Tactical Question - Haley

[AgentofHellfire]

When has the comic used the term MILF? I have some trouble seeing that term being used in a non-sexual context, given the meaning of the acronym. Tramp, at least, has some non-sexual, non-gendered definitions (e.g., Lady and the Tramp).

I know I said I wouldn't be back but I just couldn't help myself.

"Terms Haley uses to refer to women she dislikes", or "Haleyisms".

(She hasn't specifically used that term, but it's a subversion, so that's the point)

[The Giant]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the original "joke" in this thread was a stretch, considering the only thing she has in common with a "Airborne Tramp" is…nothing. No, literally—nothing. She has been depicted as neither flying nor sexually promiscuous, and those are the only two words in the original reference. The only thing she has in common with any of the characters Haley was referring to with the original joke was that she is female, which means that as far as the OP goes, being female is enough to prompt the mental association. That's not really OK.

Laurin is a female character probably in her late 50's who is covered from head to toe and has never discussed anything sexual at all. I made a deliberate effort to not sexualize her, even, since I realized a while ago that I was subconsciously "sexing up" almost all of the female characters. The fact that she still rates these kind of comments is very disappointing.

Regarding Haley's fairly persistent slut-shaming…all I can do is apologize for that. I have no excuse except my own shortcomings and lack of self-awareness. I could try to say that because of the environment that Haley was raised in (a literal criminal gang), she hasn't had the education or experience to not fall in line and perpetuate those sort of harmful labels on her own gender. I could say that, but that would be justifying it after the fact. The truth is, I didn't think it was a problem at the time. I've known so many women (many in the lower class, like Haley) who would drop those insults at other women in a fight that I was just trying to add authenticity. In my experience, some women are quicker to slut-shame other women than even men. So I was going for accuracy in how a woman might insult other women, but you know what? It's still not acceptable. I'm still producing a piece of media consumed by young women, and I have a responsibility to do better.

Does this mean that those words will never show up in anything I write ever again? Probably not, but at least in the future I hope to only use them when I'm depicting a character who is overtly sexist/misogynistic (like Tarquin), rather than having them flow out of the mouth of the primary female lead. Because what kind of message does that send? I may be wrong, but I think I've avoided Haley using any of those words for this entire book. I just didn't want to draw attention to it.

And, for the record, "You're oversensitive," is not a valid defense for saying something offensive on this message board. The initial joke was mildly offensive; some of the responses defending it have been much more so. And references to political movements of the past are right out. Scrubbing may be in order.

[GrayGriffin]

Thank you so much for that, Giant. I really wish I could have explained things as eloquently as you did, but I'll be the first to admit I'm young and inexperienced in explaining this kind of thing. I do hope that I was able to convey my feelings in this thread properly, though.

[Shale]

Laurin is a female character probably in her late 50's who is covered from head to toe and has never discussed anything sexual at all. I made a deliberate effort to not sexualize her, even, since I realized a while ago that I was subconsciously "sexing up" almost all of the female characters. The fact that she still rates these kind of comments is very disappointing.

From your mouth and/or keyboard to God's ears. Every time there's a new "Laurin was sleeping with [X]" post I die a little.

[adulus]

Regarding Haley's fairly persistent slut-shaming…all I can do is apologize for that. I have no excuse except my own shortcomings and lack of self-awareness. I could try to say that because of the environment that Haley was raised in (a literal criminal gang), she hasn't had the education or experience to not fall in line and perpetuate those sort of harmful labels on her own gender. I could say that, but that would be justifying it after the fact. The truth is, I didn't think it was a problem at the time. I've known so many women (many in the lower class, like Haley) who would drop those insults at other women in a fight that I was just trying to add authenticity. In my experience, some women are quicker to slut-shame other women than even men. So I was going for accuracy in how a woman might insult other women, but you know what? It's still not acceptable. I'm still producing a piece of media consumed by young women, and I have a responsibility to do better.

Does this mean that those words will never show up in anything I write ever again? Probably not, but at least in the future I hope to only use them when I'm depicting a character who is overtly sexist/misogynistic (like Tarquin), rather than having them flow out of the mouth of the primary female lead. Because what kind of message does that send? I may be wrong, but I think I've avoided Haley using any of those words for this entire book. I just didn't want to draw attention to it.

Not to suck up or anything, but I think you've done a good job characterizing Haley. If you had told me, "Insecure, paranoid rogue pines after attractive, quirky bard but can't spit it out" I would have told you the rogue was male and the bard female. Every day of the week. She explicitly chose her own outfit to remind people she was an attractive woman and has explicitly shown lusting after Elan, but that was not her character or even much of her character. All of this has just been treated as totally normal and mundane which is what really sells it. In my humble opinion, this puts you ahead of about 90 or 95 percent of fantasy literature.

But don't have her just stop with the slut-shaming. It's unrealistic to have the good guys always shouting "Stop, evildoer!" and the bad guys always the ones throwing slurs. If fantasy doesn't tell you about real life, it's just escapism, right? I'm truly happy that you recognize that having a main character calling the women she fights sluts while mentioning nothing about the sexuality of the men is not OK. But you, of all writers, I trust to be able to address it without being preachy or terrible about it.

And, for the record, "You're oversensitive," is not a valid defense for saying something offensive on this message board. The initial joke was mildly offensive; some of the responses defending it have been much more so. And references to political movements of the past are right out. Scrubbing may be in order.

Thank you. All this stuff about "offended" and "overreacting" is just a thin veil for "I don't wan't to talk about it" You're damn straight I will get offended if someone starts supporting, say, eugenics. People will discuss humor and sometimes they will get vehement about it. "You're overreacting" is not a get out of jail free card that means you're automatically right and I'm wrong.

Look, we can criticize the comic and still enjoy it. Do I think the characterization of women in this comic is perfect? Frankly, no. Do I still enjoy this comic and want it to improve? Yes. That's the point of criticism.

[Dragonus45]

Thank you. All this stuff about "offended" and "overreacting" is just a thin veil for "I don't wan't to talk about it" You're damn straight I will get offended if someone starts supporting, say, eugenics. People will discuss humor and sometimes they will get vehement about it. "You're overreacting" is not a get out of jail free card that means you're automatically right and I'm wrong.

I agree with you there on the overreacting line being used far to often in comedy, i just always have thought of humor as being offensive by its very nature. Its sort of built in, or perhaps offensive isn't the right word, but its the closest i can find to define how I feel about humor and how it pushes and blurs the lines of acceptability. In the end though I guess my philosophy on the subject is that quality is its own justification, and when a joke isn't funny it isn't funny and loses and reason to exist, thus causing it to be offensive. That came out a little weird but I can't think of a better way to put it. As to the women in the comic I must say I love the way they are portrayed so far, all them are real people. That's just about the highest praise I can think of The Giants characterizations.

[Cerussite]

Regarding Haley's fairly persistent slut-shaming…all I can do is apologize for that. I have no excuse except my own shortcomings and lack of self-awareness. I could try to say that because of the environment that Haley was raised in (a literal criminal gang), she hasn't had the education or experience to not fall in line and perpetuate those sort of harmful labels on her own gender. I could say that, but that would be justifying it after the fact. The truth is, I didn't think it was a problem at the time. I've known so many women (many in the lower class, like Haley) who would drop those insults at other women in a fight that I was just trying to add authenticity. In my experience, some women are quicker to slut-shame other women than even men. So I was going for accuracy in how a woman might insult other women, but you know what? It's still not acceptable. I'm still producing a piece of media consumed by young women, and I have a responsibility to do better.

You've nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for. Saying the leads can't do something because it 'sends a bad message to young women' sounds very silly to me. You're a writer of fiction, not a moral tutor for the audience.

Characters' flaws are what makes them interesting in the end of the day. Might as well remove her greed while she's at it since it's also a bad message to send.

[GrayGriffin]

I agree with you there on the overreacting line being used far to often in comedy, i just always have thought of humor as being offensive by its very nature. Its sort of built in, or perhaps offensive isn't the right word, but its the closest i can find to define how I feel about humor and how it pushes and blurs the lines of acceptability. In the end though I guess my philosophy on the subject is that quality is its own justification, and when a joke isn't funny it isn't funny and loses and reason to exist, thus causing it to be offensive. That came out a little weird but I can't think of a better way to put it.

Humor is naturally offensive? Do we have the same definition of "humor"? Go into any children's section of any bookstore and you'll find books upon books of child-friendly jokes that are completely unoffensive and yet amusing.

[The Giant]

But don't have her just stop with the slut-shaming. It's unrealistic to have the good guys always shouting "Stop, evildoer!" and the bad guys always the ones throwing slurs.

Well, I think it's as simple as having Haley call someone an asswipe or a piece of dog crap instead of a tramp or a slut. There's no reason her insults need to be sexuality-oriented, but that doesn't mean she's going to stop slinging insults.

[AgentofHellfire]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the original "joke" in this thread was a stretch, considering the only thing she has in common with a "Airborne Tramp" is…nothing. No, literally—nothing. She has been depicted as neither flying nor sexually promiscuous, and those are the only two words in the original reference. The only thing she has in common with any of the characters Haley was referring to with the original joke was that she is female, which means that as far as the OP goes, being female is enough to prompt the mental association. That's not really OK.

Not just being female, though! Being part of that old trope where the female lead fights the female sub-villain, again.

As for your thoughts on Haley's insults, well...I actually could think of numerous positive messages her calling people tramps could send (look at what the giver of the insult is wearing, and then realize that the story implies she isn't a slut/tramp/whatever, and then yeah), but I will mostly keep silent on this.

[Dragonus45]

Humor is naturally offensive? Do we have the same definition of "humor"? Go into any children's section of any bookstore and you'll find books upon books of child-friendly jokes that are completely unoffensive and yet amusing.

Most of which are only funny to children, but if you look at any stand up comic alive right now, or even listen to ANY joke made among your friends, someone is always the but of the joke. Even most punchlines in the strip tend to be at one person or anothers expense. Like I said offensive doesn't feel like the right word but the closest other word I can think of is combative which I feel like is also missing a key point. It's not what i would call a universal rule of humor, but i feel it encompasses a great deal of it.

Well, I think it's as simple as having Haley call someone an asswipe or a piece of dog crap instead of a tramp or a slut. There's no reason her insults need to be sexuality-oriented, but that doesn't mean she's going to stop slinging insults.

True, that captures her character as being fairly foul mouthed without having her devolve into insulting a persons sexual preferences.

[adulus]

Well, I think it's as simple as having Haley call someone an asswipe or a piece of dog crap instead of a tramp or a slut. There's no reason her insults need to be sexuality-oriented, but that doesn't mean she's going to stop slinging insults.

Sorry if my post was written badly. That's exactly what I hope you do. But if bad guys are the only racists and sexists in the story it's just as lazy as if bad guys never care about their family.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: This Thread didn't start in a good place. I'm locking it for review, and likely for good.

[The Giant]

You've nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for. Saying the leads can't do something because it 'sends a bad message to young women' sounds very silly to me. You're a writer of fiction, not a moral tutor for the audience.

It's my decision about how I want my work to be perceived. I've come to my own conclusions about what I want my work to say, and without exception, I want to stand against racism and sexism and homophobia and classism and all the other forms of discrimination and dehumanization that take place in our society. I want to be part of the solution. And if that means taking a hard look at what I wrote in the past when maybe I didn't think as much about these things, then that's what it means.

I'm writing a fantasy story here, which means I can pretty much do one of two things if I want to make a difference: I can either relate the situations in the story allegorically to situations in the real world and use them to make a larger point, or I can use the fantasy world that I'm making to show a world that doesn't have those problems. I managed to do this with race, but I fell down on the job when it comes to gender.

Characters' flaws are, what makes them interesting in the end of the day. Might as well remove her greed while she's at it since it's also a bad message to send.

A character flaw is only a flaw if it is acknowledged and addressed within the narrative as being so. If it's just left to stand in a heroic character without comment, it becomes something that is transmitted to audience as being acceptable. If I had other characters looking at Haley and pointing out the problems with what she's doing, that would be wholly valid as a character flaw for her. I haven't done that. I have done that with her greed, or her trust issues, or Roy's early sexism toward Miko, or V's pride, or any number of other intentional character flaws. So, no, this isn't a case of an intentional character flaw, this was a flaw in me, the author, that I simply failed to screen out.

And Mark, while I'm totally down with you reviewing this thread for violations, at this point I'm engaging in this conversation and would like to keep it open. Thanks.

[CaDzilla]

Does this mean that those words will never show up in anything I write ever again? Probably not, but at least in the future I hope to only use them when I'm depicting a character who is overtly sexist/misogynistic (like Tarquin), rather than having them flow out of the mouth of the primary female lead. Because what kind of message does that send? I may be wrong, but I think I've avoided Haley using any of those words for this entire book. I just didn't want to draw attention to it.

Just wondering, does Tarquin see everybody in the world as cardboard cutouts? When he was apologizing to Malack about his children, was he just doing that to give what he thought, at the time, was a pet the dog moment? Also, how did he see his female teamates?

[Kish]

{SCRUBBED}

Just wondering, does Tarquin see everybody in the world as cardboard cutouts? When he was apologizing to Malack about his children, was he just doing that to give what he thought, at the time, was a pet the dog moment? Also, how did he see his female teamates?

I'm not Rich, of course, but I do remember him saying, back when the Order was still fighting the army, that Tarquin considered that there were two people in the scene--himself and Elan--and everyone else there was window dressing, Laurin and Miron included.

[Aard_Rinn]

Just tossing this out there...

I thought that this was a funny joke. Not really worthy of a thread of it's own, but if it had been posted as an aside in the Disscussion Thread, I would've lolled and moved on... It does seem a bit rude for a separate thread; it's just not that funny, and it's a bit too crude when you add on the skank/milf question. That bit felt unnecessary to the joke, and more like actual slut-shaming.

I thought the original joke (in the comic) was awesome. It was insulting, and it was an insult, by a character, in character. It seemed like something Haley would say. Nothing there to take offense at, really...

And I am a woman, since some people feel that matters for discussions like this. So...

[Dragonus45]

A character flaw is only a flaw if it is acknowledged and addressed within the narrative as being so. If it's just left to stand in a heroic character without comment, it becomes something that is transmitted to audience as being acceptable.

You know I had never thought of the concept of character flaws in quite that way. It makes a fair bit of sense. So do you think its possible to have a flawed character who is portrayed as flawed but not called out on specific flaws. Or is it just to easy to for people to pick what they felt was wrong and ignore what makes them uncomfortable in a character meaning the author to a degree needs to have some element of the story call them out on it, or at least frame it as being acknowledged wrong by the author as wrong. I had always thought of flaws as being self evident meaning the author had no need to call them out.

[Zmeoaice]

As for your thoughts on Haley's insults, well...I actually could think of numerous positive messages her calling people tramps could send (look at what the giver of the insult is wearing, and then realize that the story implies she isn't a slut/tramp/whatever, and then yeah), but I will mostly keep silent on this.

You mean that Haley's current outfit is "slutty" so her calling other women tramps or skanks for wearing revealing clothing would be hypocritical?

[AgentofHellfire]

Just wondering, does Tarquin see everybody in the world as cardboard cutouts? When he was apologizing to Malack about his children, was he just doing that to give what he thought, at the time, was a pet the dog moment?

I think that was just him escaping death. (but still serious)

[AgentofHellfire]

You mean that Haley's current outfit is "slutty" so her calling other women tramps or skanks for wearing revealing clothing would be hypocritical?

Well, that or "revealing clothing (and/or promiscuity, although my sense that Haley probably has a promiscuous streak might just be me) doesn't make you a tramp".

[The Giant]

You know I had never thought of the concept of character flaws in quite that way. It makes a fair bit of sense. So do you think its possible to have a flawed character who is portrayed as flawed but not called out on specific flaws. Or is it just to easy to for people to pick what they felt was wrong and ignore what makes them uncomfortable in a character meaning the author to a degree needs to have some element of the story call them out on it, or at least frame it as being acknowledged wrong by the author as wrong.

More the latter. No one needs to stand and tell the character, "What you're doing is wrong!" if the general thrust of the story implies that it is. It's really only an issue for heroes, because there's an implicit assumption that a heroic character is Heroic Unless Proven Otherwise.

[Cerussite]

It's my decision about how I want my work to be perceived. I've come to my own conclusions about what I want my work to say, and without exception, I want to stand against racism and sexism and homophobia and classism and all the other forms of discrimination and dehumanization that take place in our society. I want to be part of the solution. And if that means taking a hard look at what I wrote in the past when maybe I didn't think as much about these things, then that's what it means.

I'm writing a fantasy story here, which means I can pretty much do one of two things if I want to make a difference: I can either relate the situations in the story allegorically to situations in the real world and use them to make a larger point, or I can use the fantasy world that I'm making to show a world that doesn't have those problems. I managed to do this with race, but I fell down on the job when it comes to gender.

Fair enough. If such is your wish to portray one such world, I have no objection to that. I had felt from your first post that you were acquiescing to the wishes of a society that doesn't accept the portrayal of some behaviors, even when it's an accurate one. I see that I was wrong, and it makes all the difference that you actually believe what you preach.

[Dragonus45]

Just wondering, does Tarquin see everybody in the world as cardboard cutouts? When he was apologizing to Malack about his children, was he just doing that to give what he thought, at the time, was a pet the dog moment? Also, how did he see his female teamates?

Honestly I would say that the T really views the entire world as meaningless objects that exist only to further his own life and narrative. It's sociopathic narcissism, along side machiavellianism taken to such an extreme that even his own sons are just puppets on his a stage, better animated ones with movable eye brows and facial expressions but puppets all the same. The other side of that coin though is that narcissists need validation and recognition from the same people they view as only having value in relation to the. They need that world view to be validated, and i think that's the closes to a real apology a person from his perspective could ever give. As to his female teamates probably the same as everyone else alive, at least he manages to equal opportunity in his dismissal of the importance of the entire cosmos.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Well, that or "revealing clothing (and/or promiscuity, although my sense that Haley probably has a promiscuous streak might just be me) doesn't make you a tramp".

It's not just you; I feel the same way too. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that! In fact, I think it's a good thing that Haley is a sexual character while still being intelligent and competent in her own right. You don't see that nearly as often as you should.

[Math_Mage]

No.
The question is: 'Does she qualify for the Airborne Skank Bonus.'
Since the bonus, and therefore the attributes needed to qualify for it exist purely in Haley's imagination, (since she invented the fictitious bonus, as a joke) this means: 'Does Haley categorize her as a skank?'

If the bonus was real (including home-brewed), you would be right. It isn't, so you are not.

Leaving aside that you're really stretching here...Quoting a different part of the post from the one I quoted doesn't mean I'm wrong about the part I quoted, it just means you think a different part makes a different argument. I'm pretty sure I don't have to show that OP was never ever talking about Haley's perception of Laurin. Showing that OP was talking about how we the audience do/should perceive Laurin is sufficient to pose a problem.

Sorry if my post was written badly. That's exactly what I hope you do. But if bad guys are the only racists and sexists in the story it's just as lazy as if bad guys never care about their family.

That's not the issue, though. The issue is if racism and sexism are presented uncritically. Good characters can be racist or sexist, but they're character flaws, not just character traits.

EDIT: Whoops, I should read all the Giant's posts before I post to avoid being ninja'd by a giant. You'd think giants would make pretty poor ninjas, but hey.

[AgentofHellfire]

It's not just you; I feel the same way too. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that! In fact, I think it's a good thing that Haley is a sexual character while still being intelligent and competent in her own right. You don't see that nearly as often as you should.

I appreciate the implication that I am a progressive writer.

(I'm actually pretty unconcerned with where my writing falls on the prejudice spectrum, although I tend to think my own personal tastes direct me towards work that's pretty liberal, if a bit imperialist in nature)

[CaDzilla]

I

Does this mean that those words will never show up in anything I write ever again? Probably not, but at least in the future I hope to only use them when I'm depicting a character who is overtly sexist/misogynistic (like Tarquin), rather than having them flow out of the mouth of the primary female lead. Because what kind of message does that send? I may be wrong, but I think I've avoided Haley using any of those words for this entire book. I just didn't want to draw attention to it.

Several other questions about Tarquin's group and Tarquin himself: if Tarquin is so misogynistic, why did he recruit two women into his group instead of just taking the convention of smurfetting? Did Tarquin know that Malack was a vampire when he first recruited him, and if so how did he react? Is Tarquin named after the first or second real life one? Does he give equal pay to lizardfolk employees?

[The Giant]

Fair enough. If such is your wish to portray one such world, I have no objection to that. I had felt from your first post that you were acquiescing to the wishes of a society that doesn't accept the portrayal of some behaviors, even when it's an accurate one. I see that I was wrong, and it makes all the difference that you actually believe what you preach.

If I was writing a gritty realistic story about a woman living as a career criminal in New York, I would have every right to defend my dialogue choices for her as realistic or accurate. But I lose that defense the moment I have a character wiggle their fingers and shoot a ball of fire at a giant flying lizard, much less have the characters spout off about their hit points and Spot checks.

[AgentofHellfire]

Leaving aside that you're really stretching here...Quoting a different part of the post from the one I quoted doesn't mean I'm wrong about the part I quoted, it just means you think a different part makes a different argument. I'm pretty sure I don't have to show that OP was never ever talking about Haley's perception of Laurin. Showing that OP was talking about how we the audience do/should perceive Laurin is sufficient to pose a problem.

He was talking about how they (I don't, and would resent the implication that I did) perceive Laurin--and hanging a lampshade over it. I don't know if that would cause the same problem.