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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Is destroying a plane impossible?

    So little back story first. My half sand dragon Walker of the Wastes is trying to destroy the elemental plane of water. He believes that Water is the basis of all sin and that by destroying this plane he will go a long way toward his goal. He has all the time in the world to wipe the rest of water from the face of the earth and slowly purge this addiction from the planet, either though rings of substance or Leading people to a truly enlightened form of undead.

    So how do i Destroy the Elemental Plane of water?.......

    Thing is, that my DM lacks creativity and tends to follow ripped off story's plot lines and probably wont help me. Leaving me to Come up with it on my own. I've read a lot of other boards and discussions on destroying the earth, sun, and other extreme similar circumstances, but none solve my dilemma. Even Broken and outright Cheese offers extremely little. Destroying infinity is seeming to be impossible without dm fiat.

    Any help or suggestions would be nice.
    Notes:
    -all official books are ok. Also Dragon Mag, BoEF, and beyond monk.
    -Rules must be reasonable. No extreme stretching(but moderate is OK)
    -Science is ok, even if not raw. Dm is engineer. its why we don't let him play characters anymore.
    -The water needs to be Completely destroyed or inaccessible. Time of completion is unimportant.
    -Ask me any questions...

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Sith_Happens's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitbix View Post
    Thing is, that my DM lacks creativity and tends to follow ripped off story's plot lines and probably wont help me.
    Go to the largest library in the campaign world and tell him you're researching whether there's some powerful artifact lost to the bowels of time that could accomplish such a feat. If he doesn't take the bait, it means his DM bone is broken and he needs to be put down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    I'm not sure that it can be done short of Overdeity powers, since even epic magic is limited by range/area (while the Elemental Plane of Water is infinite, AFAIK), IIRC. Would your character settle for permanently destroying as many ways of getting there (or all ways) instead?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Yes, the underwear of my epic wizards are more than capable of conquering your average world on their own.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    1. Find the Plug
    2. Remove it


    There are several dubious tricks, such as:

    • Go to Elemental plane of Water
    • Get wet
    • Iron Heart Surge away the cause of the wetness


    Mirror Move (If I've remembered the name correctly)
    It's a spell which uses a reflecting object as a material component — use the surface of the water.

    More seriously:
    There is an infinite amount of water on the elemental plane.
    Destroying a finite amount of water for a finite time isn't going to do it.
    Last edited by nedz; 2013-11-11 at 07:00 AM.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Sith_Happens's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Mirror Move (If I've remembered the name correctly)
    It's a spell which uses a reflecting object as a material component — use the surface of the water.
    The Plane of Water maybe has a surface if you can find a structure with an air pocket.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Dust of Dryness. A lot of it.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    I dont think that it is possible to remove one of the fore basic elements of the multivers. Doing that I believe will unravel reality itself. But again... Up to the dm.

    I will say though, that since its infinite that alone should make it impossible. The plane og water expands with an ever increasing speed, thus making an exponential more amount of water this second compared to the last second.

    I would say no. You cant destroy it.
    Last edited by Melcar; 2013-11-11 at 07:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    You might have better luck separating your prime world from having access to it, e.g. whatever effect Athas has that blocks it from the outer planes, but for the inner planes instead.

    Destroying an outer plane, even an infinite one, is something you could do by altering the alignment of each of its layers (which can be done by a finite number of individuals, interestingly enough - the same way that the Harmonium caused a layer of Arcadia to fall to Mechanus). For an inner plane though, they tend to be much more 'substance-based' rather than 'belief-based' so you're going to be tangling directly with those infinities.

    Mathematically, you need a continuous process that grows like the square of its current value (or faster) to get a finite-time singularity. If you could someone build a spell engine using e.g. Energy Transformation Field such that the number of copies of a spell effect grew like N^2, that nearly does it (except that its not a continuous process so it wouldn't really hit infinity). The best I know how to construct has a growth rate that goes like N though (ETF to summon lantern archons to power the ETF to summon more lantern archons...), so you just get exponential growth, not singular growth.

    Also, destroying the elemental plane of water would surely end the campaign and, more or less, the cosmology, so logically it shouldn't be something that is 'easy' to do, and you can basically expect to fail once anything with divination powers get even an inkling that you could possibly succeed. Basically all living creatures everywhere with water-based bodies would just cease, which would then spiral outwards to create all sorts of other problems for the outer planes, while at the same time who knows what would happen with the sudden void of power in the inner planes (for one thing, now you have a lot of orphaned quasi- and para-elemental planes).

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Instead of destroning it (nice goal, but very very very hard to do without being a deity) you coul try to remove its influence from the material plane.
    Take inspiration form Eberron's history: in the long war with Dal quor, homeplane of the Quori race, Giant discovered a powerful spell and destroyed the connection between Dal Quor and the material plane.
    Your character could work on a similar idea, maybe searching for that event in ancient libraries and suggestin to yoyr DM a travel to Xen'drik (the continent home of the ancient giants in Eberron) to find how to recreate the spell that was used to nearly destroy Dal Quor and part it from Eberron.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    How exactly do you mean 'destroy'? Does the plane need to actually no longer exist? Or would poisoning the water so nothing can live there, or maybe boiling it or something work?

    There are no ways that I know of to destroy an infinite plane which are strictly within the rules. However, if you have a sympathetic DM, you can probably come up with something.

    For example, you could try using True Creation to create a black hole to swallow the elemental plane of water. The spell reads:

    The caster creates a nonmagical, unattended object of any sort of matter. Items created are permanent and cannot be negated by dispelling magics or negating powers. For all intents and purposes, these items are completely real. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. The caster must succeed at an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.
    A black hole is non-magical, it is unattended, and it is made of matter. The only limit on what the spell can create is volume, no limits on mass or density. So create something dense enough at the maximum volume the spell allows and then let it collapse into a singularity. The only problem you might run into is making the skill check to make a complex item, but there's probably a way around that. This is completely within RAW, but probably breaks RAI pretty badly. And if your DM allows this to work, you can actually create a bunch of these to make it go faster.

    Another option would be to see if you can talk your DM into letting you use the Antigenesis version of the psionic power genesis on the plane of water rather than the material plane. It's not RAW, but it's not that much of a stretch either. Your two biggest issues there are going to be that it grows extremely slowly (1 foot per day) and maxes out at 1 foot per manifester level. If you could find a way to make it grow faster, and remove the size cap, that could maybe work.

    Another option would be to somehow create an enormous gate or rift between the elemental plane of water and the elemental plane of fire. It wouldn't really destroy all the water, but it would boil it away.

    That's all I can think of at the moment, but if I come up with something else I'll post it.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Not actually possible but fiat away

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    Destroying an outer plane, even an infinite one, is something you could do by altering the alignment of each of its layers (which can be done by a finite number of individuals, interestingly enough - the same way that the Harmonium caused a layer of Arcadia to fall to Mechanus). For an inner plane though, they tend to be much more 'substance-based' rather than 'belief-based' so you're going to be tangling directly with those infinities.
    Even causing all the current layers to slide elsewhere wouldn't destroy the plane, because the plane itself remains and a new layer would just form, either spontaneously and immediately, or eventually.

    An outer plane might, theoretically, be destroyed if you could get every creature in the multiverse to completely deny or denounce that alignment such that there is, for instance, no more Lawful Evil thought anywhere in the multiverse. With no more Lawful Evil thought, Baator ceases to exist.

    As far as destroying the plane of water? Nope, impossible, as others have said, closest possible (and only remotely, at that) thing would be what others have said about disconnecting it from your crystal sphere.

    What effects this would have on reality, though.....
    Last edited by Mnemnosyne; 2013-11-11 at 07:45 AM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Or, you know, accept that your character is a dangerously delusional madman who is doomed to never succeed. It's not like that makes the character any less interesting; exactly the opposite, in fact.

    Also, the DM not allowing a mortal to destroy one of the six basic building blocks of the universe isn't a DM being broken, that's a DM who's invested in maintaining even a hint of verisimilitude.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Allowing him to destroy a fundamental building block of reality is something that is fine for a DM to prevent.

    Allowing him to TRY? If the dm tries to stop that, then all hope is lost.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Though I can see n plyable way of doing so, here are a few ideas to kick around.

    1. Conjure a portal to this universe and have obsene amounts of jello thrown into the portal transforming it to a jello plane, not to be confused with the jelly plane as Bill Cosby frowns upon this. Next add a portal to the plane of starving children, ie they eat said jello universe destroyed.

    2. Opem a gate to the plane of steam and allow the water plane to feed into it and make it super charged, also may be able to add lots of instant mashed potatoes and gravy, after all holidays are right around the corner and who doesnt like mashed potatoes and gravy.

    3. Find large amounts of sponges to enlarge to colossal size to absorb the plane and add some cleaner too it and create the elemental plane of windex.
    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, as you are crunchy and good with hot sauce.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    You have a couple of options.

    1. Destroy the Elemental Plane of Water.
    2. Destroy the Astral Plane.
    3. Destroy the Material Plane.
    4. Destroy all portal links in the Elemental Plane of Water.
    5. Destroy all portal links on the material plane.
    6. Destroy the multiverse.

    Options 1, 2, 3 and 6 absolutely remove influence. Options 4 and 5 may or may not since while you destroy permanent portals and permits the construction of new portals.
    Last edited by Talderas; 2013-11-11 at 08:30 AM.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Yeah there's not going to be a RAW way to do this. Not without a LOT of cheese.

    Throwing some more cheese out there: build an epic diplomancer and find a deity who is somehow unable to resist your charms to do your dirty work for you.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stux View Post
    Yeah there's not going to be a RAW way to do this. Not without a LOT of cheese.

    Throwing some more cheese out there: build an epic diplomancer and find a deity who is somehow unable to resist your charms to do your dirty work for you.
    Why epic? Level 10 would work
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    I will have to do some research to find the source but, I do recall a d20 spell compenddium with a 10th level spell called create plane. It has a 120 million gp cost, 700k exp cost and a casting time of 1000 years. In the description it said that the spell is reversable ie a destroy plane spell. Sadly enough it is a non homebrewed spell, and d20 approved.
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Self resetting trap making Self resetting traps of Transmute Water to Cheese (which it then also teleports to a random location on the plane) should do it, in an infinite amount of time. This is only a polynomial (quadratic) progression.

    Finding some way of merging the Elemental Planes of Water and Fire is also a traditional approach.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ortesk View Post
    Why epic? Level 10 would work
    I meant epic in the more colloquial sense, should have been clearer really! Though you do still have to get to the god haha.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    I'm surprised by the large number of people saying "Nope, can't be done," and dusting off their hands. It's a fantasy roleplaying game, anything is possible with sufficient power and planning. Unless the DM says it's not, of course.

    Assuming your DM doesn't give you a flat no, and given a fairly standard D&D cosmology, I would say that it be a feat requiring some pretty epic, god-level alchemy and probably some major interplanar wars. Basically, you need to redraft the alchemical blueprint of the multiverse.

    At the moment Water holds a polar position opposite Fire and between Air and Earth, keeping everything balanced and checked. If you wanted to keep the basic four-element structure of the multiverse, you'd have to replace water with some other element. An obvious choice might be Oil, but that's less an opposite of Fire than it is fuel... Maybe Mercury. Once you got started on the epic magicks required to realign the multiverse, you'd probably have a lot of very angry Water Gods and marids and whatnot trying to mess you up, so then we get into the aforementioned interplanar wars as the denizens of the new Plane of Mercury protect you from the ravaging hordes of water.

    Alternatively (and this is my favorite of the ideas I've had so far), do what you need to do to have the elements of Ice and Ooze squeeze Water out and make a new five-element system (maybe aligned like MtG, with two opposed elements each: Air vs. Earth & Ooze; Ice vs. Fire & Earth; Ooze vs. Air & Fire; Earth vs. Ice & Air; Fire vs. Ice & Ooze). That way you don't have to make a whole new plane with denizens to fight for you, you just need to convince the denizens of the existing demielemental planes that they're better off getting rid of water and becoming their own thing. Plus epic magicks, of course. In the old days, of course, you could have utilized the quasielemental planes of Steam and Salt, but they're gone now.

    It may be possible just to axe water and continue on with a three-element system, but that would be tricky because then you'd be on your own against all the gods and elementals who are worried about losing their home and their power (and really, their existence).

    In any case, it must also be recognized that whatever option you take would have some pretty major effects on the nature of reality as well, not least the destruction of thousands of species. Life itself may become more or less unrecognizable as humans have to transform to accommodate having mercury or ooze running through their veins. Cool beans for a sand dragon, a real bummer for a jellyfish.

    And of course any DM would be well within her rights to say that it's either impossible within the cosmology or just way outside the scope or power level of the campaign. But if it were going to happen, that's how I think it would look.
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Well, it's infinitely large in 3+ dimensions. You are not going to do it with classic methods. If your DM doesn't throw you a plot token, I don't see how. It would be easier to separate your home planet.
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Find a way to construct a new Vast Gate, but on the elemental plane of water (or find the original, take it there, and turn it on). After it's activation, the plane itself becomes corrupted by the far-realm, and certainly water will pour out of the great wheel. Even if the gate is shut off, which every effort may be made to and every effort should be made to prevent, cerebotic blots could begin to appear on the plane itself, corrupting it further for you.

    Once it is warped enough, perhaps the great wheel will begin to treat the plane of water as a cyst, blocking it off from the rest of the wheel or even removing it from itself entirely as it is digested and further warped by the madness that lies beyond. In time, the plane itself may no longer be recognizable, perhaps growing to become more like the far-realm's Amoebic Sea. If it remains where it is, maybe you will wind up with something like an Elemental Plane of Protoplasm.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitbix View Post
    Is destroying a plane impossible?
    Hardly, you just need a strong enough explosive to depressurize it at high altitude.

    Oh, we're not talking about aircraft? Huh.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stux View Post
    I meant epic in the more colloquial sense, should have been clearer really! Though you do still have to get to the god haha.
    By level 10, not an issue. By then you can get people helpful on a whim. Then just ask to borrow the +30 diplomacy items for your important quest. By RAW, there do it. Within 3 people, its auto fanatics. Get all the bonuses the dms guide allows. Should put you around 4-500. Then talk a cleric into taking you to his god, the god into taking you to the over diety, the over diety into destroying water, and also stop twilight from being a thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackjackg View Post
    you'd be on your own against all the gods and elementals who are worried about losing their home and their power (and really, their existence).
    A very good point. Any deity with a vested interest in the plane of water and with water in their portfolio will be aware of what you are doing and will try to stop it. You better be prepared to fight some gods!

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    You hate water. How do you feel about steam?
    Although not exactly destroying the plane of water; an option could be to raise the temperature of the entire material plane to above 100 degrees. This should evaporate all that nasty water (and potentially lay waste to everything build on top of underground water reservoirs, as the steam rapidly expands)

    I think cutting the connection between the planes, or in some other way removing all water from the material plane is more realistic less unrealistic
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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Find a way to connect the plane of water to the plane of cement mix and cheese it to make a near infinite number of portals. The plane still exists, but its no longer water, its cement. Thats just one silly example of ways to combine two planes so they obliterate each other. Find a way to slam the plane of fire into it and its no longer the plane of water, its the plane of perpetual steam. Open an exit portal (or many billions of portals) to the plane of air and allow the plane of steam to disperse.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Is destroying a plane impossible?

    Wow..

    Thank you all for your quick and thoughtful responses.

    To those of you who have claimed at its impossibility, I fully understand the....Complications of this request, and My character is fully aware at the close to or rather most likely reality that this task is impossible. So far he (in campaign) has only been ridiculed.

    I have weighed the options presented to me thus far and like the idea of simply blocking all connections to the plane of water. It solves my goal, and Doesn't involve unbalancing the universe.

    Poisoning the water only works if its ALL the water and it stays poisoned.

    OH, And i fully hope my Dm does try to stop me in game. but not at the TRY level.

    Wow... more updates while i typed this up. I'll keep reading. Any more ideas are still appreciated

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