OOTS #G003 - The Discussion Thread

[Dr. Gamera]

Issue #3 of Gygax magazine is out. (This time, I got my print copy before any indication of a PDF copy.)

Issue #3 includes OOTS #G003, "Reboot to the Face". Amusing, shatters the fourth wall, and finallly, the answer to the following question is revealed: "Has the Giant always drawn Vaarsuvius as a male, or has the Giant always drawn Vaarsuvius as a female?"

(Spoiler for OOTS #G003, but not really for the main OOTS comic.)

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As of OOTS #G003, we know the answer to be "neither". But we don't know which gender Vaarsuvius is in the main OOTS comic. In mathematical terms, it's an existence proof, not a constructive proof.

Here's a link to the thread for OOTS #G002, "Wandering Mommies and Daddies". The continuity of OOTS #G003 is very much directly after OOTS #G002, and OOTS #G003 directly addresses the continuity vis-a-vis the main OOTS comic.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Hmm, the pdf isn't on DriveThru, which is where I normally buy it from. Maybe after the weekend.

[Ramien]

Just got mine in the mail yesterday. It's nice to see that the more things change, the more things stay the same...

[DaggerPen]

Hmm, the pdf isn't on DriveThru, which is where I normally buy it from. Maybe after the weekend.

Can I have the link to this, by the way? I honestly have no idea where to find these issues.

[Ramien]

Can I have the link to this, by the way? I honestly have no idea where to find these issues.

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse...turers_id=5203

[DaggerPen]

Thank you!

[Sunken Valley]

Why does this thing have zero publicity? It's like Rich is ashamed of it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think it gets mentioned in his Twitter feed. I don't have the time to keep up with Twitter though, so that's just a guess.

[Ramien]

Why does this thing have zero publicity? It's like Rich is ashamed of it.

It got linked to in the 10th anniversary post, if nothing else.

[Porthos]

Got mine in the mail today.

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You know, I thot V did look slightly different in this update.

Ah, the power of suggestion.

[BirdHarvester]

The pdf is finally available for purchase on drivethrustuff.com. I just bought mine and figured people might want to know. It helps satisfy my OOTS cravings as I wait for the next comic.

[DaggerPen]

Woo! Thanks!

Finally got my hands on it, and as a DC comics fan with some serious qualms with the reboot, I have to say, I laughed.

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"I think my long-established harmonious marriage has been retroactively abolished so it never happened," heh.

[Grey Watcher]

Got mine in the mail today.

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You know, I thot V did look slightly different in this update.

Ah, the power of suggestion.

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Actually, to me V looks consistent with the previous two Gygax Magazine strips, but there's a definite change in the way the hair is drawn from the main continuity and Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails. It's enough that, while I've always thought of V as male, the Gygax Magazine art definitely gives off a more feminine vibe to me. And given that V just stated that his gender has changed from the main continuity....

[Porthos]

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Actually, to me V looks consistent with the previous two Gygax Magazine strips, but there's a definite change in the way the hair is drawn from the main continuity and Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails. It's enough that, while I've always thought of V as male, the Gygax Magazine art definitely gives off a more feminine vibe to me. And given that V just stated that his gender has changed from the main continuity....

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To be fair, I didn't go back and check the other GM strips to do a cross-reference. It's just when the statement was made it suddenly struck me that V looked slightly different.

As I said, I chalked it up to the power of suggestion, but I suspect you're on to something here.

[DaggerPen]

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To be fair, I didn't go back and check the other GM strips to do a cross-reference. It's just when the statement was made it suddenly struck me that V looked slightly different.

As I said, I chalked it up to the power of suggestion, but I suspect you're on to something here.

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I think it's probably just a side effect of designs closer to the original designs being drawn with Rich's fancy new art skills; while there are some outfit changes (ex., Haley's armor now covering her stomach), and while Elan has his Dashing Swordsman clothes and all, I think V's original hairstyle just looks more feminine in this style. Rich may be making a bit more of an effort to make vir look ambiguous, too.

Anyway, if Giant WERE trying to make V look more feminine, I'd honestly take it as more of an indication that V was male here than anything else, because that's the type of thing he'd do.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So true, and it isn't even a spoiler.

[SavageWombat]

I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't the only one who saw the absolutely vicious digs at the comic industry in this strip.

[Sir_Leorik]

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I know Rich probably meant this line as a knock against DC Comics, but when Elan says

"Only if the kids who read our old adventures grow up to take control of the industry. Then they'll reboot us again to match their memories",

it sounds ironic when that line is being published in an old-school RPG magazine published by Luke and Ernie Gygax.

Also I love how the details that have never been revealed in the online strip (V's gender, Belkar's backstory) are completely changed in the "reboot".

[Ramien]

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I know Rich probably meant this line as a knock against DC Comics, but when Elan says

"Only if the kids who read our old adventures grow up to take control of the industry. Then they'll reboot us again to match their memories",

it sounds ironic when that line is being published in an old-school RPG magazine published by Luke and Ernie Gygax.

Also I love how the details that have never been revealed in the online strip (V's gender, Belkar's backstory) are completely changed in the "reboot".

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I don't think it was just a dig at DC, because Marvel's been going down that same path, just with less 'global' reboots and more on an individual basis. Look at Jean Grey, for example, or Spider-Man after Joe Quesada got his hands on the webslinger.

On the other hand... V's single with no regrets about the breakup, so Belkar has a chance now!

[DaggerPen]

I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't the only one who saw the absolutely vicious digs at the comic industry in this strip.

Speaking as a deeply disgruntled DC fan, you were definitely not.

[Sir_Leorik]

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I don't think it was just a dig at DC, because Marvel's been going down that same path, just with less 'global' reboots and more on an individual basis. Look at Jean Grey, for example, or Spider-Man after Joe Quesada got his hands on the webslinger.

On the other hand... V's single with no regrets about the breakup, so Belkar has a chance now!

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I think that DC is far more guilty of this sort of behavior than Marvel is. For all my gripes about the way Brian Bendis writes dialogue, his love for characters like Luke Cage is genuine, but he hasn't tried to force them back to their roots. Rather than reverting Luke back to his Power Man days, Bendis took the character in a brand new direction, having him join the Avengers, marry Mary Sue Jessica Jones and be a bad-a$$ character, while doing something new. The same goes for Dan Slott on "Amazing Spider-Man", where he took sad-sack Peter Parker to his lowest point (fired as his job as photographer for Mayor J. Jonah Jameson) and turned him into a research scientist at a start-up company, where Peter turned the inventions he used to fight crime into medical devices, consumer electronics and other interesting products. Then Doc Ock stole Peter's life. Bet ya didn't see that coming, huh?

Meanwhile, at DC, Geoff Johns is single-handedly responsible for sidelining characters like Kyle Rayner and Wally West, legacy heroes who earned the affection of fans during the 1990's, while shoehorning the heroes they replaced back into continuity. He rewrote Superboy's origin, forcing his head-canon about who donated Connor's human DNA, changing the donor from Project Cadmus' crooked director to Lex Luthor (who was masquerading as Lex Luthor Jr. at the time Superboy was created by Project Cadmus, and took steps to recover Superman's body from Cadmus to keep him from being cloned!). Geoff Johns has never met a piece of post-Crisis continuty he didn't want reverted back to the Bronze Age status quo, and now he's become Dan DiDio's hitman when it comes to reboots. If the nu52 doesn't increase sales, DiDio will order another reboot, and another and another.

Meanwhile, at the House of Ideas, they have good ideas ("Superior Spider-Man") and bad ideas ("Avengers Arena"), but they aren't rehashing every single idea from the last fifty-odd years. Marvel is still capable of entertaining me; I can no longer say the same for DC.

As for Gygaxian!Belkar and Gygaxian!V, won't that be awkward, now that V's gender has changed, and Belkar's childhood traumas have changed, given him different fetishes?

Speaking as a deeply disgruntled DC fan, you were definitely not.

Add me to the list of deeply disgruntled DC fans. The nu52 is full of the worst problems from the '90s, the continuity makes no sense, and worst of all it's not a fun universe to live in. When the Marvel Universe, with Sentinels, anti-Mutant bigots, Mutant terrorists, Atlantean invasions, Thanos casually wiping out half the lifeforms in the universe and the Moleman causing traffic delays in front of the Baxter Building every time Giganto pops up, is a more pleasant universe to live in than one with Superman in it, something has seriously gone off the rails. Manhattan may get trashed once a week in the Marvel Universe, but the Avengers, the FF or the X-Men will save the day, and Damage Control will show up by 5:00 PM to clean everything up, so nobody has to miss work in the morning. Can the nu52 Justice League make that guarantee? I don't think so!

[DaggerPen]

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As for Gygaxian!Belkar and Gygaxian!V, won't that be awkward, now that V's gender has changed, and Belkar's childhood traumas have changed, given him different fetishes?

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Ah, but as long as Belkar is still a gourmet chef, V's love of bakers may still save the day.

Add me to the list of deeply disgruntled DC fans. The nu52 is full of the worst problems from the '90s, the continuity makes no sense, and worst of all it's not a fun universe to live in. When the Marvel Universe, with Sentinels, anti-Mutant bigots, Mutant terrorists, Atlantean invasions, Thanos casually wiping out half the lifeforms in the universe and the Moleman causing traffic delays in front of the Baxter Building every time Giganto pops up, is a more pleasant universe to live in than one with Superman in it, something has seriously gone off the rails. Manhattan may get trashed once a week in the Marvel Universe, but the Avengers, the FF or the X-Men will save the day, and Damage Control will show up by 5:00 PM to clean everything up, so nobody has to miss work in the morning. Can the nu52 Justice League make that guarantee? I don't think so!

You and I seem to have similar opinions regarding DC, and I'm curious whether you also miss Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown and Barbara Gordon as Oracle instead of whatever they're doing with her as Batgirl now. (I also really miss the old Arrow family, too... and Superman and Lois being married... and Superman and Wonder Woman not having any romantic interest in each other whatsoever... and superheroes being allowed to get married, period... and the Amazons not kidnapping sailors impregnating themselves, killing the sailors, and having killed any male children before Hephestus started taking them in... and Wonder Woman not having a father... and the universe not generally dedicating itself to being crushingly depressing... and - I'll shut up now.)

And yes, I know that Stephanie's coming back, I was at the mic in the panel when it was announced. But after they removed her as Nightwing in Smallville and literally recolored her in a cameo in Li'l Gotham, it was a long time coming.

[Sir_Leorik]

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Ah, but as long as Belkar is still a gourmet chef, V's love of bakers may still save the day.

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True, but if V's gender has changed a certain way, will Belkar be willing to make the slash fans happy? And if V's gender has changed a certain way, would V's courting of Belkar upset the slash fans? Those slash fellas are an ornery bunch, and V and Belkar could cause lots of angry letters to "Gygaxian Magazine"!

You and I seem to have similar opinions regarding DC, and I'm curious whether you also miss Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown and Barbara Gordon as Oracle instead of whatever they're doing with her as Batgirl now. (I also really miss the old Arrow family, too... and Superman and Lois being married... and Superman and Wonder Woman not having any romantic interest in each other whatsoever... and superheroes being allowed to get married, period... and the Amazons not kidnapping sailors impregnating themselves, killing the sailors, and having killed any male children before Hephestus started taking them in... and Wonder Woman not having a father... and the universe not generally dedicating itself to being crushingly depressing... and - I'll shut up now.)

And yes, I know that Stephanie's coming back, I was at the mic in the panel when it was announced. But after they removed her as Nightwing in Smallville and literally recolored her in a cameo in Li'l Gotham, it was a long time coming.

My complaints begin with the lack of narrative cohesion between the various books, and work their way down. The writers had barely any notice that a reboot was coming, unlike in 1985-86, when everyone at DC editorial were making plans for the end of "Crisis on Infinite Earths". There were too many titles launched, several with awful artwork due to the rushed deadlines. Batman's continuity makes no sense; if he's only been Batman for six or seven years, how has Bruce Wayne had three two Robins, and was able to father Damien? Why was Mr. Freeze's backstory changed? Why was Harley Quinn turned from a tragic obsessive to a stripper? Why did the Joker audition for "Face-Off"?

I liked Grant Morrison's new take on Superman's origin in "Action Comics", but the problem is that there was no collaboration between Morrison and George Perez, who was writing "Superman", nor did Geoff Johns collaborate with Morrison or Perez, or any of the Batman writers. Johns' "Aquaman" is a disgrace. I was a long-time fan of Peter David's "Aquaman" book, and PAD showed how to use Aquaman in new ways, which Morrison and Mark Waid imitated in "JLA".

I'll be honest that I'm not the biggest "Teen Titan" fan in the world, but the wiping away of all past Teen Titan teams is a bit of an insult to Perez and Marv Wolfman, and everyone else who's worked on the book. I'm a big Legion of Superheroes fan, and while Paul Levitz' book was okay, "Legion Lost" was just awful. What they did to Gates, one of the three non-humans on the team, is an atrocity, especially since it was done for shock value. Gates' apparently died in the first issue of "Legion Lost" when the team's Time Capsule exploded. He was later revealed to have teleported away, but was captured and subjected to a virus which warped his insectoid appearance.

I liked "Demon Knights" and "Animal Man", but with the price increases, and the disgust I felt with many of DC's changes and their attitude to customers, I started dumping books.

Regarding Wonder Woman, the irony is that I don't mind her having a father, but I think they dropped the ball by making her Zeus' bastard daughter. There was a better option: making her the daughter of Herakles, conceived when Herakles visited the Amazons to steal the Girdle of Hypolita as part of his Twelve Labors. In Marvel's "Incredible Hercules" series, Herc tells his sidekick Amadeus Cho about how he wooed Hypolita, and they enjoyed a night of passion, before Herc fled with the Girdle in one hand, his tunic in the other, chased by a horde of Amazons.

Diana could have been conceived in the same way, and out of shame at being taken advantage of by Herakles (who was much more brutal in the George Perez and John Byrne stories from the post-Crisis continuity, than the Avengers' lovable goof-ball Herc is) and sought to leave the child to die. Hera, Athena and Aphrodite appeared to Hypolita, and told her to give them the child whom they turned to clay, until the day Hypolita's heart yearned for a daughter. They also blessed Diana with beauty, virtue and wisdom, and she gains her strength, stamina, and speed from her father. This way Diana's connection to her mother is preserved, and she can learn the truth about Herakles and he can become a major member of her Rogues' Gallery, or they can join forces to battle Ares or Circe.

Otherwise, I enjoy the idea that Wonder Woman is more closely tied to Greek mythology. That way she represents the fantastic and magical, Superman represents science-fiction, and Batman represents the old pulp heroes that inspired Bill Finger and Bob Kane, like the Shadow or Zorro. That way each of the "Trinity" of heroes who headline the Justice League represent one of the three genres that every DC hero embodies.

Any thoughts?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Makes more sense than anything coming out of the Executive Editor offices.

[DaggerPen]

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True, but if V's gender has changed a certain way, will Belkar be willing to make the slash fans happy? And if V's gender has changed a certain way, would V's courting of Belkar upset the slash fans? Those slash fellas are an ornery bunch, and V and Belkar could cause lots of angry letters to "Gygaxian Magazine"!

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I think the real question is, with how much Miko already divided the fanbase, what type of uproar will the upcoming Miko/Vaarsuvius/Belkar love triangle create?

Also, I like how you say slash fellas like the vast majority of us aren't female. :P

My complaints begin with the lack of narrative cohesion between the various books, and work their way down. The writers had barely any notice that a reboot was coming, unlike in 1985-86, when everyone at DC editorial were making plans for the end of "Crisis on Infinite Earths". There were too many titles launched, several with awful artwork due to the rushed deadlines. Batman's continuity makes no sense; if he's only been Batman for six or seven years, how has Bruce Wayne had three two Robins, and was able to father Damien? Why was Mr. Freeze's backstory changed? Why was Harley Quinn turned from a tragic obsessive to a stripper? Why did the Joker audition for "Face-Off"?

Yeah, the whole "we sat down and wrote out a cohesive timeline well before the reboot" line is total BS. DC wasn't exactly a shining pinnacle of internal coherency and writer communication before the reboot, but things like the Tim Drake Robin debacle just really take the cake. There is clearly almost NO communication happening between writers, excepting Snyder's apprenticeship program deal, and stuff like the Batwoman debacle show that editorial isn't any better at communicating, either with different levels of editorial or with the writers themselves, given that writers have been repeatedly asked to make eleventh hour changes to plotlines that had been approved months or even over a year in advance, despite Didio promising not to do so.

I'll be honest that I'm not the biggest "Teen Titan" fan in the world, but the wiping away of all past Teen Titan teams is a bit of an insult to Perez and Marv Wolfman, and everyone else who's worked on the book. I'm a big Legion of Superheroes fan, and while Paul Levitz' book was okay, "Legion Lost" was just awful. What they did to Gates, one of the three non-humans on the team, is an atrocity, especially since it was done for shock value. Gates' apparently died in the first issue of "Legion Lost" when the team's Time Capsule exploded. He was later revealed to have teleported away, but was captured and subjected to a virus which warped his insectoid appearance.

Honestly, I'm not even touching New 52 Teen Titans - as a Jason Todd fan, I've already seen how absolutely awful Scott Lobdell's writing is, and I have no interest in subjecting myself to more of it. Still, the role of Wally West and Donna Troy, as well as the original Teen Titans, in comic book history is huge, and just wiping that all away is definitely a slap in the face to Perez and Wolfman. Not to mention, it's pretty clear that this is yet another massive continuity change that writers were informed about well after the reboot started, given references to the old Teen Titans team in early issues of the Nu52. I'm afraid I don't know much about LOSH, but I'm sorry to hear that it's been such a mess.

I liked "Demon Knights" and "Animal Man", but with the price increases, and the disgust I felt with many of DC's changes and their attitude to customers, I started dumping books.

Seriously. So much for drawing the line at $3.99, especially for books that wouldn't even be worth $0.99 (there are very few New 52 books I have purchased and not regretted buying, though there aren't many New 52 books I've purchased anyway - I went from buying maybe 10 titles before the reboot to buying one immediately after the reboot, to buying none of the New 52 line a few months after I finally realized RHATO wasn't going to stop sucking, though I have been enjoying Li'l Gotham, largely because it isn't in the frelling New 52.)

Regarding Wonder Woman, the irony is that I don't mind her having a father, but I think they dropped the ball by making her Zeus' bastard daughter. There was a better option: making her the daughter of Herakles, conceived when Herakles visited the Amazons to steal the Girdle of Hypolita as part of his Twelve Labors. In Marvel's "Incredible Hercules" series, Herc tells his sidekick Amadeus Cho about how he wooed Hypolita, and they enjoyed a night of passion, before Herc fled with the Girdle in one hand, his tunic in the other, chased by a horde of Amazons.

Diana could have been conceived in the same way, and out of shame at being taken advantage of by Herakles (who was much more brutal in the George Perez and John Byrne stories from the post-Crisis continuity, than the Avengers' lovable goof-ball Herc is) and sought to leave the child to die. Hera, Athena and Aphrodite appeared to Hypolita, and told her to give them the child whom they turned to clay, until the day Hypolita's heart yearned for a daughter. They also blessed Diana with beauty, virtue and wisdom, and she gains her strength, stamina, and speed from her father. This way Diana's connection to her mother is preserved, and she can learn the truth about Herakles and he can become a major member of her Rogues' Gallery, or they can join forces to battle Ares or Circe.

Otherwise, I enjoy the idea that Wonder Woman is more closely tied to Greek mythology. That way she represents the fantastic and magical, Superman represents science-fiction, and Batman represents the old pulp heroes that inspired Bill Finger and Bob Kane, like the Shadow or Zorro. That way each of the "Trinity" of heroes who headline the Justice League represent one of the three genres that every DC hero embodies.

I'm fine with the idea of tying Wonder Woman more into Greek myth, but the problem is that a lot of Greek myth is really full of misogyny, whereas Wonder Woman is kind of supposed to be a feminist icon. I would have really enjoyed some reinterpretations of Greek mythology through that lens, but instead the Amazons just went full-out babykiller.

[Sir_Leorik]

Makes more sense than anything coming out of the Executive Editor offices.

Thanks! Herakles was a recurring villain in the "Wonder Woman" books. In Perez' run he tried to enslave the Amazons, and during Byrne's run he was revealed to be imprisoned beneath Themyscira.

It seems so odd to have a Wonder Woman who doesn't cry out "Great Hera!", and that's pretty much the current state. Diana and Hera are enemies now. Otherwise I really liked that book.

[DaggerPen]

Thanks! Herakles was a recurring villain in the "Wonder Woman" books. In Perez' run he tried to enslave the Amazons, and during Byrne's run he was revealed to be imprisoned beneath Themyscira.

It seems so odd to have a Wonder Woman who doesn't cry out "Great Hera!", and that's pretty much the current state. Diana and Hera are enemies now. Otherwise I really liked that book.

Personally, I miss Suffering Sappho. :P

[Sir_Leorik]

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I think the real question is, with how much Miko already divided the fanbase, what type of uproar will the upcoming Miko/Vaarsuvius/Belkar love triangle create?

Also, I like how you say slash fellas like the vast majority of us aren't female. :P

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Hey, I'm tryin' not to judge! The real catastrophe will be with people trying to ship Elan with his twin sister Lena, leader of the Linear Gang. Despite Lena being in a committed relationship with Sabino the Incubus, to boot! After the Reboot, Thog is even dumber than ever, and Zz'Ditri belongs to a different Drow House.

Yeah, the whole "we sat down and wrote out a cohesive timeline well before the reboot" line is total BS. DC wasn't exactly a shining pinnacle of internal coherency and writer communication before the reboot, but things like the Tim Drake Robin debacle just really take the cake. There is clearly almost NO communication happening between writers, excepting Snyder's apprenticeship program deal, and stuff like the Batwoman debacle show that editorial isn't any better at communicating, either with different levels of editorial or with the writers themselves, given that writers have been repeatedly asked to make eleventh hour changes to plotlines that had been approved months or even over a year in advance, despite Didio promising not to do so.

DC's current editorial staff is functioning the way Marvel was circa 1995-6, back when Bob Harras was the EIC. Which is no surprise, since Bob Harras is the EIC. I know that Joe Quesada gets a lot of grief thrown his way for "One More Day" and "One Moment In Time" (a lot of it deserved), but I feel that he runs a very tight ship at Marvel. I'd prefer if they did fewer cross-overs, but that's because I prefer cross-over to be something special. When Marvel does one right, like "House of M" or "Siege", they hit them out of the park. I just wish they let their "new status quo" last more than eight months.

A good example is the "Dark Reign" storyline, where Norman Osborne, the friggin' Green Goblin himself, is promoted from head of the Thunderbolts to director of National Security, after he makes a kill shot on the Skrull Queen and wins public acclaim. "Dark Reign" didn't run longer than it needed to, affected the status quo of the Avengers, Spider-Man and the X-Men, and created a new team, of "Dark Avengers" for Osborne to lead. Osborne might have succeeded where no villain but Dr. Doom or Baron Zemo has succeeded before, had it not been for Loki whispering in Osborne's ear.

By contrast, DC's villains rarely make such bold moves, with the notable exceptions of Lex Luthor, Ra's al-Ghul and Vandal Savage. DC's villains are for the most part not very complicated, again with notable exceptions. They're supposed to be dark contrasts to very bright heroes, like Superman, Wonder Woman or even Batman. Right now at Marvel, Doctor Octopus has stolen Spider-Man's body, but he's decided to become a better, "superior" Spider-Man to Peter Parker. But he can't be superior to Peter in one way: morally. By contrast, in "All-Star Superman", when Lex Luthor gains Superman's powers for a short time, he sees the world from Superman's perspective, and he physically can't be a villain any more. That's the difference between Superman and Spider-Man (at least according to Grant Morrison and Dan Slott, respectively, ).

That's been tossed away by DC. Don't get me wrong, I liked Morrison's new take on Superman in "Action Comics", but every other appearance of the nu52 Superman irks me on some level.

Honestly, I'm not even touching New 52 Teen Titans - as a Jason Todd fan, I've already seen how absolutely awful Scott Lobdell's writing is, and I have no interest in subjecting myself to more of it. Still, the role of Wally West and Donna Troy, as well as the original Teen Titans, in comic book history is huge, and just wiping that all away is definitely a slap in the face to Perez and Wolfman. Not to mention, it's pretty clear that this is yet another massive continuity change that writers were informed about well after the reboot started, given references to the old Teen Titans team in early issues of the Nu52. I'm afraid I don't know much about LOSH, but I'm sorry to hear that it's been such a mess.

The main "Legion of Superheroes" book, which takes place in the 31st Century and is mostly untouched by the nu52, is much better than "Legion Lost". They have different writers, and since the "Legion Lost" crew are stuck in the 21st century and the Time Trapper is keeping them from being rescued, those Legionnaires stuck in the past will continue to muddle along.

I'm fine with the idea of tying Wonder Woman more into Greek myth, but the problem is that a lot of Greek myth is really full of misogyny, whereas Wonder Woman is kind of supposed to be a feminist icon. I would have really enjoyed some reinterpretations of Greek mythology through that lens, but instead the Amazons just went full-out babykiller.

I think George Perez tried to find a good middle ground between the actual Greek myths, which as you said are not exactly friendly to women (or children) and the idealized Amazons that William Moulton Marston invented. It could be worse, the Amazons could be burning one of their breasts off to improve their aim.

[Sir_Leorik]

Personally, I miss Suffering Sappho. :P

I don't think the editors will let that one back in.

Though the editors at Marvel let Greg Pak and Fred van Lente include a version of the Ode to Sappho, as rewritten by a horny Amadeus Cho, in one issue of "Incredible Hercules".

EDIT: I will add that at Herc's funeral, Northstar was pretty overcome with grief. The two of them were close for a while, before Herc moved on to his next conquest.

[DaggerPen]

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Hey, I'm tryin' not to judge! The real catastrophe will be with people trying to ship Elan with his twin sister Lena, leader of the Linear Gang. Despite Lena being in a committed relationship with Sabino the Incubus, to boot! After the Reboot, Thog is even dumber than ever, and Zz'Ditri belongs to a different Drow House.

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One looks forward to the adventures of Lena in Cliffport with the Girdle of Masculinity-Femininity, though.

DC's current editorial staff is functioning the way Marvel was circa 1995-6, back when Bob Harras was the EIC. Which is no surprise, since Bob Harras is the EIC.

Exactly! Didio's got a lot of his own micromanaging problems, but Harras almost drove Marvel into the ground, and now he's over at DC doing the exact same thing. Can we maybe get some pattern recognition going on here?

By contrast, DC's villains rarely make such bold moves, with the notable exceptions of Lex Luthor, Ra's al-Ghul and Vandal Savage. DC's villains are for the most part not very complicated, again with notable exceptions. They're supposed to be dark contrasts to very bright heroes, like Superman, Wonder Woman or even Batman. Right now at Marvel, Doctor Octopus has stolen Spider-Man's body, but he's decided to become a better, "superior" Spider-Man to Peter Parker. But he can't be superior to Peter in one way: morally. By contrast, in "All-Star Superman", when Lex Luthor gains Superman's powers for a short time, he sees the world from Superman's perspective, and he physically can't be a villain any more. That's the difference between Superman and Spider-Man (at least according to Grant Morrison and Dan Slott, respectively, ).

That's been tossed away by DC. Don't get me wrong, I liked Morrison's new take on Superman in "Action Comics", but every other appearance of the nu52 Superman irks me on some level.

I am really tired of them trying to de-boy-scout Superman. It's possible to do complex storylines and deal with gray areas without turning Superman into a colossal jerk who heat visions off Dr. Light's face over a misunderstanding.

The main "Legion of Superheroes" book, which takes place in the 31st Century and is mostly untouched by the nu52, is much better than "Legion Lost". They have different writers, and since the "Legion Lost" crew are stuck in the 21st century and the Time Trapper is keeping them from being rescued, those Legionnaires stuck in the past will continue to muddle along.

Aha. One can only hope that whatever happens in Legion Lost will be swiftly retconned by the main LOSH book upon completion of the plotlines, then.

I think George Perez tried to find a good middle ground between the actual Greek myths, which as you said are not exactly friendly to women (or children) and the idealized Amazons that William Moulton Marston invented. It could be worse, the Amazons could be burning one of their breasts off to improve their aim.

I'm actually working my way through Perez's Wonder Woman right now, and it's probably my favorite version of Wonder Woman thus far. Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman run was fantastic, and will likely remain my favorite run even after I finish with Perez, but Perez seems to do a lot of interesting things with the mythology, and I'd love to see his approach brought back.

And that would not be a particularly ideal return to mythology, no.