Tactical Question - Haley

[Lombard]

I got the reference. Doesn't change the fact that a) Laurin has shown no sign of flying and b) the OP went beyond quoting Haley to throw in additional gender-based, slut-shaming insults. Seriously, am I the only person who thinks "Is she a skank or a MILF?" belongs on some frat-boy Maxim forums, not here?

I see a lot of dudes telling me I overreacted. I don't see a lot of women contributing to this thread.

"MILF" is eye of the beholder and so doesn't really have a thing to say about the character of the person you're giving the term to. "Skank" and "tramp" on the other hand does speak to that character, so as far as some female about whose sex life we know little, the latter two examples are probably more misogynistic than the former, the former nevertheless I suppose being potentially offensive to those who are especially sensitive to objectification issues even if it's meant as a compliment in its way.

So, while I get where you're coming from, I don't think the OP was being really malicious, which is not to say that you're not entitled to your offended feelings if the post pushed your buttons. Just seemed like his goal was more to make a comic-centered joke with a side of "catfight lol" than a misogynistic joke with a side of comic. So probably (IMO) just something about which to speak your piece if you feel it needs to be spoken, and not really worth going down a multi-post road with it.

[Haldir]

In all likelyhood Laurin is thinking about sex just as much as our controversial OP, she just has a different way of expressing it. Calling any of those expressions right or wrong is sexist itself.

If you don't think men are objectified just as much as women then you are ignoring a great deal of evidence. Are the social methods of that objectification different? Hell yes they are. Is one inherently right and the other inherently wrong? Good luck arguing that.

[GrayGriffin]

In all likelyhood Laurin is thinking about sex just as much as our controversial OP, she just has a different way of expressing it. Calling any of those expressions right or wrong is sexist itself.

If you don't think men are objectified just as much as women then you are ignoring a great deal of evidence. Are the social methods of that objectification different? Hell yes they are. Is one inherently right and the other inherently wrong? Good luck arguing that.

Does the objectification of men make them scared about being too close to the type of women who produce media with objectified men? I somehow don't think so. Admittedly, this is a simplification. Someone else can probably explain it better than me.

[jere7my]

If you don't think men are objectified just as much as women then you are ignoring a great deal of evidence. Are the social methods of that objectification different? Hell yes they are. Is one inherently right and the other inherently wrong? Good luck arguing that.

I don't want to turn this into Intro to Sexism 101, but yes, men are also objectified. It's much more likely, though, for women to be objectified in a way that reduces them to their sexual characteristics, even if they're just doing some unrelated job (like, say, mind blasting a party of adventurers). A male scientist might be sexy, but people who see him still see a scientist; a female scientist is more likely to be perceived as a sexy woman who's wearing a lab coat for some reason.

Objectification happens to everyone, but since we do still live in a male-dominated society it disproportionately affects women. Reducing a non-sexualized female character to "skank or MILF?" reinforces that narrative, and may make this forum an uncomfortable place for female fans to hang out.

Here's a thought experiment to demonstrate the lack of symmetry here: we have two sex-shaming terms for women in this thread, "skank" and "tramp". Can you think of two similar sex-shaming terms for men? I wasn't able to; the two I came up with ("stud" and "boytoy") don't have anything like the same negative connotations.

[GrayGriffin]

I don't want to turn this into Intro to Sexism 101, but yes, men are also objectified. It's much more likely, though, for women to be objectified in a way that reduces them to their sexual characteristics, even if they're just doing some unrelated job (like, say, mind blasting a party of adventurers). A male scientist might be sexy, but people who see him still see a scientist; a female scientist is more likely to be perceived as a sexy woman who's wearing a lab coat for some reason.

Objectification happens to everyone, but since we do still live in a male-dominated society it disproportionately affects women. Reducing a non-sexualized female character to "skank or MILF?" reinforces that narrative, and may make this forum an uncomfortable place for female fans to hang out.

Here's a thought experiment to demonstrate the lack of symmetry here: we have two sex-shaming terms for women in this thread, "skank" and "tramp". Can you think of two similar sex-shaming terms for men? I wasn't able to; the two I came up with ("stud" and "boytoy") don't have anything like the same negative connotations.

Thanks for that. The only terms I can think of are basically putting "man" in front of a female-oriented sex-shaming term. And even then there's still a bit of positive connotation somehow.

[Porthos]

Here's a thought experiment to demonstrate the lack of symmetry here: we have two sex-shaming terms for women in this thread, "skank" and "tramp". Can you think of two similar sex-shaming terms for men? I wasn't able to; the two I came up with ("stud" and "boytoy") don't have anything like the same negative connotations.

"rent/pool boy" is the only one that comes to mind. The other one that comes to mind ("himbo") is still a play on a term that mostly deingrates women.

The thing is, yes, some men are objectified in media. Usually in power/strength stereotypes (if you are not powerful/strong/whatever you aren't a real man et etc). Jim C. Hines has been doing sterling work on this just by pointing out the differences between stereotypical covers that objectifies women versus ones that objectifies men. Hilariously, I might add.

Both are bad. Both harm real people. Both contribute negatively to society.

Both do not remotely to contribute negatively to society equally. Not even close.

[Euclidodese]

I always found Haley's use of insults slightly odd.
Not unrealistic... Just, if you can choose what a character says... Why choose those words?

Personally I would have called her pseudo-peado adversary a [BLANK]-nosed, [BLANK]-featured [BLANK]-opotamus... But that's a stylistic choice.


But seriously... Your rage is with Rich, not with the OP.
And we got your disapproval and humourlessness from your first contribution, there's nothing else you really need to add.

[NerdyKris]

I always found Haley's use of insults slightly odd.
Not unrealistic... Just, if you can choose what a character says... Why choose those words?

Personally I would have had her pseudo-peado adversary a [BLANK]-nosed, [BLANK]-featured [BLANK]-opotamus... But that's a personal choice.


But seriously... Your rage is with Rich, not with the OP.
And we got your disapproval and humourlessness from your first contribution, there's nothing else you really need to add.

Because Haley is not a great person. She's emotionally screwed up. Notice her initial hatred of Sabine was because Sabine was outwardly dating Nale, and she was repressing her feelings for Elan. She calls Samantha a skank because she was about to have sex with the guy she liked. Choosing different words wouldn't have made sense, because it's part of her character that she's repressed and is attacking those women's openness because she is jealous of it.

There is a far, FAR cry from a character using the term because it fits their character, and making jokes about it on the forum.

For a non sex related example, Xykon has murdered multiple people in cold blood for no reason. That doesn't mean you can come on the forum and start joking about murdering people. One is a character. The other is you, a real person.

[Cerussite]

Let's be fair here: there wasn't much fun to be removed from this one. "If Laurin starts flying, which we have no indication she'll do, which insulting sex-related term would we get to use for her? Haw haw!"

Deconstructing a joke with the sole intention if demeaning it doesn't make it any less funny in the first place. You've done nothing but show your complete lack of a sense of humor again, exemplifying my point.

There is a far, FAR cry from a character using the term because it fits their character, and making jokes about it on the forum.

For a non sex related example, Xykon has murdered multiple people in cold blood for no reason. That doesn't mean you can come on the forum and start joking about murdering people. One is a character. The other is you, a real person.

So making jokes about Xykon sacrificing minions would be reprehensible? I don't see it. This isn't about sex jokes. This is about how Haley commonly fights airborne ladies whom she characterizes as "tramps", and how Laurin could, due to her psionic powers, possibly become one such target for her, and how she might be characterized by Haley as a "tramp" thus. Turning it into a discussion about sexism is pointless derailing.

[Haldir]

I think many of us are choosing to ignore that "slut-shaming" is a tried and true pasttime for women just as much as it is for men. Convenient when your argument is that one type of sexism is alright but the other is not.

[Porthos]

Convenient when your argument is that one type of sexism is alright but the other is not.

Who has made that argument on this thread?

[GrayGriffin]

I think many of us are choosing to ignore that "slut-shaming" is a tried and true pasttime for women just as much as it is for men. Convenient when your argument is that one type of sexism is alright but the other is not.

You are also choosing to ignore a simple fact-in most cases, said "slut-shaming" is directed at women, no matter who is doing it.

[Haldir]

"Objectification happens to everyone, but since we do still live in a male-dominated society it disproportionately affects women. "


A historically questionable statement that supposes that society is dominated by the outer sphere, when in all actuality, to my learned eye, the family is the core unit of society. The outer sphere of society, really, being derived mostly from the needs of the family. In this sense, society is dominated by the collaborative effort at rearing children, which is the case I've been making this whole time.

[Euclidodese]

There is a far, FAR cry from a character using the term because it fits their character, and making jokes about it on the forum.

For a non sex related example, Xykon has murdered multiple people in cold blood for no reason. That doesn't mean you can come on the forum and start joking about murdering people. One is a character. The other is you, a real person.

Firstly the OP, while presumably themselves real is making the joke about a fictional person.

Also, the question being asked by the OP is: "Does/would Haley think the woman is a skank?"

Not in fact "Is she a skank?"

Making the question similar to: "Would Xykon murder Elan?"

Not "I want to murder Emily Deschanel."

[Porthos]

Turning it into a discussion about sexism is pointless derailing.

If you think posters are 'derailing' threads, report them.

Personally, the second I saw the OP I knew the thread was headed in this direction. Mostly because, unlike just about all of the other instances mentioned, there is nothing remotely sexual about the conflict between Haley and Laurin (Crystal being a special case of long long standing rivalry).

Now could the (in)famous "Sneak Attack, Bitch" make an appearance? Sure. But that's just Haley's anti-social nature coming through and nothing particularly sexual.

[johnbragg]

For a non sex related example, Xykon has murdered multiple people in cold blood for no reason. That doesn't mean you can come on the forum and start joking about murdering people. One is a character. The other is you, a real person.

Uh, I think we can and have joked about Xykon murdering people.

The OP joke was framed as a reference to Haley's habits and terminology. The OP even allowed for the option of Laurin's non-skankdom--just because she's attractive (MILF), doesn't mean she's to be denigrated (skank/airborne tramp.) The OP was talking about Haley's perception of and reaction to another female adventurer. Based on Haley's record of interactions with other female adventurers.

That said, this thread probably lost most of its value after the OP posted. Good 5-second joke, whose 5 seconds have long ended. So I exit the thread.

[Porthos]

"Objectification happens to everyone, but since we do still live in a male-dominated society it disproportionately affects women. "

You can, of course, disagree with the statement. But please don't put words in people's mouths by saying that the people saying it are saying it is 'alright' or acceptable.

Because, as far as I can see, no one has said remotely such a thing.

[Haldir]

Forgive me, then. You can take my "alright" not to mean it is acceptable in a literal sense, but rather to mean that one type of sexism is more damaging than another, and therefore should be fought more than the other. This is not a defensible position at all, in my opinion.

[Porthos]

but rather to mean that one type of sexism is more damaging than another, and therefore should be fought more than the other. This is not a defensible position at all, in my opinion.

Depends on how much one agrees with the concept of prioritization, I suppose.

The other counter to the point is that all sexism should be fought. But that since, in the opinion of many, there is much more sexism that negatively affects women, it is only natural that there will be more battles against that than the sexism that negatively affects men.

In other words, don't ignore the sexism that affects men. Just don't be surprised if more of the battles that are discussed are the ones that affect women, because of pure numbers.

I would also, as an aside, say that the notion (which I don't believe has been raised per se but it should still be addressed) that this is a zero-sum game where only 'one side' can be dealt with at any one time by society at large is a particularly silly one, IMO. But getting too deep into that stance is probably outside the scope of this board.

[Koo Rehtorb]

It was a bad joke. Insensitive jokes are only acceptable when they're really funny.

[Euclidodese]

Depends on how much one agrees with the concept of prioritization, I suppose.

There's prioritizing differently, and there's near-universally ignoring.

No one's fault of course.
It's just the obvious difficulty of trying to fight the ravages of a traditional gender norm when that norm largely centers around never admitting weakness or asking for help...

But, we're heading in the right direction as a society, as with women, however ponderously.
You can level a mountain with a shovel, so long as the mountain doesn't shovel back.
It's a Mao quote, but that doesn't stop it from being true.

[Nimin]

I got the reference. Doesn't change the fact that a) Laurin has shown no sign of flying and b) the OP went beyond quoting Haley to throw in additional gender-based, slut-shaming insults. Seriously, am I the only person who thinks "Is she a skank or a MILF?" belongs on some frat-boy Maxim forums, not here?

Personally I would say yes. At least speaking of myself. Nothing wrong to see.

[jere7my]

But seriously... Your rage is with Rich, not with the OP.

It is absolutely not. Rich put those words in the mouth of a fictional character; generally speaking, I have no problem with that, and I doubt he's used "tramp" or "skank" to describe any of his characters in his posts or commentaries. Likewise, I don't have a problem with writers who have their characters use racial slurs, but I would still go O_o if someone asked, about an unrelated character of the same race, "So what about X? Is he a {racial slur 1} or more of a lazy {racial slur 2}?"

And we got your disapproval and humourlessness from your first contribution, there's nothing else you really need to add.

"You have no sense of humor." Aw, shoot, I wish I'd brought my BINGO card.

Forgive me, then. You can take my "alright" not to mean it is acceptable in a literal sense, but rather to mean that one type of sexism is more damaging than another, and therefore should be fought more than the other. This is not a defensible position at all, in my opinion.

How about this: Next time it comes up with respect to a male character, poke me and we'll see if I think something should be said. I predict we'll be waiting a long time.

Deconstructing a joke with the sole intention if demeaning it doesn't make it any less funny in the first place. You've done nothing but show your complete lack of a sense of humor again, exemplifying my point.

It would take a better man than me to make that joke less funny.

I'll ask again: Does anyone think it would be appropriate to ask, in a mixed-gender group with women you don't know, "What do you think? Is she a skank or a MILF?" If you don't, why would it be appropriate here?

[Angel Bob]

The OP joke was a bit of a stretch to start with, given that there's nothing sexual about Laurin at all, and furthermore, Haley's "airborne tramp" running gag seems to have ended with Tsukiko. (Ironically enough, Haley has recently been flying around the battlefield herself; not sure how she feels about that.)

Personally, I think the discussion (call it a derailment if you must) that's sprung up since is of much more use to the forums than the initial joke. Although most Playgrounders are pretty affable folks who seem to have their heads screwed on straight, having a discussion about Serious Issues offers a chance for everyone involved to deepen their understanding of said Serious Issues. Thus, I congratulate jere7my for bringing about the discussion and continuing to be a courteous "host", if you will.

That said, there's a distressing lack of discernibly female commenters in this thread, which I find to be both odd and a bit of a shame. Although being a guy doesn't mean you can't talk about sexism, having some actual females here would give some much-needed perspective.

With regards to my own feelings on the subject: I'm personally sickened by the suggestion that Laurin is either a tramp or a MILF, both of which I find to be detestable words. I also applaud Kish's earlier post; keeping that in mind, I must insist that just because Haley slut-shames other female characters doesn't mean a male reader can slut-shame female characters, and to be frank, I'm quite alarmed as to how anyone made that leap of logic. The difference, of course, between Haley's slut-shaming and Xykon's murdering is that the former bleeds too close to the real world, whereas Xykon is so unrealistically evil as to be ridiculous. I think we can all agree, without naming names, that although some humans in history have arguably approached Xykon's calibre of nastiness, they've never done it with the same style. Thus, Xykon's murdering? Acceptable basis for jokes. Haley's slut-shaming? Best to leave that one alone if you're in polite company, ie. the Playground.

Well, that's my two cents. Hope it makes a difference.

[Euclidodese]

I'll ask again: Does anyone think it would be appropriate to ask, in a mixed-gender group with women you don't know, "What do you think? Is she a skank or a MILF?" If you don't, why would it be appropriate here?

As stated before, because it is a person suggesting as a joke that we, as a thought experiment guess the feelings of one fictional character about another.

If you can't see the difference between that and what you have suggested... I really don't know what to say.

[jere7my]

As stated before, because it is a person suggesting as a joke that we, as a thought experiment guess the feelings of one fictional character about another.

If you can't see the difference between that and what you have suggested... I really don't know what to say.

So your premise is that the OP was wondering whether Haley thought of Laurin as a MILF? Are you expecting Haley's latent bisexuality to play a larger story role?

[martianmister]

doesn't have Favoured Enemy (airborne tramp)...

Ironic because Laurin have Favoured Enemy (airborne tramp), and she's using it against Haley...

[AKA_Bait]

The catfolk gal, maybe - but she's elsweyr.

Jacinda objects to your implications of Jacinda's private behavior.

/my interest in contributing to this thread.

[GrayGriffin]

That said, there's a distressing lack of discernibly female commenters in this thread, which I find to be both odd and a bit of a shame. Although being a guy doesn't mean you can't talk about sexism, having some actual females here would give some much-needed perspective.

What am I, chopped liver?

[Euclidodese]

So your premise is that the OP was wondering whether Haley thought of Laurin as a MILF? Are you expecting Haley's latent bisexuality to play a larger story role?

Hehe, I can only pray that it never makes a return.
Too soap-opera-y.