusing, to be honest. If the ideal scenario is that the Giant feels comfortable to post to his heart's content about this comic, then this thread isn't doing any favours. If the ideal scenario is to have a handy reference guide to all the canon established by Word of Giant as well as an alert for whenever the Giant does post, then this thread is the best way to go about it.

So, what's the ideal scenario?