Modern 'elementals'

[molten_dragon]

I've been playing around with some ideas for games I might want to run in the future, and I had an interesting idea today.

I think a modern take on the classical elementals would be interesting. Rather than being manifestations of the 4 classical elements though, they would be manifestations of the 4 fundamental forces (Electromagnetism, Gravity, Strong Nuclear Force, and Weak Nuclear force). Like the elementals, they would be composed of, and could control that force.

I'm kind of having trouble conceiving of what they'd be like and what they'd do though. Electromagnetism and gravity are easier, since I'm more familiar with them, but even those are giving me some problems.

So I decided to ask the playground for help. What abilities do you see these fundamental force beings having, and what do you think they would 'look' like (for lack of a better term).

I'm more concerned with generalities than fitting them into a specific game system.

[No brains]

That is an interesting thought there. Let me think...

Electromagnetism is real easy. Just have it look like a lightning dude.

Gravity is harder, because it's hard to illustrate gravity without the mass that causes it. It could look like a shapeless prism, as its gravity bends light into a multicolored blob.

Where this gets harder is that electromagnetism is governed by photons(If I didn't have a horrible teacher). So technically, the electric elemental has the monopoly on being visible. Worse, electromagnetism is a process that specifically overrides the weak force in all cases. It will take a lot of imagination to makes these forces interact like classical elements.

One source of inspiration is to ask: what do these forces do for us every day? The strong force is responsible for nuclear energy(again, IIRC), so it would have to have some kind of energetic look to it. The weak force usually comes into play in chemistry, so maybe a weak elemental could look like a fizzing blob of acid, continually exchanging electrons among many elements.

[Grinner]

• Gravity could be a miniature black hole.
• Electromagnetism...a living aurora borealis, maybe? Or perhaps a mobile electromagnetic disturbance? (Just imagine everything in the house flickering on and your TV suddenly talking to you.)
• Weak Force could be described as a "stillness", I guess.
• And Strong Force would be like some sort of chaos elemental. (Edit: Or maybe a snake of light?)

I'm not a physicist, mind you, but my understanding of those terms leads me to believe those fit the bill.

Edit2: Ninja'd?

[molten_dragon]

I should clarify. I don't expect that all of them will be visible to the naked eye. Some of them may not be visible at all, but they should be detectable in some manner.

For example an Electromagnetic elemental might simply be a shining light that varies through the EM spectrum, from radio waves through hard gamma radiation.

A gravity elemental might be a gravitational singularity that can't be seen at all, except through gravitational lensing, or with a gravimeter.

[ellindsey]

The weak nuclear force is responsible for certain subatomic particle interactions, particularly those which are responsible for one subatomic particle turning into a different type of subatomic particle. This is the cause of certain types of radioactive decay. The strong nuclear force on the other hand is responsible for holding quarks together to make subatomic particles, and holding subatomic particles together to make atomic nuclei. I have no idea how to make an elemental that represents either of these.

[Slipperychicken]

Weak Nuclear force

If you can sell a layperson on a "Weak Nuclear Force Elemental", then I tip my hat to you, because that sounds incredibly boring to me.

[erikun]

Electromagnitism is quite obvious. It is electricity and magnetics.

Gravity is also quite obvious, if a bit harder to implement. It is gravity, and how large objects are attracted to each other.

Weak Nuclear Force is apparently also called the weak interaction, and it governs radioactive decay. Probably the easiest way to describe this would be "randomness", as the decay of a radioactive material is the only way we know of to produce true randomness. Other than that, I'm not sure how else you would apply it.

Strong Nuclear Force is also known as strong interaction. It is the force holding the inside of an atomic nucleus together, and does nothing else. On the one hand, it would be difficult to apply it in most situations. Even if you hit somebody with a "Strong Nuclear Force attack", the range of such at attack would be measured in femtometers; it would literally not even affect a single atom of their body. On the other hand, disrupting the Strong Nuclear Forces that make up an object would literally cause it to fall apart. Such an effect would be equivalent to Disintegrate or, quite possibly, spontaneous nuclear detonation.

Needless to say, SNF would be the most powerful weapon to use. It would also be the most dangerous, and probably the most difficult to attempt.


[EDIT]

Where this gets harder is that electromagnetism is governed by photons(If I didn't have a horrible teacher). So technically, the electric elemental has the monopoly on being visible. Worse, electromagnetism is a process that specifically overrides the weak force in all cases. It will take a lot of imagination to makes these forces interact like classical elements.

As an aside, light/photons are not a force and so would only relate to forces incidentally. Electromagnetic forces are governed by the movement of electrons, not photons. (Hence, electro-. Also why "electricity" is named what it is.)

[molten_dragon]

If you can sell a layperson on a "Weak Nuclear Force Elemental", then I tip my hat to you, because that sounds incredibly boring to me.

The group I play with is mostly science nerds. They'll love it.

[Beleriphon]

Strong Nuclear Force is also known as strong interaction. It is the force holding the inside of an atomic nucleus together, and does nothing else. On the one hand, it would be difficult to apply it in most situations. Even if you hit somebody with a "Strong Nuclear Force attack", the range of such at attack would be measured in femtometers; it would literally not even affect a single atom of their body. On the other hand, disrupting the Strong Nuclear Forces that make up an object would literally cause it to fall apart. Such an effect would be equivalent to Disintegrate or, quite possibly, spontaneous nuclear detonation.

Needless to say, SNF would be the most powerful weapon to use. It would also be the most dangerous, and probably the most difficult to attempt.

I was going to mention that. The SNF is what basically holds atoms together, so if you can control that you can stop it from working functionally making something collapse into its base subatomic particles. On a large enough scale you'd be looking at the ability to make anything cease to be. By the same token with enough control you could turn anything you want into something else.

[Slipperychicken]

The group I play with is mostly science nerds. They'll love it.

Nice. I figured this kind of thing would make science/physics people happy.

[Note to Self: Cram in some physics classes before graduation]

[erikun]

I was going to mention that. The SNF is what basically holds atoms together, so if you can control that you can stop it from working functionally making something collapse into its base subatomic particles. On a large enough scale you'd be looking at the ability to make anything cease to be. By the same token with enough control you could turn anything you want into something else.

Not... really, no.

I mean, mucking around with SNF could transmute an element, in a way. Weakening it just enough to let a few protons and neutrons release from each atom would give you a lighter element (along with producing alpha particles). Trying to create a heavier element would be far more difficult, and would require extending the SNF to cover at least two atoms to combine them together. This could work... in theory... but it would much be like using gravity to create a black hole as a method to transmute carbon into lead, or something similar.

While I can see the idea behind it, it's kind of hard to say how well it would work - and probably far, far more likely that squashing all the electrons from both atoms into that same nucleus will have some rather... unintended consequences.

[Lord Raziere]

The group I play with is mostly science nerds. They'll love it.

In my opinion... try solids, liquids, gasses and plasma instead. they're better analogues to the classical elements and they're broad enough for a lot of creativity. plus you don't have to strain yourself trying to think how the strong and weak nuclear forces work as elementals.

but...if you insist on the current formation, then unfortunately I have nothing to add.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

If you can sell a layperson on a "Weak Nuclear Force Elemental", then I tip my hat to you, because that sounds incredibly boring to me.

It's more exciting if you describe them as (gauge) boson elementals.

So, Photon Elemental: pretty self-explanatory. Radiation! Fireballs! Lightning bolts! Ads for personal injury lawyers!

Graviton Elemental: Also, as people have noted, pretty easy. Squish.

Gluon Elemental: I'm thinking a sort of stable Glueball, so you have dozens of different interpretations available. If you're fighting it, it has some seriously bad news disintegrating touch/slam attacks, as well as stomping around in a deadly miasma of radioactive and antimatter particles.

W Boson Elemental: Difficult to detect; you have to track it by the trail of neutrinos and charged particles it spews out. Also has a tendency to start nuclear reactions (of whatever size the DM pleases ). Always accompanied by a Higgs Elemental, or some other strong fluctuation in the Higgs field.

Z Boson Elemental: Even harder to detect; is most easily spotted (if you could possibly call it easy) by its shadow in streams of neutrinos. Also accompanied by a Higgs Elemental.

Higgs Elemental: Very mysterious, but has no associated directionality. Accompanied by an area of increased vacuum energy, where (in the absence of sufficient gravity) space begins to expand and tear itself apart.

[Kane0]

Can we compromise and have a Nuclear elemental?

Cause you know, the Tarrasque and Astral Dreadnaught need an elemental counterpart...

[Slipperychicken]

Can we compromise and have a Nuclear elemental?

If we have nuclear elementals, I vote that the Elder version should have Death Throes (Ex) with a radius listed in miles, with smaller elementals having (relatively) smaller death-explosions.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

You may be interested in the Nuclear Toxyderm.

[Kane0]

If we have nuclear elementals, I vote that the Elder version should have Death Throes (Ex) with a radius listed in miles, with smaller elementals having (relatively) smaller death-explosions.

... I am ok with this.

Edit: Now I will forever see a small nuclear elemental bouncing around inside each Battlemech engine. Way to cross game systems.

[The Glyphstone]

I dunno, an Elder Strong Nuclear Force Elemental having an attack line of 'Slam +26 melee: 2d8+6 plus spontaneous nuclear detonation' would be pretty cool to see in a MM.

[Slipperychicken]

I dunno, an Elder Strong Nuclear Force Elemental having an attack line of 'Slam +26 melee: 2d8+6 plus spontaneous nuclear detonation' would be pretty cool to see in a MM.

If those words appear in a dnd game, one knows that something has just gone horribly wrong gloriously right.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

If those words appear in a dnd game, one knows that something has just gone horribly wrong gloriously right.

Ahem. From the d20 Modern SRD:

Chain Reaction (Su): If the nuclear toxyderm is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, it explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 400 points of damage to everything (creatures and objects alike) within 400 feet and 100 points of damage to everything within a mile; a successful Reflex save halves the damage (DC 10 + 1/2 toxyderm’s Hit Dice + toxyderm’s Dexterity modifier). This explosion generally results in a milehigh mushroom cloud and a highly radioactive crater a quarter-mile across.

[Mastikator]

Can we compromise and have a Nuclear elemental?

Cause you know, the Tarrasque and Astral Dreadnaught need an elemental counterpart...

A miniature neutron star?

[Slipperychicken]

Ahem. From the d20 Modern SRD:

I already read that. I just thought it was homebrew because of the site's layout.

A miniature neutron star?

There was a homebrew Neutronium Golem a while back. It might as well have been a Big Numbers Elemental, since that's more or less what it boiled down to.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

A miniature neutron star?

But that would be a Hadron Elemental!

Re: Toxyderms, if you prefer a less... Geocities source, check http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd under Arcana Creatures, or if you can find a print copy of Urban Arcana.

[nedz]

I dunno, an Elder Strong Nuclear Force Elemental having an attack line of 'Slam +26 melee: 2d8+6 plus spontaneous nuclear detonation' would be pretty cool to see in a MM.

Disintegrate touch attack

A Weak Nuclear Force Elemental would do a random polymorph perhaps ?

In my opinion... try solids, liquids, gasses and plasma instead. they're better analogues to the classical elements and they're broad enough for a lot of creativity. plus you don't have to strain yourself trying to think how the strong and weak nuclear forces work as elementals.

Also Bose-Einstein Condensate Elementals and Supercritical Fluid Elementals.

[Anne Calie]

Yay! I always thought bringing our science knowledge to RPG makes things more interesting.

In my opinion... try solids, liquids, gasses and plasma instead. they're better analogues to the classical elements and they're broad enough for a lot of creativity. plus you don't have to strain yourself trying to think how the strong and weak nuclear forces work as elementals.

I also like to think the classic elementals are analogies to states of matter.
About the "forces" elementals... really, is hard to think a materialization for them, especially because it will probably tend to atoms and subparticles. Perhaps doing like the Giant, bringing elementals out of the periodic table, is refreshing and more easy.

[Fayd]

One thing I would point out is that the classical elements aren't TOTALLY unjustifiable by science; each represents a STATE of matter, so you've got Earth (Solid), Water (Liquid), Air (Gas), Fire (Plasma). Each of them is a relatively easily available form of the state of matter. I suppose if you want to get a Bose-Einstein Condensate we're getting into more... interesting... elementals.

[Chauncymancer]

More conceptually, the weak and strong force elementals could affect the connections between and within things respectively. The weak force could "disconnect" things (denying teamwork/flanking bonuses?) while a strong force golem could "dissolve" things into constituent parts.

[Sir_Thaddeus]

I think this thread is a wonderful idea, and I fully support the creation of elementals corresponding to the 4 forces.

Except one problem: forces aren't elements, so we can't call them elementals.

Does anyone have a good idea for an alternate name? Forcementals? Forcals?

[Necroticplague]

Just my 2 cents on two possibilities for gravity elementals:

1:Invisible, mostly. Since the forvr of gravity is only directly visible in the way light bends through it, the elemental would not be visible in a normal way. Light bending through it would mean the most you see is an outline of it at the point where it ceases to be bent.Figuring where it is should be easy, but it would benefit from permanent concealment.

2:Starkly noticeable. The gravity of a gravity elemental is so great, light does not escape at all, instead of merely being bent. It appears as less of a figure and more of a hole in the world.Basically, a vaguely humanoid-shaped black hole. Of course, it's hawking radiation means infrared cameras can see this thing from miles off.

Although, when I saw the thread title, i did expect to be reading about Hydrogen Elementals all the way up to ununoctium elementals.

[No brains]

...The gravity of a gravity elemental is so great, light does not escape at all, instead of merely being bent...

Oh, what if that light got out when it died? It's not a nuke, but a flash bomb could make an inconvenient low level death throes.