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2013-11-19, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Oh I forgot to mention that I posted the fixed up Child of Night prestige class. I was going to wait until I figured out how to do Metashadow but now I'm not really sure what approach to take.
The ideas so far:
-Leave it unchanged, functioning as a 1/day thing that can be increased by piling on more metashadow feats.
-Sacrifice an additional mystery of a level equal to the adjustment of the metashadow feat. Total of original mystery level and the adjustment cannot exceed highest spell level available to the shadowcaster.
-A sort of "overdraw" feature, fluffed around the idea of using so much shadow energy in a short period of time that it temporarily weakens their ability to amass more. Mechanically lose the ability to cast mysteries for a short time after using the metashadow, something along the lines of 1 round per adjusted level or something.
-Have this function as normal metamagic, where instead of expending a use of the modified mystery, instead expend a use of a mystery equal to the total adjusted level. This does pose the issue of being abused as a means of converting uses of other mysteries into one mystery, potentially being able to use one mystery far more times than intended.
Improved action economy might make up for some of the power level, I'll take that into consideration.
Black Fire is supposed to be 1d6+CHA per level, but yeah that's overpowered in retrospect.
Exhale of the Night: Fair enough, do you think there should only be one pair available or just combine the two level 2 spell effects?
Killing Shadows: Good point.
Life Fades: Nonlethal damage earns more leniency, but I did reduce the bonus damage to half of the charisma modifier per level. If it is that much more of an issue than I thought then I'll change it.
Mesmerizing Shade: Limited AoE, technically, since targets scale by caster level and are capped by caster's charisma mod. Though if it does seem too much like a win-the-encounter mystery then I'll shuffle it around.
Encroaching Shadows: Where? I might still be tired but I can't find it.
Ephemeral Storm: That's what I get for not looking up a spell that's "obviously necromancy". I'll change that back.
Life Vanishes: Does no CHA bonus on regular damage and only half CHA on nonlethal damage sound better, or should it be completely off the table?
Chilling Darkness: Fair enough, clearly I was struggling with the numbers side of this toward the end of formatting. I'll see about making that work better.
Indiscriminate Dark: "You say you have no strength, foolish wraith? Then what did I just drain, huh? HUH?" Ok yeah that's stupid I'll fix it.
Overall critique: In retrospect of balance issues, I guess backing off a bit and making it waver between tier 3 and 2 is better than 2 and 1. Thanks for your evaluation.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2013-11-19, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
My apologies for not linking to the Truenaming overhaul earlier! They also made a massive, well-done PDF for those that like them. Enjoy!
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2013-11-20, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
4th option is out since supernatural abilities have no levels. You could make it work but needs additional wording and care.
My suggestion would be a "per encounter" logic, but not letting them take the feat more than once to stack uses. However should you prefer the 1/day mechanic, my suggestion would be to tack an additional, passive benefit, related to the metashadow (extra durations, extra range etc.).
Answer spoilered as not to derail thread
Spoiler
While it is too early for it, why don't you ask the OP for general guidelines / thought patterns in order to use them yourself on your table?
DoS is exceptional but has problems (example: 3rd level mystery summoning a cr 12 critter), problems that no homebrewer should be forced to consider if he chooses not to. Datamining it for ideas is another matter entirely.
From Enroaching Shadows first sentence in the description of the mystery.
The you draw the power of the Plane of Shadow and make it surround and eclipse a personLast edited by peacenlove; 2013-11-20 at 03:18 AM.
Complete Shadow Magic! for Pathfinder Rules. (Google Docs PDF)
Newest: Shadowcaster Archetypes
WIP:Wordcasting Shadowcaster
Previous games: Life in Hell
as Moira
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2013-11-25, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
The new Master of Shadow prestige class is now added.
Also made some changes changes:
Added disguise to class skills.
Mysteries becoming supernatural abilities now has clarification regarding spell level and DCs.
Exhale of the Night is changed to be a Gust of Wind and Shatter combination.
Black Fire's charisma bonus to damage is no longer per-level.
Added charisma modifier to the damage of Killing Shadows, but not scaled per-level.
Ephemeral Storm changed to Evocation.
Indiscriminate Dark has clarified wording regarding nonabilities.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2013-11-26, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
After a very brief look at the prestige classes (I'll say more this evening), I have a few points. You never say how the Master of Shadow's familiar is replaced. There is no 1st party shadow elemental monolith, so could you link to a homebrew that contains it or make one yourself. As not everyone (e.g. me) has Lords of Madness, could you state what the Shadow Blend ability does in the Child of Night's description. Finally, both these classes seem quite powerful for just losing a single level of mystery-using.
Rules for Luck
A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
Gestalt theurgy
When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
Spoiler: QuotesOriginally Posted by RolepOriginally Posted by anonymous
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2013-11-26, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadowMastiff.htm
A more SRD friendly version of Shadow Blend.
Also the shadow monolith is on the works
Complete Shadow Magic! for Pathfinder Rules. (Google Docs PDF)
Newest: Shadowcaster Archetypes
WIP:Wordcasting Shadowcaster
Previous games: Life in Hell
as Moira
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2013-11-26, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
The original wording for replacing the servant was vague, though it should be specified. I'll give it something that's not worth doing in the middle of a fight. Shadow Elemental Monolith will be statted out once I put up the updated Shadow Elementals, which I will try to get into the next update. The power level is a bit of a concern, but unlike with regular caster prestige class issues there is the fact that some or all of the base Shadowcaster's class feature progression is sacrificed for this. I'll definitely be tweaking these in the future.
Thank you, I'll just link that whenever Shadow Blend is referenced.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2013-11-26, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Honestly, looking through your PrCs, their isn't much more to say that what has already passed my
lipsfingertips. But here is the rest.
Child of Night
- The Spells/Mysteries sections should include the clause about not gaining any other class feature that other PrCs have.
- Just for the sake of tidiness, the Sustaining Shadows feature should be reprinted in full, rather than just directing the reader to the shadowcaster proper.
- I'm torn about dropping an extra caster level, since the stealth/defence abilities are easy enough for a spellcaster to replicate, but a mystery-user would find this class a real benefit. But definitely don't drop more than one.
Master of Shadows
- d8 HD seems a little un-spellcaster-y.
- A familiar that cannot travel far from you is weird, especially considering the roles of a familiar as a scout and a target to form the front line while the mage hides a long way back. Also, the bigsby's hand spells and the like could easily kill the familiar.
- A like shadow commander, but it's really powerful (a CR16/17 summons at level 15). I'd lose a second caster level at 10th, to balance this out. I'm wavering on the edge of taking a third off at some point, but that could underpower the class.
As a final note, I wouldn't consider the shadowcaster's extra abilities as worth considering regarding the sacrifice that PrCs entail, as they are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.Rules for Luck
A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
Gestalt theurgy
When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
Spoiler: QuotesOriginally Posted by RolepOriginally Posted by anonymous
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2013-11-26, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
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2013-11-26, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Originally Posted by ~Corvus~Rules for Luck
A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
Gestalt theurgy
When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
Spoiler: QuotesOriginally Posted by RolepOriginally Posted by anonymous
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2013-11-26, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
d8 is actually what the original version of that PrC gets, I just left it alone in the conversion. The suggestion to whack another caster level off of Master of Shadows does sound reasonable, though.
Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2013-12-10, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Big round of changes, I'm bothered too much by the power of a lot of this and I do want this in a state where I feel comfortable allowing it. Some nerfing is going around along with some clarifications.
Shadowcaster:
Base attack bonus changed to 1/2 HD.
Mysteries:
Summon Umbral Servant/Army of Shadow: Reduced summoned amount of creatures, instead changing duration to two rounds per level.
Grasping Shadow: Cold damage inflicted is now only 1/2CHAd6 instead of CHAd6.
Chilling Darkness: Clarified wording with cold resistance/immunity bypass and redid the math to make sure that cold immunity is still better than resistance.
Prestige Classes:
Child of Night: Shadow Blend is now linked to the Shadow Mastiff's SRD entry for easier reference.
Master of Shadow: Removed casting progression at 10th level.
Feats:
Added Reposed Shadowcaster, giving the option of replacing one of the necessary ability scores for shadow magic with Wisdom.
Monsters:
Revision for Shadow Elementals is posted.
Shadow Elemental Monolith added.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2013-12-10, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
I thoroughly approve.
Shadowcaster:
Base attack bonus changed to 1/2 HD.
Mysteries:
Summon Umbral Servant/Army of Shadow: Reduced summoned amount of creatures, instead changing duration to two rounds per level.
Grasping Shadow: Cold damage inflicted is now only 1/2CHAd6 instead of CHAd6.
Chilling Darkness: Clarified wording with cold resistance/immunity bypass and redid the math to make sure that cold immunity is still better than resistance.
Prestige Classes:
Child of Night: Shadow Blend is now linked to the Shadow Mastiff's SRD entry for easier reference.
Master of Shadow: Removed casting progression at 10th level.
Feats:
Added Reposed Shadowcaster, giving the option of replacing one of the necessary ability scores for shadow magic with Wisdom.(which I still say it should be in the first place). I'm worried that everyone might take it if this were true, but it gives the feat more of a 'divine shadowcaster' feel.
Monsters:
Revision for Shadow Elementals is posted.
Shadow Elemental Monolith added.Rules for Luck
A (failed) Shadowcaster fix
The Sangolu: mixing D&D's greatest foes
Gestalt theurgy
When referring to Vaarsuvius, I (try to) use they/them/their/theirs/themself. Just my preference.
Spoiler: QuotesOriginally Posted by RolepOriginally Posted by anonymous
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2013-12-10, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Hey there. Author of DoS here and I wanted to apologize for any grief my work may have been causing you here.
Making the DoS, it was my belief that any magic system with workable mechanics could be made viable through the addition of new material. Unlike truenaming, which had serious problems right at the core of the system, I figured that shadowcasters could be used but needed some serious options.
With that said, my efforts to make shadow magic viable doesn't mean that shadow magic itself was flawless by any stretch of the imagination and I quite like the direction that you've taken with this work. I can tell that you have put considerable effort into this project and it definitely gets by on its own merits.
As has been suggested, though, I also believe that any caster class gets more viable as more spells or options are introduced. You are welcome to look through DoS and poach any mysteries or paths that look good (if you need any help on enigmas, I came up with a similar idea in the form of "path mastery feats" so feel free to check those).I'm try not to be too vain but this was too perfect not to sig.
At long last, I have an extended signature
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2013-12-10, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Nitpics:
Reposed Shadowcaster special line is unnecessary since a general rule exists about how many times you can take feats (1 unless specified)
Shadow Elemental: the restriction about the "light" function of black candle is not mechanical, i.e. I can dominate one and utilize this effect, right?
It's good as it is because wisdom has the hidden benefit of increasing the potency of your passive abilities (Spot, Listen, Sense motive, Will saves), enabling you for Shadow Weave Magic, a good feat which leads to a good 1 level dip, while charisma enhances only your active abilities (Intimidate, UMD).
Mystery number is not a pressing matter in this revision since they are natively more numerous and more potent.
Shadow Master:
At 20th level, your connection with the Plane of Shadows intensifies, fully atttuning you to shadow magic. Your initiate mysteries become usable as supernatural abilities, your master abilities as spell-like abilities, and your fundamentals can be cast as a move action.Last edited by peacenlove; 2013-12-10 at 05:06 PM.
Complete Shadow Magic! for Pathfinder Rules. (Google Docs PDF)
Newest: Shadowcaster Archetypes
WIP:Wordcasting Shadowcaster
Previous games: Life in Hell
as Moira
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2013-12-10, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Since the class being SAD is a pretty common demand I've seen around (often a custom request in game recruitment threads) I'll consider an ACF later on that merges both functions to one stat at the cost of some other aspect of the class.
Oh no problem at all, I don't hold it against you or your work for what happened, and it's good to have something diverse and viable out there for the system. I'll take a close look at DoS later on, since I plan to have a set of conversion rules to allow my fix to work with your additions in either of our directions.
Reposed Shadowcaster: I just felt like the clarification was needed since a natural first thought would be to have it be taken twice, especially since it's not uncommon for people to try to bypass unwritten restrictions through requested rulings. I may switch this over to an ACF the more I think about it, but I'll leave it as a feat for now.
Shadow Elemental: It's only mechanical so much as you'll probably never see one use the light function when encountered naturally, but one that's summoned or controlled through other means can definitely be used that way.
Shadow Master suggestion: Hm, I guess I could shuffle around what is in the capstone. Next update is going to rework fundamentals pretty heavily though, so Endless Fundamentals won't be considered in this shuffle.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2013-12-11, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
I've recently been experimenting with theories involving multiple shadow classes, and wanted to try out the Shadowcaster, but it just seemed to weak. After reading through this (and a little bit of DoS) I have to say; I'm insanely impressed with this work. I revere this work and your writing/creativity with it. Definitely subscribed, and after you get it to a point you're comfortable with it, I will HAPPILY playtest it for you.
Spoiler: CharactersShenra: Human Wu Jen(3.5)Awesome Avatar by gurgleflep!
Weekends will be difficult for me to post.
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2013-12-24, 05:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
New update in, mainly changing the fundamentals to a state where I feel comfortable allowing the fix now.
Fundamentals:
-Fundamentals are now usable as a move action unless specified as faster.
-The choice between upgrading a fundamental and choosing a new one is gone, you get both!
-Tweaked the existing fundamentals in various ways that I can't entirely list or document, and added five new fundamentals adapted from Descent of Shadows (Thanks to Realms for giving me permission for conversion).
Shadowcaster:
-Capstone modified so the character no longer ages. Removed bit about changing fundamental action economy as it's moot in the overhaul.
Equipment:
-Added antichrome material. Yes you can also have an antichroming process on other materials for cosmetic effect if you think they can handle being that cool.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2014-01-23, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Some changes:
Afraid of the Dark: Wisdom damage is negated on a save, instead having the penalty to saves against fear be the partial effect.
Shadow Storm: Removed the daze effect.
Strike with the Shadows: Reduced distance scaling on bonus damage to roughly a quarter of its original and removed clause about charging.
Put in a note about Noctumancer in the prestige class section since I don't see that needing any changes.
Struggling to get the last two original prestige classes in a state I want them to be in. I may focus on other content before then.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2014-11-09, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Just giving an update to those who have been paying attention to this homebrew. I won't be doing any more work on this for a number of reason, which I will explain.
I've been readying myself to get right into 5e, which has had my attention too much for me to want to linger in 3.5 mechanics for too long. Adding on top of that my continued frustration for the mechanics of this homebrew becoming more and more unsatisfactory for me as time goes on. It's still awkward and feels a bit forced, bringing into question whether the theme of Shadow really needed its own semi-distinct casting mechanic, and I still struggle to see how this will properly work as a class that doesn't have the same struggles brought on by fundamentals and mystery choices. Given 5e's subclass system I may reapproach this matter with Plane of Shadow themed subclasses later on, but it won't be in the near future.
I know there's still some wrinkles and incomplete material, and if anyone is really keen on still making use of this then I'll consider a final pass with the balancing iron before I move on. Apologies to those who were waiting for more stuff from this.Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2015-08-21, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
I've added an Epic Progression and have cleaned up some differences between the short and full descriptions of the Fundamentals.
Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2015-08-21, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- Where I live.
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Just because I wanted to:
Using Descent of Shadows with this Shadowcaster:
Feats
All of the Path Mastery feats become Enigmas - their prerequisites do not otherwise change. If this would result in multiple Enigmas for a given Path, select one of them; if you want an additional pick, you may take it instead of a feat.
Otherwise, no changes.
ACFs
Ebon Sage: Simply change the levels modified; otherwise, nothing is changed.
Escalating Shadows: Remove it. Laugh, for it is unnecessary.
Haunted: No change.
Logical Mystery: This ACF only removes one of the Mysteries gained at the indicated levels.
Shadow Annul: There are still not changes necessary. I see Noctumancer in your future.
Tainted Shadowcaster: Do I have to say it? No. Change. Necessary.
Substitution Levels
Gnome Shadowcaster:
• Fundamental Mastery gives you a daily spell-like usage of each Fundamental you know (more of a clarification than anything else.)
• The 3rd Gnome Shadowcaster substitution level is taken at 2nd level, and replaces the Umbral Sight abilities gained at 2nd and 6th levels; you get those abilities at 12th and 17th level instead, replacing the Umbral Sight benefits you would normally get at those levels.
• Finally, the substitution level that would normally be taken at 14th level is moved to 18th level.
Shadowswyft Shadowcaster:
• The 1st Substitution level is unchanged.
• The 2nd Substitution level is moved to 5th level. Instead of giving you a Fundamental in place of bonus feats from extra Paths, you retroactively learn an additional Fundamental whenever you complete a Path.
• The 4th Substitution level is moved to 3rd level; the AC bonus improves by one every two levels thereafter, rather than every four levels thereafter.
Drow Shadowcaster:
• The 1st Substitution level is unchanged.
• The 3rd Substitution level is moved to 2nd level.
• The 11th Substitution level is moved to 6th level.
Shadar-Kai Shadowcaster:
• The 1st Substitution level is unchanged.
• The 4th Substitution level is moved to 3rd level; you get +1d6 every two levels thereafter, rather than every four levels thereafter.
• The 14th Substitution level is moved to 18th level.
Fundamentals:
I am too lazy to update them; just consider them all to be Minor Fundamentals with no improvements (other that ones that already have one, like Unbidden Strike).
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2015-08-21, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
I like that, Amechra. I'll take a closer look at it later and link the post in the main content once it checks out. I may tack on some fundamental buffs since all of the minor versions seem to be slightly weaker than Descent of Shadow's baseline.
Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2015-08-22, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Shadow Guidance and Contagious Shadow altered to be less broken, with less initial bonuses and a larger range on the Contagious Shadow upgrade.
Homebrew list. Latest Homebrew: Deep Cold, Expanded Frostfell temperature Bands.
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2015-08-23, 04:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The darkness is eternal . . . and now so am I. Shadow Magic that seizes the night
Some background on Strategical / Tactical terminology:
- Strategic flexibility is the ability to change your resource allocation before combat. Wizards and Binders and Totemists can do this.
- Tactical flexibility is the ability to freely allocate your resources in combat. Sorcerers and Totemists can do this.
- Attrition immunity is the ability to hit hard in a way that doesn't cost you any limited resource, and doesn't usually expose you to more danger than you can easily heal yourself. Warlocks and casters with [Reserve] feats can do this.
Shadowcasters have none of these. They can't change their spell selection like a Wizard; they can't freely spend charges between their (fixed) abilities like a Sorcerer; they can't cast all day like a Warlock. They have the worst of all worlds, and this is a fundamental flaw which you've kept.
Equipment
- Sorcerers buy gear strategically, since they have tactical flexibility covered by their class features.
- Wizards buy (or create) gear which they must use tactically, since they lack tactical flexibility. They have more options for gear creation since they might need more gear-provided options in combat.
- Warlocks suffer from both of these issues, but they have class features to allow them to reliably use any type of gear in combat, and eventually get a class feature to make (or collaborate to make) any type of item.
Shadowcasters get none of these. Their "spell list" isn't made of spells, so they don't interact with the spell-trigger item system. Not only do they lack common class-booster items (pearl of power, metamagic rods, etc.), they lack the ability to strategically buy or create items which give them more options.
Their Spell/Spell-like/Supernatural transition is supposed to reward them in some way, like maybe so they can wear armor, but it doesn't actually work out because their best Mysteries are always going to work like spells, at least until it's level 20 and the game is basically done.
The Sp/Su thing also limits possible effects to things which don't have an expensive component and don't have an XP cost, so that's implicitly shafting the Shadowcaster's utility palette. Or if you do let expensive M/XP components get ignored by (Su) pretend-spells, then you're opening up the door to the sort of abuse that made Dweomerkeeper famous.
Honestly, I can't see a way to make the class work without throwing out basically all the original mechanics -- except the fluff about not eating (etc.), that's cool and can stay.I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.