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  1. - Top - End - #991
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    I agree it should be both. We include the transcript in full since it is a massive OOTS Q&A, but also put a few of the important things in the index.

    • Elan's mother
    • Which OOTS member are you (maybe, not sure)
    • The plot being rearranged or expanded
    • percentage of story as of this book
    • The extra battle in this book and the split.
    • Evolution of the story
    • Map of oots world
    • VECTOR LEGION
    • Printing the KS stories (I think this is already in the index)
    • Durkon as a thrall
    • Strong female character
    Of those, I'd include the plot, the evolution, Vector Legion, printing the stories, and possibly Durkon as a thrall and the extra battle/split (because the question of why this book is so big is a reasonable one).

    The rest don't really tell us much.

    Elan's mother was alive at the start, and she hasn't been included in the story in any way, so status quo means she's alive.

    The percent was maybe a ballpark figure, but come on. It had 4 or 5 decimal points and isn't set in stone anyway. Filing it under joke.

    If it was a link TO the map, I'd include that, but merely that a map exists? I'd assume it did based on the idea that every fantasy author I've ever heard of who created a world also created a map of that world.

    Strong female character? Way too vague.

  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    Elan's mother was alive at the start, and she hasn't been included in the story in any way, so status quo means she's alive.

    Strong female character? Way too vague.
    This I agree with. We're clearly meant to assume Elan's mother is alive, and that should be all that's relevant to discussion. And yeah, I don't see much use in saving info on some 'strong female characters are coming up'. It's temporary at best, like "How long will the break be."

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    The percent was maybe a ballpark figure, but come on. It had 4 or 5 decimal points and isn't set in stone anyway. Filing it under joke.
    This one, I think, is not a joke, however. I mean, he added ludicrous precision as a joke, of course, but ~70% is precisely where we should be right now, based on what he's said in the past (that we were past the halfway point at the end of Book 4) and what he's said about how much longer there is (at least three years. We're at over ten years right now, and if you assume a fifteen-year run, say, we're at the 70% mark now.)

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    If it was a link TO the map, I'd include that, but merely that a map exists? I'd assume it did based on the idea that every fantasy author I've ever heard of who created a world also created a map of that world.
    I'd agree if Rich was the kind of author to stat out his characters fully and iron out their abilities beforehand, but he's said that he leaves gaps specifically so he can make jokes or impact the plot as he needs to later on. It would not be outside the line of reasonable thought to assume that he doesn't have the world set in stone to a further degree than the number of continents and vague ideas of the kind of climates and races found on each. If he really does have the whole OotSworld mapped out as extensively as we've seen here, then to be honest I am a bit surprised.

    I mean, it makes sense. I just think it makes sense to think otherwise, too.
    Last edited by The Linker; 2014-02-18 at 04:29 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    5/7 = 71.42857... %

    The Giant's figure is just a little shy of that, so we can safely say we're 5/7ths done with the comic. It's not especially new information, but it is a reaffirmation that we're getting 2 more books of content (however many pages they may have).

  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Recreator View Post
    5/7 = 71.42857... %

    The Giant's figure is just a little shy of that, so we can safely say we're 5/7ths done with the comic. It's not especially new information, but it is a reaffirmation that we're getting 2 more books of content (however many pages they may have).
    That explicitly is not new information because he had already confirmed 2 books left.

  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    OK, archiving non-OOTS comments was sketchy enough, but Twitter? This is getting stalkery.
    A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.

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  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I say include only relevant comments in the main section, but include a link to the transcript of all the OOTS-related ones, even the jokes. They're fun enough to read and it's not any less useful than the google search.
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    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tragak View Post
    OK, archiving non-OOTS comments was sketchy enough, but Twitter? This is getting stalkery.
    Not really. It's a public account and he was specifically answering questions thrown at him.
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  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I'm gonna hold off on any transcription until people decide what they want transcribed.

    And if someone else wants to do it, fine by me.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    I'm gonna hold off on any transcription until people decide what they want transcribed.

    And if someone else wants to do it, fine by me.
    Check it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    I say include only relevant comments in the main section, but include a link to the transcript of all the OOTS-related ones, even the jokes. They're fun enough to read and it's not any less useful than the google search.
    I agree. We should include those comments that are relevant (as per Index rules) like any other quotes. The whole transcript is a fun read, but it's secondary to the purposes of the Index. A link will do fine.
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  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tragak View Post
    OK, archiving non-OOTS comments was sketchy enough, but Twitter? This is getting stalkery.
    Its the official twitter account for the Order of the Stick. He doesn't use it for personal updates, mostly just for site / strip updates. So no, it isn't stalkery... the Twitter account was specifically made to communicate information about the strip and about the Kickstarter project.
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  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwynfrid View Post
    Ah. hadn't caught he had finished it. Last I had seen, he was saying he was going to do it.

    Thanks, ChristianSt!
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    hmmm. So we should probably update that entry to say "But that doesn't mean Durkon was a non theistic cleric". Or maybe remove it entirely now since Durkon is clearly worshiping Hel?

  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Yeah, that quote is only relevant in regard of that other quote. Save that, it's now obvious that Durkula is worshiping Hel.

  15. - Top - End - #1005
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    ThePhantasm will have particular interest this announcement about changes to how TABLE codes will work in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    hmmm. So we should probably update that entry to say "But that doesn't mean Durkon was a non theistic cleric". Or maybe remove it entirely now since Durkon is clearly worshiping Hel?
    I like the updating solution. But as I've said in the past, I lean toward inclusion unless there's a strong reason to remove.
    Last edited by Zherog; 2014-02-19 at 11:47 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    guess I can't delete after all... sorry for the double post...
    Last edited by Zherog; 2014-02-19 at 11:48 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    I like the updating solution. But as I've said in the past, I lean toward inclusion unless there's a strong reason to remove.
    Yes, but at this point the "how is durkon casting spells" question is answered by reading the strip until the end of the current book. So I question if there's any need for it in the index at all. We wouldn't put, for instance, a quote about how long Haley is going to have aphasia in the index, because that's answered in comic. Or "will we ever see Elan and Nale's father".

    The actual line in the index is "Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells: A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.". I'd argue this is now false information, as he does indeed worship a deity.

  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Yeah, no one caught up with the comic will ever find that a relevant piece of information. It's interesting in that it's an example of the kind of stuff Rich will say when he's trying to throw people off the scent of his plot twists, but I don't think that falls under the purview of the index.

  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Here are the quotes from the Twitter thing that I think should be included in the Index:
    Spoiler
    Show

    I think that means I'm in agreement with orrion, except I'm also supporting the inclusion of the one about a Nale/Malack/Tarquin prequel book.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    Shouldn't be difficult to update our tables, given how consistent their structure is; my question in that thread about colsp is probably the only thing keeping us from having it ready to update ahead of time.

    I suppose it does mean I should avoid using tables in the interim though, if they're going to break when the update happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    Yes, but at this point the "how is durkon casting spells" question is answered by reading the strip until the end of the current book. So I question if there's any need for it in the index at all. We wouldn't put, for instance, a quote about how long Haley is going to have aphasia in the index, because that's answered in comic. Or "will we ever see Elan and Nale's father".

    The actual line in the index is "Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells: A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.". I'd argue this is now false information, as he does indeed worship a deity.
    I don't think it's strictly false, just that it hints at an incorrect conclusion...like the quoted post itself, really.

    Still, I'm not in favor of misleading entries in the Index (that's like the opposite of clarity), so I'm in favor of changing the entry; and with an update on the table I don't see why a removal shouldn't be considered. And like you said, the original question no longer applies so I don't think it's particularly useful to keep.
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  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I don't think it's strictly false, just that it hints at an incorrect conclusion...like the quoted post itself, really.
    Agreed. The quote isn't false, in that everything Rich said was true - and remains true. The issue, such that it is, is that everybody assumed Rich's answer applied to Durkon, when it's clear now that it doesn't.

    Still, I'm not in favor of misleading entries in the Index (that's like the opposite of clarity), so I'm in favor of changing the entry; and with an update on the table I don't see why a removal shouldn't be considered. And like you said, the original question no longer applies so I don't think it's particularly useful to keep.
    I think the pair of quotes can still be useful to demonstrate Rich's writing / storytelling style - his use of misdirection specifically in this instance.

    that said, while I'm a "lean toward inclusion" guy, I certainly recognize that some things don't belong, and some things used to belong but become obsolete.
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  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    I think the pair of quotes can still be useful to demonstrate Rich's writing / storytelling style - his use of misdirection specifically in this instance.
    So...you're of thinking something like making the entry title "Newly Vampirized Clerics can Still Cast Spells", and adding into the summary "See also here, on the Giant's misdirection of Durkon as a new vampire with this quote"?
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  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    Yes, but at this point the "how is durkon casting spells" question is answered by reading the strip until the end of the current book. So I question if there's any need for it in the index at all. We wouldn't put, for instance, a quote about how long Haley is going to have aphasia in the index, because that's answered in comic. Or "will we ever see Elan and Nale's father".

    The actual line in the index is "Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells: A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.". I'd argue this is now false information, as he does indeed worship a deity.
    It's misleading when applied to Durkon in hindsight, but none of the information standing alone is false. Clerics don't need to worship a deity to cast spells because the rules allow for non-theistic clerics.

  23. - Top - End - #1013
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    So...you're of thinking something like making the entry title "Newly Vampirized Clerics can Still Cast Spells", and adding into the summary "See also here, on the Giant's misdirection of Durkon as a new vampire with this quote"?
    Yeah, something along those lines. Swing the focus more towards Rich's subterfuge / misdirection within the story. I think it's a great read for those who read OotS with an eye toward story creation.

    And, of course, if I'm in the minority, then so be it.
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  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Correct, I meant in regards to Durkon, not the information itself. I was unclear.

  25. - Top - End - #1015
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    Yeah, something along those lines. Swing the focus more towards Rich's subterfuge / misdirection within the story. I think it's a great read for those who read OotS with an eye toward story creation.

    And, of course, if I'm in the minority, then so be it.
    I don't know. It seems more an example of his subterfuge on the forums than subterfuge in the story. Yes, he misdirected us on the forums to influence our perspective on the story...but including that seems kinda meta to me.

  26. - Top - End - #1016
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Shouldn't be difficult to update our tables, given how consistent their structure is; my question in that thread about colsp is probably the only thing keeping us from having it ready to update ahead of time.
    OK, Rawhide just said we won't have the option for column spanning "out of the gate", which will complicate some things....Adding the table titles as a line of text above the table isn't a problem, but some of the tables have subheadings in the middle (for example the table for the alignment of specific characters has groupings for Evil Characters, Good Characters and Neutral Characters). That's not going to work out so well.

    The options I'm seeing are....
    • Put the subheaders in the single widest cell of a table row, keeping the other cells blank (and hope the off-centered subheaders don't look too bad)
    • Split the tables into new tables for each subsection, so each subheader becomes the title of a new table.
    • Remove the subheaders and group the entries together.


    I'm thinking we split the tables where there's a lot of entries in each subsection ("Characters: Items and Stats" has nearly ten entries each of its two sections), and remove subheaders from the other tables (the specific character alignments table has ten entries total).
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  27. - Top - End - #1017
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    OK, Rawhide just said we won't have the option for column spanning "out of the gate", which will complicate some things....Adding the table titles as a line of text above the table isn't a problem, but some of the tables have subheadings in the middle (for example the table for the alignment of specific characters has groupings for Evil Characters, Good Characters and Neutral Characters). That's not going to work out so well.

    The options I'm seeing are....
    • Put the subheaders in the single widest cell of a table row, keeping the other cells blank (and hope the off-centered subheaders don't look too bad)
    • Split the tables into new tables for each subsection, so each subheader becomes the title of a new table.
    • Remove the subheaders and group the entries together.


    I'm thinking we split the tables where there's a lot of entries in each subsection ("Characters: Items and Stats" has nearly ten entries each of its two sections), and remove subheaders from the other tables (the specific character alignments table has ten entries total).
    I don't think it makes any sense to worry about this before the actual changes is here, since it isn't really possible to test how things will work exactly. For example it could be possible to use nested tables to simulate spanning cells.

    I personally don't think it will be that much work to update the Index to the new code, though some things (like the missing spanning), could make things a bit harder.

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    How about making the new entry, "If Rich Says That Something Is Either Irrelevant Or Incorrect And Irrelevant, The Focus Should Probably Be On Irrelevant, Not Incorrect"? *ducks*
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    I don't think it makes any sense to worry about this before the actual changes is here, since it isn't really possible to test how things will work exactly. For example it could be possible to use nested tables to simulate spanning cells.
    It'd still be good to have an idea on which way to go ahead of time in case it ends up not being workaround-able, I think. Then again I'm not really a fan of the subheaders in the first place, so I might be biased. (And nesting tables sounds painful.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    How about making the new entry, "If Rich Says That Something Is Either Irrelevant Or Incorrect And Irrelevant, The Focus Should Probably Be On Irrelevant, Not Incorrect"? *ducks*
    I think it could benefit from a semicolon somewhere.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2014-02-19 at 08:06 PM.
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    Default Re: The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)

    Where's that quote about how Tarquin is the one who portrays himself as super competent (and we shouldn't necessarily believe him)?
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