My friend just did the impossible.

[Morithias]

Okay, so we were playing a game where he's playing an incubus, however the incubus is min-maxed out like crazy, and after a chain of events he ends up at level 19.

The idea of the campaign is that an elder god is going to come into his world and he has to stop it, par for course.

Naturally I couldn't find the stats for the elder god I wanted to use, so I whip out the Call of Cthultu D20 books.

I look over his sheet and we do some math. He'll require some magical items from his artificer cohort, and Azathoth spell resistance is too high for him to hit him with his spell likes, so we start looking for ideas.

Now once you reach epic levels in my game a new rule enters. A natural 20 is equal to +30, and a natural 1 is equal to -10.

We do some math and....his AC is so high and his saves so high after the new items that Azathoth cannot hurt him.

Now we just have to figure out how to kill Azathoth. An amulet of mighty fists gets around the 55/+4 Dr, but the fast healing 200.

Well we punch in some more numbers, and yes...he can do more than 200 damage a round. Barely over, but he can do it.

So in translation, my friend just according to our calculations, killed a CR 50 monster solo, without spellcasting, and doing death of a thousand cuts with his claw attacks.

....Why the hell do people call Charisma a dump stat?!?

The sad part is, before I even pulled out the Cthulhu books, his plan was to go through the portal solo, and attempt to take on the Elder god.

His plan was to go into the far realm, and kill the elder god solo, chuck norris style, BEFORE we did the math to see if it was possible.

Literally the stupidest action ever. Going solo into the far realms to fight Azathoth single-handed....ended up being the smart thing to do.

An action that would end in a TPK and a darwin award under ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE....

I just...I cannot believe this. He just killed a monster 31 CR higher than his PC.

And I didn't even have to roll the die. He cannot lose, unless i'm seriously missing something. Sure you could argue the alter reality power or something, but come on, the guy has an intelligence score of 3.

So...now to our question.

What's the experience points for a CR 50 monster in Pathfinder?

Edit: This probably should be in 3.5 Sorry. Can I get this moved?

[BWR]

Mixing CoC d20 and Pathfinder. Two VERY different power levels. CR calculations are always a bit off, but in this case they are very off. They might work if based off CoCd20 levels, in which case 50 is quite reasonable. By PF standards, Azathoth isn't that impressive, not enough to warrent a CR 50.


Also, it seems like you didn't do any real prep for this encounter. Azathoth doesn't have access to tons of PF feats and abilities that would be useful, DR should be /Epic in PF, not /+4. Not giving A gear. Sure, the idea of a mindless gibbering entity have actual magic items sounds ridiculous, but just take it as guidelines that he has some extra powers that function about like magic items.
Not allowing A to do anything before the PC shows up. Is he just standing there, taking damage? If the PC is barely doing more than 200 damage a round, it should take about 2000 rounds for A to die. This should give A many nat 20s to hit the PC. Is he immune to Intelligence drain? Are there absolutely no spells of 9th level or lower that could inconvenience him?

[Morithias]

Not allowing A to do anything before the PC shows up.

2. Is he just standing there, taking damage? If the PC is barely doing more than 200 damage a round, it should take about 2000 rounds for A to die This should give A many nat 20s to hit the PC.

3. Is he immune to Intelligence drain?

4. Are there absolutely no spells of 9th level or lower that could inconvenience him?

1. The PC is literally doing the stupidest action possible. I have no clue how anyone, especially a mindless god is going to see this coming.

2. Like I said, house rule, natural 20 = +30, and his AC is so high Azathoth can't hit him.

3. The intelligence drain requires him to hit with a slam attack. Even on a natural 30, Azathoth cannot hit him.

4. Unless you can find me a spell that has no attack roll, no save, no ANYTHING. Yes. I cannot think of a single one. Even on a -10 roll, the PC's saves are so high he makes his throw.

[Rhynn]

Mixing CoC d20 and Pathfinder. Two VERY different power levels.

CoC d20 does not have CoC d20 stats for the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones; it has D&D 3E (not 3.5) stats for them, explicitly. (There's instructions for converting them into CoC d20, but you're also told they're not needed.)

However, they have the same problems as all epic creatures in D&D 3.X: pathetic optimization.

I am curious, though, how the PC got touch AC over 105 and/or mitigated the 42d12 damage from Squamous Blast (which is a ranged touch attack)? And why didn't Azathoth use Alter Reality? There's plenty of ways to attack without targeting AC or saves if you can use any spell up to 9th level at will as a move action (the standard action can go to Squamous Blast).

Also, there's countless spells that only have their effects halved by a successful save, unless the PC had Evasion and equivalents for Fort and Will.

Edit: teleport away, use Remote Sensing to keep tabs on the PC, use buffs to increase Dex, attack rolls, etc., teleport again to within 24 miles, start using Squamous Blast with true strike, gate in help...

[Morithias]

I am curious, though, how the PC got touch AC over 105 and/or mitigated the 42d12 damage from Squamous Blast (which is a ranged touch attack)? And why didn't Azathoth use Alter Reality? There's plenty of ways to attack without targeting AC or saves if you can use any spell up to 9th level at will as a move action (the standard action can go to Squamous Blast).

His charisma is in the high 70's and he has both deflection and battledancer levels, along with a ton of other stuff.

[Kerim]

*low hundreds. On a good day, at least.

[Morithias]

*low hundreds. On a good day, at least.

Oh yeah I forgot the rod of repression and all that stuff too.

[Madwand99]

If Azathoth has Alter Reality, the incubus doesn't have a chance. There are SO MANY ways Azathoth could defeat him, possibly hundreds just in the PHB alone. First of all... Azathoth is never going to die. If he gets below half hit points, he'll teleport away to heal, then come back later (if he feels like it). Or, he could cast Mass Heal on himself as often as necessary (can the Incubus do more than 450 damage/round?).

As for spells... just start looking through the PHB and Spell Compendium. Azathoth gets ALL of these spells to choose from. Many, many of these would be effective on your incubus. Plenty of spells do half damage on a save, or put up a shield (fire, acid, sonic, you name it) that damages an attacker on a strike. Just use some of them!

[BWR]

1. The PC is literally doing the stupidest action possible. I have no clue how anyone, especially a mindless god is going to see this coming.

2. Like I said, house rule, natural 20 = +30, and his AC is so high Azathoth can't hit him.

3. The intelligence drain requires him to hit with a slam attack. Even on a natural 30, Azathoth cannot hit him.

4. Unless you can find me a spell that has no attack roll, no save, no ANYTHING. Yes. I cannot think of a single one. Even on a -10 roll, the PC's saves are so high he makes his throw.

Honestly, you brought this on yourself.
Get rid of the house rule about nat 20/1s.
Also, allowing your player to optimize that absurdly, if you don't do it yourself, is guarenteeing that nothing you pull out of official supplements will have any chance.
What the hell is the point of the Alter Reality power if you are going to argue A is too stupid to use it? Call it instinct, but let A use it's abilities.

Is the PCs Will save bonus greater than 68? If not: everybody's favorite: targeted Mordenkainen's Mage's Disjunction. With a 1000+ rounds, the PC will fail a few STs and start losing magic items.
You can probably increase the DC with a few items and feat changes.

Allow Alter Reality to bring in spells from other books. Does the PC have immunity to mind affecting effects or being staggered? If not - Overwhelming Presence. Even on a successful save he's staggered.
Waves of Exhaustion - no ST and make the PC.

Why is Azathoth standing still? Even if he's not the brightest creature, why not just teleport somewhere else?
Alter Reality to Gate in something that can help. Gate in swarms of lesser monsters to annoy the PC. Since the lesser monsters are not epic, they are by your own words immune to the nat 20/1 house rule - death by papercuts in return.

Allow A's caster level to equal his HD.
Use AR -> Gate to gate in another Mythos monster. Shub-Niggurath's Life and Death is auto-kill, no ST.

Maze has no ST. Every time the PC shows up, he's put on ice for a while. Allow A buff time - let him throw every damn buff spell on himself. If that and 5x normal treasure (do you have any idea how much gold that would end up being?) isn't enough to buff him up to start hitting the PC, you are doing something wrong.
If nothing else, just use AR to Magic Missile the guy to death. He should have enough time to do it with 1000+ rounds.


Battledancer? I thought this was Pathfinder. If you are allowing stuff from other books and earlier editions, and just use Alter Reality to Ice Assassin the PC. Let him fight himself.

Actually, I'd like to see the stats of this PC. It's a lot easier to give advice if we know the specifics.

[Faily]

Battle Dancer gets Improved Evasion (but not Evasion? lol), but no Mettle or other Fortitude&Will-related bonuses. There are plenty of spells to choose from in 3.5/Pathfinder that will still mess you up even if you succeed on your Fortitude or Will save for a short while. Unless the PC is immune to fatigue, stun, daze, exhaustion, negative energy, ability damage/drain, dazzled, shaken, paralyze, sickened, nauseated... you get the idea.

If the PC is not Epic level, from what I can tell with your House Rule, he would still be getting natural 1's on his Save and thus fail his saving throws. So in a battle that is lasting 1000+ rounds, 5% of those saves are an auto-failure... that is at least 50 failed saving throws. And that is being conservative. A natural 1 is still a failure, even if all your saves are at 100. There's a Divine Ability that lets you treat a Natural 1 as simply just a 1, and not an automatic failure (Deities & Demigods).

Is Azathoth alone? NPCs, contrary to popular belief of many PCs, do not exist in a stasis until the PCs come along. What is going on around him? Are his allies there?

Also, even with an Intelligence of 3, even an animal got enough instinct to think "I'm hurt. Get away!", and then follow the route of getting away to the best of their ability. Azathoth is smart enough to use his abilities, otherwise he wouldn't have them.

With a treasure of 5 x Standard, he is bound to have some magic items on himself. Just because he's a monstrous elder god doesn't mean he can't have some magic rings, a belt, a cloak or a pair of boots somewhere on an appendage (that might be inside his body, because hey, elder gods are weird).

All in all, it would seem you are very much underestimating the abilities of Azathoth, dice statistics, and the amount of ridinculous spells you can pull off with Alter Reality that won't give a flying squirrel about good-saves.

Also, yes, it might give a different perspective to know more about this PC, other than that he's a Battle Dancer.

[Morithias]

I don't want fricken advice. I'm going to let him win because 1. It was suppose to be D’endrrah, but she's not stated.

And two. IT'S FRICKEN AWESOME.

and three. If I don't know of these spells, what the hell is the chance that a 3 intelligence creature knows of them. In canon isn't he suppose to be mindless?

And even so

Even if he couldn't beat Azathoth. I KNOW he could beat D’endrrah.

[Vanitas]

All I understand from the OP is "Houserules change game expectations."
That's not impossible.
That's default.

[Morithias]

Houserule changes game expectations.
That's not impossible.
That's default.

Impossible is metaphor for how over the top it was. Obviously if he did it it was not impossible.

[Faily]

And I didn't even have to roll the die. He cannot lose, unless i'm seriously missing something.

Posters have mentioned what you missed. And pointed out that there is no auto-victory.

IMO, it seems like you're giving out a hollow victory since you've already decided that they would win, with no dice or danger.

All I understand from the OP is "Houserules change game expectations."
That's not impossible.
That's default.

Well said. :) Didn't see it at first.

[Vanitas]

This Azatoth sounds incredibly weak and dumb, btw.
Why can't he
1) Run away
2) Dispel magic
3) Get enough critters/buffs so he can fight
4) Use blasphemy

[Morithias]

Posters have mentioned what you missed. And pointed out that there is no auto-victory.

IMO, it seems like you're giving out a hollow victory since you've already decided that they would win, with no dice or danger.

So if a pit fiend goes up against a commoner, the DM should actually play the fight out?

Again, at this point we're just screwing around, and maybe I'm not that great of DM.

Besides...I'm sure Kerim could out do me anyway. The last fight he got into before the god, I had to break the rules for rule of drama, to make it a fight, and he STILL won after I cheated.

[BWR]

Sure, Azathoth is pretty stupid but what's the point of having "all spells at will" if you don't allow him to use it? Don't think of it as using intelligence, think of it instinct. He wants to go someplace, he warps reality to go there (Gt. Teleport).
He's hurting, he makes himself whole again (Heal). Something is annoying him and he can't crush it physically, he wiggles reality a bit until said problem is not annoying him (Wish or Miracle, or trying out several spells until he finds one that works).

Basically, you threw the battle. You pulled a creature out of a book, did not prepare for the encounter at all, didn't bother to look for ways to win apart from base stats and refused to consider using its most useful ability which would have allowed Azathoth to win.
This is no victory, this is just a pointless piece of PC wanking.

[Vanitas]

Sure, Azathoth is pretty stupid but what's the point of having "all spells at will" if you don't allow him to use it? Don't think of it as using intelligence, think of it instinct. He wants to go someplace, he warps reality to go there (Gt. Teleport).
He's hurting, he makes himself whole again (Heal). Something is annoying him and he can't crush it physically, he wiggles reality a bit until said problem is not annoying him (Wish or Miracle, or trying out several spells until he finds one that works).

Basically, you threw the battle. You pulled a creature out of a book, did not prepare for the encounter at all, didn't bother to look for ways to win apart from base stats and refused to consider using its most useful ability which would have allowed Azathoth to win.
This is no victory, this is just a pointless piece of PC wanking.

Quoted for truth.

[Morithias]

Basically, you threw the battle. You pulled a creature out of a book, did not prepare for the encounter at all, didn't bother to look for ways to win apart from base stats and refused to consider using its most useful ability which would have allowed Azathoth to win.
This is no victory, this is just a pointless piece of PC wanking.

Considering I run a game for this friend almost daily. I have little to no time to actually prepare. I am literally writing by the seat of my pants, and if I can't improv fast enough, that's my fault.

The point is, I need experience values for a creature of that magnitude. I have an idea, but I need to put a number to it, before I can put it into motion.

[Faily]

Again, at this point we're just screwing around

I'm not really getting what your purpose of all this is then. Screwing around with optimizing is all well and good, but everyone can power-up a character to defeat an enemy on the Epic-level if they take for granted that those who have become so powerful to be as gods do not take use of those abilities that have made them into such powerful beings and kept them as such for a long time.

In your OP, you say, as I quoted above "he can't lose, unless I missed something", to which I and others have pointed out that you missed some things. Such as the PC still being subject to automatic fails on 1 approximataly 5% of the time as he's not Epic, as per your House Rule. Azathoth has Alter Reality, and Intelligence 3... not 1 or just -, but 3.
"An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of human-like intelligence has a score of at least 3." <- Player's Handbook 3.5. Intelligence 3 is hardly clever (even Thog would be smarter), but he knows what he is capable of, and even animals have the instincts to fight back with what they got or flee to their best ability.
In D&D, a Rast has an Intelligence 3 as well, but it can still use it's Supernatural attacks. Alter Reality is also a Supernatural Ability. To use Gate, it could be as simple as "me hurt, me want friend/help!". Sure, I will agree that Azathoth is not the kind that will plot and have contingencies for his contengiences, but even he can think "me hurt you now!" and Alter Reality an Energy Drain (or whatever else you want).

[Morithias]

Look just give me the experience values for a level 50 creature, so I can crunch some numbers. I don't care at this point and neither does he.

Not to mention the PC also has alter reality at this point in the game.

[Kerim]

Also, if the creature tries to directly alter him with a wish or alter reality, he'll have to get past his insane saves.

But yeah, we are basically screwing around, and doing some 'PC-wanking' so to speak, although, of course, there's still roleplay.

Basically, most of his stats top those of the elder god, and due to the rules we're using which make it so that at a certain point epic level warriors will no longer hit level 1 commoners, it means that it's rather unlikely that he'll win, especially considering he's also got 25 Regeneration of his own, which means that even things such as Apocalypse from the Sky, should it get past his spell resistance, will not do all too lasting damage.

So yes, if you put together the general stats and abilities of the two, and the intelligence of the two, it's very much possible that my character would win such a battle. I mean, I'm not planning to go after the guy, he's never done anything against me, but yes, he could kick the ass of most of the general gods.

Mainly because, while charisma doesn't look powerful, it means that it's got a lot of boosts, and a lot of ways to apply it to different stuff than it was meant for.

[Vanitas]

Also, if the creature tries to directly alter him with a wish or alter reality, he'll have to get past his insane saves.

But yeah, we are basically screwing around, and doing some 'PC-wanking' so to speak, although, of course, there's still roleplay.

Basically, most of his stats top those of the elder god, and due to the rules we're using which make it so that at a certain point epic level warriors will no longer hit level 1 commoners, it means that it's rather unlikely that he'll win, especially considering he's also got 25 Regeneration of his own, which means that even things such as Apocalypse from the Sky, should it get past his spell resistance, will not do all too lasting damage.

So yes, if you put together the general stats and abilities of the two, and the intelligence of the two, it's very much possible that my character would win such a battle. I mean, I'm not planning to go after the guy, he's never done anything against me, but yes, he could kick the ass of most of the general gods.

Mainly because, while charisma doesn't look powerful, it means that it's got a lot of boosts, and a lot of ways to apply it to different stuff than it was meant for.

Blasphemy/Holy Word still kills him. No attack roll, no save, no spell resistance, just death.
Thanks to inccubus' evil subtype, he's vulnerable to Holy Word even if he is good aligned.
Alternate Reality -> Holy Word -> gg

[Lord Raziere]

Ok, I think I'll try giving you the exp, Morithias.

ok what I've looked up, says that basically the exp reward would be double the exp reward of a cr 48 monster. which would be double of Cr 46, which would be double of Cr4 and so on.

so!

I'm going to start with the exp reward for a level 19 killing a level 20, then double it thirty times, or, basically, multiply it by 60, because 2 x 30 = 60

8550 x 60 = 513000

keep in mind this was gotten using this page
so it might not be accurate to 3.5.

I'll have to hunt for more sources of info on that...

[Vanitas]

Ok, I think I'll try giving you the exp, Morithias.

ok what I've looked up, says that basically the exp reward would be double the exp reward of a cr 48 monster. which would be double of Cr 46, which would be double of Cr4 and so on.

so!

I'm going to start with the exp reward for a level 19 killing a level 20, then double it thirty times, or, basically, multiply it by 60, because 2 x 30 = 60

8550 x 60 = 513000

keep in mind this was gotten using this page
so it might not be accurate to 3.5.

I'll have to hunt for more sources of info on that...

Btw, Deities & Demigods has some specific rules regarding deities and XP. It's basically "gain a level even if you're around them".

[Morithias]

Ok, I think I'll try giving you the exp, Morithias.

ok what I've looked up, says that basically the exp reward would be double the exp reward of a cr 48 monster. which would be double of Cr 46, which would be double of Cr4 and so on.

so!

I'm going to start with the exp reward for a level 19 killing a level 20, then double it thirty times, or, basically, multiply it by 60, because 2 x 30 = 60

8550 x 60 = 513000

keep in mind this was gotten using this page
so it might not be accurate to 3.5.

I'll have to hunt for more sources of info on that...

Wouldn't doubled 30 times be 8550 * 2 ^ 30?

[Lord Raziere]

*shrug* who cares? he is probably getting enough levels that it doesn't matter at this point.

ok, I've looked up another page that is more obviously 3.5, but with similar math:

310,000 x 60 = 186,000,00 exp.

now thats a lot! I think this will serve you well.

Edit: frack! your right.

unfortunately my calculator doesn't have the powers *sweatdrop*

lesse....2^30 power.... would be 1073741824! thank you google!

so 8550 x 1073741824 = 9.1804926e+12!

and 310,000 x 1073741824 = 3.3285997e+14!

basically your experience points are in exponential notation. I think that means he wins the game.

[Morithias]

Yeah the numbers are too high for me to do what I was planning. I will have to improvise again. God dammit.

[Hamste]

Actually they get no exp...if you kill a creature more than 8 CR above you it is assumed to be a fluke (or that someone made a mistake) by the D&D rules in the DMG. Missed this is Pathfinder, they probably have a similar rule somewhere though

[hymer]

Is PF without the rule that you can't get more XP in one helping than would allow you to go to one XP short of going up two levels?

Actually they get no exp...if you kill a creature more than 8 CR above you it is assumed to be a fluke (or that someone made a mistake) by the D&D rules in the DMG. Missed this is Pathfinder, they probably have a similar rule somewhere though

In my DMG it says that the DM in such cases need to think carefully (due to something weird going on) rather than take the number off a table.