afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread IV

[Darkz0r]

Long time reader of your threads, love all the info, I wish everything was compiled into the definitive afroakuma tome of awesomeness of the planes. :D Work of a lifetime!
Too many sources for planar related stuff nowdays.


I'd like your opinion on something, or maybe its a question? Not sure if it fits the thread but here we go :

My macro plot idea is that there is another "whole cosmology" (as in, every "default plane", let's call it cosmology B) somewhere else. This other cosmology is in ruins everywhere and deities are losing powers as a plane wide war spreads and cull their followers.
The cosmology B deities are aware of planar outpockets that are erratic but sometimes connect to cosmology A (where PCs are atm), cosmology A deities lost this knowledge to the millenia as the primes/overdeities/or what? made a deal aons ago with cosmology B to seal the outpockets and leave each other alone.

Considering that, a pantheon of deities decide to invade cosmology A initially through these outpockets and later maybe creating permanent planar connections which were sealed away, seeking to alter A's cosmology as establish themselves and regain their power through new followers.

Considering that and your planar knowledge, would you say its remotely possible? Or too far fetched? Anything I could use to fluff it better?
I know as a DM I can do w/e, but I'd like to keep it believable and within D&D planar mechanics.

Atm players are level 3-4 and will get involved in a xorvintaal game across the planes after a few more levels, which will then make them travel through planes collecting a few relics while they acquire more levels, knowledge of this macro plot and more items.

Also anything you'd recommend me to read besides basic 3.5/3.0 planar books?

Thanks and sorry for the long post lol.

[afroakuma]

*dives out of way of impending stampede*

What, the stampede of crickets?

I have a question that's a bit hard to phrase.
So we know that baernoloths created both yugoloth's and demodands (only a single baernoloth for the latter). Might the yugoloth's movement to Gehenna be linked in some way to the fact that the other baernoloth-created race is on Carceri? The symmetry is suspicious to me.

Nah, Gehenna was just easy pickings and they wanted to rig up the Tower Arcane early (the Tower of Incarnate Pain is still a work in progress on Carceri).

I mean, what effect does the reinforcing of their undead state have on the liches?

If there was a specific answer you would have gotten it already.

What I meant is specifically natives which would have their own unique subtypes (like how Obyriths have the [Obyrith] subtype).

You mean exemplars etc., and the answer is again yes. Slaad, for instance, form with or without mortal souls. Chaos is fun that way.

What was the "victory" condition for the Law/Chaos war?

Unspecified. Probably total destruction of the other side.

Why did she pull them inside in the first place?

Why does she pull anything in, really? Trophies, basically.

Does Obox-ob have any particular affinity for scorpions above other vermin? His poison turns people into Fiendish Monstrous Scorpions and his FCI entry says:

Nope.

Do most Primes not know

Almost zero Primes have any definitive knowledge regarding gods, the afterlife, the Outer Planes or anything else. EVERYONE INVOLVED IS INTERESTED IN KEEPING IT THAT WAY.

I'm not taking any further questions on the matter.

If not, why don't the gods try and spread this knowledge (good gods have some people turning away from evil and Evil gods have people worshipping them)?

Because there's no point. Lip service isn't worship. Worship is worship. Hey Count, do you like Mountain Dew mixed with yoghurt and curry powder? I will throw you into Hell for all eternity and rip off your toenails with a rusty spoon daily if you say no. So how about that there Mountain Dew mixed with yoghurt and curry powder?

Do people besides the Lady remember Vecna's scheme to take over Sigil? If so, does that mean he's being watched by many beings?

Eh, it's remembered, but the specifics never really stay put since so many versions are told and by definition no other god saw it, so it was of little interest to almost everyone significant.

If a God on some out-of-the-way Prime (lets say one without a lot of off-world God influences) arises with a portfolio that is 'bad' towards other Gods in some way, but sort of makes sense in the context of the Prime they are from; will other Gods in the Outer Planes step up and deal with it in some way (before it grows in power perhaps)?

Gods generally require other gods to adhere to the basic treaties of divine behavior, but I can't think of any such portfolios, really.

'God of Binding'.

See previous thread. Nope.

Alternatively, extended Worship of Far Realms horrors gives birth to a God-ling with interest/abilities to rip holes to that place?

See previous thread. Nope.

[afroakuma]

Considering that and your planar knowledge, would you say its remotely possible? Or too far fetched? Anything I could use to fluff it better?
I know as a DM I can do w/e, but I'd like to keep it believable and within D&D planar mechanics.

Planar metaphysics don't usually get into crossing whole cosmologies, except for the throwaway function of the Plane of Shadow. It's one of those rare cases where in fluff it's as legitimate as you want it to be, since there's neither support nor formal denial in canon.

Also anything you'd recommend me to read besides basic 3.5/3.0 planar books?

Almost anything under the Planescape brand is excellent. I'd check those out.

[Darkz0r]

Planar metaphysics don't usually get into crossing whole cosmologies, except for the throwaway function of the Plane of Shadow. It's one of those rare cases where in fluff it's as legitimate as you want it to be, since there's neither support nor formal denial in canon.



Almost anything under the Planescape brand is excellent. I'd check those out.

Thanks, will do!
I guess Im gonna read Planescape Campaign Setting even though I dont plan on using sigil.

[Naanomi]

See previous thread. Nope.

I'm trying, it's 120+pages; takes some time.

Well, if those are out as 'legitimate portfolios', I'm sure there is something that would universally make Gods angry... I mean Gods with 'destroy everything' get ignored with rolled eyes or locked in Cosmic Prisons depending on their power level.

How about... some high-level guy stands up to a local Fate-Goddess to cheat his destiny with some time-travel. He gets 'cultural hero->God' treatment into a Trickster God with particular portfolio interest in screwing with the Timeline.

Actually I guess that is another question to ask; what (apart from messing with the Far Realm, Binding, ruling Sigil, claiming per-incarnate souls, and trying to destroy all of creation) are portfolios that are either intrinsically forbidden or enough to collectively turn the other Divines against you?

[afroakuma]

Actually I guess that is another question to ask; what (apart from messing with the Far Realm, Binding, ruling Sigil, claiming per-incarnate souls, and trying to destroy all of creation) are portfolios that are either intrinsically forbidden or enough to collectively turn the other Divines against you?

Remember, most of those aren't portfolios, since they have no context in mortal life. Pre-incarnate souls is the biggie. Tharizdun is something worse than an omnicidal god; being shackled into a pocket demiplane by a legion of mighty deities has reduced him to the status of an intermediate power - imagine how vast and terrible he would be outside of that prison.

[Naanomi]

Would the corpse of a God that ended up somewhere else besides the Astral Plane end up with any special properties or affect the areas it would rest in?

[Cirrylius]

What exactly does a Vacuum Quasi-Elemental look like?

Found it.

In 2E, they're invisible, with the shape of an amorphous, hollow, rubbery skin.

[Vedhin]

What, the stampede of crickets?

No, the stampede of mute ghosts.

Almost zero Primes have any definitive knowledge regarding gods, the afterlife, the Outer Planes or anything else. EVERYONE INVOLVED IS INTERESTED IN KEEPING IT THAT WAY.

Thus, "Clueless Primes".

[CRtwenty]

Found it.

In 2E, they're invisible, with the shape of an amorphous, hollow, rubbery skin.

~casts See Invisibility~

Spoiler

Show

How horrifying

[enderlord99]

What type of curry powder do you recommend? Thai Yellow might work; I'm not sure yet.

...You were just trying to come up with something that sounded like it would taste [DATA EXPUNGED] weren't you?

[123456789blaaa]

What, the stampede of crickets?
<snip>

I'm suprised at the seeming lack of interest in the game offer. Speaking for myself, while I would love to be player in one of your games, I haven't played in anything in a looong time. I am considerably rusty and haven't ever looked at Maptools. I would slow down the game horribly. There's also the problem of things being very busy for me at this time of year.

Speaking to the other Afro-thread regulars, what's your reason for not jumping at the chance?

<snip>
Almost zero Primes have any definitive knowledge regarding gods, the afterlife, the Outer Planes or anything else. EVERYONE INVOLVED IS INTERESTED IN KEEPING IT THAT WAY.

I'm not taking any further questions on the matter.



Because there's no point. Lip service isn't worship. Worship is worship. Hey Count, do you like Mountain Dew mixed with yoghurt and curry powder? I will throw you into Hell for all eternity and rip off your toenails with a rusty spoon daily if you say no. So how about that there Mountain Dew mixed with yoghurt and curry powder?
<snip>

...yes?

I understand what you mean. However, I didn't mean going to an Good gods realm exclusively but rather, avoiding the Lower Planes in general. A person who would have been Evil will probably at least stop doing Evil acts. They might not go to the Upper Planes but even just going to the Middle Planes and hanging around in general (as opposed to going to a specific divine realm) seems preferable to being tortured for centuries. But I can conjecture on my own as to why gods don't tell them.

If Bahamut represents all metallic dragons and Tiamat represents all chromatic dragons, why are they LG and LE respectively? Metallics and chromatics are not exclusively LG and LE. What's going on here?

Could you do your best to describe Obox-ob personality-wise? I know he's filled with rage and hate over losing his throne and lusts to regain it. Other than that though, I'm not sure how I would potray him (say, if I were a DM and had him interact with the PC's).

You said previously that Obox-ob "likes peons as much as the next demon lord, though, and in his weakened state he'll take pretty much anyone". Would this mean that he orders his ekolids to refrain from attacking servents of his when they go to his layer (I recall reading that the ekolids are extremely aggressive and that's why exploration of Zionyn was canceled)?

Would Obox-ob be open to deals and alliances with other entities (I recall that you're not given the chance to ally with him in Savage Tide. You just capture and release a bezerk aspect of him...this may be because no one wants the chance of the obyriths regaining power though)?

I came across an interesting tidbit in this Eberron article:

<snip>
Not all beguilers are spies, and not all develop their gifts as a result of training. In Droaam and the Shadow Marches, a few children spontaneously manifest beguiler talents; traditionally, these gifts are seen as the touch of the Dark Six, and these youths are often claimed by priests and raised to revere the Six. These natural beguilers are known as sheelidar -- "six-fingered hands" -- and a few actually do have an extra digit on hands and feet. While they are taught to use their powers in the service of the Dark Six, sheelidar are not always evil; many simply believe that the Six are wild and primal forces, and that the civilized followers of the Sovereign Host are afraid of the passion and energy of the Six.
<snip>

...are you thinking what I'm thinking? I'm also reminded of the info from Greywiki about how there are legends of Graz'zt visiting witches and sorcerers to grant them spells.

So Death giants (MMIII, page 55) are a race of terribly evil giants that, in order to preserve their empire from destruction, traded the immortal souls of every one of their kind in exchange for unholy power. Any conjecture on what force (or forces) they dealt with?

The MMIII (page 56) also says:

Death giant clerics are very rare and worship dark and alien deities that don’t care if the souls of their followers reach them.

Any conjecture on which dieties the book is talking about? I can think of plenty of alien dieites but none that are connected to the Negative Energy Plane or the undead...

What is the realm of Zionyn like? I know it's full of ekolids (and ekolid cities), Fiendish vermin and verminlike monsters, and seas full of resinous ooze. Is there any more info?

[Fable Wright]

I'm suprised at the seeming lack of interest in the game offer. Speaking for myself, while I would love to be player in one of your games, I haven't played in anything in a looong time. I am considerably rusty and haven't ever looked at Maptools. I would slow down the game horribly. There's also the problem of things being very busy for me at this time of year.

Speaking to the other Afro-thread regulars, what's your reason for not jumping at the chance?

I'm certainly interested in it and already enjoy using maptools to run games. It's just that knowing nothing about starting level or direction the game's heading in and have no idea whether or not I could actually make a proper, rounded character, engaging backstory, and work out a build with no information other than 'it's planejammer,' coupled with the fact that despite this thread, I have probably don't have nearly enough background knowledge about the planes or spelljamming, I'm rather hesitant to speak up.

[123456789blaaa]

I'm certainly interested in it and already enjoy using maptools to run games. It's just that knowing nothing about starting level or direction the game's heading in and have no idea whether or not I could actually make a proper, rounded character, engaging backstory, and work out a build with no information other than 'it's planejammer,' coupled with the fact that despite this thread, I have probably don't have nearly enough background knowledge about the planes or spelljamming, I'm rather hesitant to speak up.

Why not ask about that stuff? I'm fairly certain Afro doesn't expect you to create a build with no information other than 'it's planejammer'. It's a hook you can grab if you want to know more.

[afroakuma]

Would the corpse of a God that ended up somewhere else besides the Astral Plane end up with any special properties or affect the areas it would rest in?

Well, the corpse has to go to the Astral Plane, but pieces removed would certainly have the potential to exhibit strange powers and effects. Of course, that's exactly why the Guardian of Dead Gods is there.

I understand what you mean. However, I didn't mean going to an Good gods realm exclusively but rather, avoiding the Lower Planes in general.

Who's to say what gets you there? You can't specifically say what your fate will be. Alignment is not so obvious as that. Primes have no proof they'll go to any particular fate after death; religious propaganda can only go so far. Remember, an evil person trying to buy their way into Bytopia is still evil and destined for the plane he ultimately belongs to. Like I said: there is no point.

If Bahamut represents all metallic dragons and Tiamat represents all chromatic dragons, why are they LG and LE respectively?

Why wouldn't they be? Not all elves are chaotic good, not all dwarves are lawful good; the dragon deities don't need to be some "average" of the alignments of their followers. Personally it would confuse me more if Bahamut and Tiamat were neutral (whatever) since none of their followers match that alignment at all.

Could you do your best to describe Obox-ob personality-wise?

Obox-ob is one of the least detailed of the major demon lords, as he only achieved his prominence and history in 3.5 and was nothing more than one name in a massive list before that. There is near-nothing I can tell you that isn't in his Demonomicon and FCI entries.

You said previously that Obox-ob "likes peons as much as the next demon lord, though, and in his weakened state he'll take pretty much anyone". Would this mean that he orders his ekolids to refrain from attacking servents of his when they go to his layer

No. If you go to the Abyss, you deserve to die unless you can prove you're scarier than the things wanting to kill you. Peons aren't invited to the big show; they work the local markets.

Would Obox-ob be open to deals and alliances with other entities

Nobody wants him as an ally and he wants nobody.

...are you thinking what I'm thinking? I'm also reminded of the info from Greywiki about how there are legends of Graz'zt visiting witches and sorcerers to grant them spells.

Sure, why not.

So Death giants (MMIII, page 55) are a race of terribly evil giants that, in order to preserve their empire from destruction, traded the immortal souls of every one of their kind in exchange for unholy power. Any conjecture on what force (or forces) they dealt with?

Nope. Could be an Elder Evil or a god of the Negative Energy Plane or some powerful alien entity from the same place; maybe even Tharizdun. Take your pick.

Any conjecture on which dieties the book is talking about? I can think of plenty of alien dieites but none that are connected to the Negative Energy Plane or the undead...

The book suggests that they're not happy about their past association with Dark Force, so it's not like they need to worship gods linked with either the Negative Energy Plane or undead.

What is the realm of Zionyn like? I know it's full of ekolids (and ekolid cities), Fiendish vermin and verminlike monsters, and seas full of resinous ooze. Is there any more info?

No. See above re: Obox-ob.

I'm certainly interested in it and already enjoy using maptools to run games. It's just that knowing nothing about starting level or direction the game's heading in and have no idea whether or not I could actually make a proper, rounded character, engaging backstory, and work out a build with no information other than 'it's planejammer,' coupled with the fact that despite this thread, I have probably don't have nearly enough background knowledge about the planes or spelljamming, I'm rather hesitant to speak up.

You could just send me a PM asking for such specifics.

[Brookshw]

What can you tell me about the Avenger beyond what's in the MoP?

Also can you point me in a direction for info on legendary Spelljammers or any that you'd care to highlight?

[*.*.*.*]

Hello! Can someone give me a run-down of Acheron and the Bladelings who live there? Thank you

[Tragak]

Hello! Can someone give me a run-down of Acheron and the Bladelings who live there? Thank you

Fluff or crunch?

[*.*.*.*]

Fluff or crunch?

fluff info would be wonderful

[afroakuma]

What can you tell me about the Avenger beyond what's in the MoP?

About the what? I see nothing of the kind listed in the Manual of the Planes.

Also can you point me in a direction for info on legendary Spelljammers or any that you'd care to highlight?

The only legendary spelljammer is The Spelljammer; can't think of a particularly useful single source on that, sadly, since the official site is terrible compared to Planewalker. There's little to tell, though. Big ol' manta ray ship goes where it pleases, that's about it.

Hello! Can someone give me a run-down of Acheron and the Bladelings who live there? Thank you

Probably the best single post on the tone of Acheron that I can give you:

Acheron is battle without resolution, law without harmony, order without structure, misery without hope, death without glory, unity without individuality. Acheron is not a plane that hates you; indeed, it is Acheron's utter indifference to you that eventually kills you. Acheron is the grinding monotony of hopelessness, and it is the weary horror of cynicism so great that it consumes morality. The sergeant who grows weary of fighting corruption and embraces bribery goes to Acheron; the office drone who takes out his misery on others by providing them barriers to actual help goes to Acheron. It is the punishment for which there was no crime, the penalty without a violation, the monolithic crushing indifference of Law with no moral compass, of conflict without belief, of tyranny without vanity.

Acheron doesn't hate you.

It wants you to die anyway.

Acheron is one of the mildest of Lower Planes, though that's hardly saying much. A harsh and alien skyscape filled with massive iron cubes greets visitors to Avalas, the first layer of Acheron, which rings with the crash of the mighty cubes and with the battle cries of legions of warriors waging endless and futile battle. The gods of the orcs and goblins have their realms here, gathering armies to hurl against one another ceaselessly.

Little respite is found on Thuldanin, the second layer; here the cubes are scarred and pitted from war and collisions, and the debris of a thousand thousand wars aggregates in the cracks like a fine powder. Thuldanin is a stark and brutal archive of the history of war, and visitors will find themselves becoming preserved as exhibits as well, calcifying and slowly turning to stone from the magical effects of the layer.

Tintibulus, the third layer, has no cubes; geometric solids of all other forms are the landscape here, and the layer is filled with dull ringing that echoes from beyond. All is dust and stone on Tintibulus.

Lastly is the terrible Ocanthus, the dwelling of the bladelings. Pitch-black and cold as a devil's hate, Ocanthus trades the solid masses of its brethren for whirling, razor-sharp shards of ice. The layer has a hypothetical "bottom," an infinitely vast ice sheet where live the bladelings in their one safe respite, Zoronor. The city is protected by a thick mass of wood that deflects the worst of the flying blades.

Bladelings are a loose theocracy, polite enough but isolationist and slow to trust. They are a unique race, not fiendish, whose skin is coated with jagged blades. Effectively nativized to the layer (they were originally immigrants from an unknown source), their city and associated small redoubts remain some of the few safe shelters on Ocanthus.

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Why wouldn't they be? Not all elves are chaotic good, not all dwarves are lawful good; the dragon deities don't need to be some "average" of the alignments of their followers. Personally it would confuse me more if Bahamut and Tiamat were neutral (whatever) since none of their followers match that alignment at all.

Elves do lean towards CG though. Dwarves also lean towards LG. They inherit the tendancies from their racial gods. Say if there was a racial diety specifically for each colour/metal of dragonkind. While there are some Gold dragons that aren't LG, you'd still expect the draconic god of Gold dragons to be LG right? Heck, according to 3.5, True Dragons actually more predisposed towards a particular alignment than elves and dwarves.

Basically, I'm wondering why the Chromatics don't all have a predisposition towards being LE and why Metallics don't all have a predisposition towards being LG. Where did the Chaotic aspect of (for example) the White dragon come from? Why is it even there? Why was Bahamut made LG and Tiamat made LE (in-universe)? Was it chance?

Obox-ob is one of the least detailed of the major demon lords, as he only achieved his prominence and history in 3.5 and was nothing more than one name in a massive list before that. There is near-nothing I can tell you that isn't in his Demonomicon and FCI entries.

Aww .

Any ideas for fleshing him out then? How would you present him in one of your games?

No. If you go to the Abyss, you deserve to die unless you can prove you're scarier than the things wanting to kill you. Peons aren't invited to the big show; they work the local markets.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that cause all the intelligent non-ekolid creatures living on Zionyn to group together in order to survive? The ekolids are numerous, powerful, see all other creatures as incubators for their eggs, and don't attack each other. This combination seems like it would eliminate even powerful small groups and individuals on Zionyn thus necessitating the formation of groups large and powerful enough to repel sadistic ekolids attacks. Am I incorrect here?

If not, does Obox-ob see this potential elimination of non-ekolid assets as simply weeding out the weak ones?

Nobody wants him as an ally and he wants nobody.
<snip>

I'm guessing nobody wants him because he's an obyrith obssessed with regaining his title (and thus shifting power back to the obyriths in general) and because he doesn't want anybody. Why does he want no allies though? And what about Kyuss? Does this mean he would reject Kyuss' offer of alliance immediately? Your previous posts on the subject didn't give that impression...please don't hurt me.

Could you give a list of beings created by the Night Hags (Altraloths, bloodswarms from the FCI, and stitched devils from the MMV for example)?

Also, I found Ssendams theme song.

[afroakuma]

Elves do lean towards CG though. Dwarves also lean towards LG.

More lawful than good, but moving on.

They inherit the tendancies from their racial gods.

From the heads of their racial pantheon, since other members of the pantheon have differing alignments. The head of the draconic pantheon is Io, who is neutral.

Basically, I'm wondering why the Chromatics don't all have a predisposition towards being LE and why Metallics don't all have a predisposition towards being LG.

Then you should have phrased it that way, instead of the much more confusing question you asked.

Any ideas for fleshing him out then? How would you present him in one of your games?

I could probably come up with several ideas, but I have none offhand. I wouldn't use him in a game, he's not very useful in his current state.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that cause all the intelligent non-ekolid creatures living on Zionyn to group together in order to survive?

You're wrong because you ask the bloody wrong questions. Servants of Obox-ob don't go to his layer because they are completely flipping useless there. There is nothing to do there but get in tiffs with the ekolids and/or get eaten by something. Nobody ever bothers attacking that far down, or even adventuring. Pardon me for assuming you meant mortal servants, but even the few demonic agents have better places to be.

The ekolids are numerous

Debatable.

powerful

CR 4 is a joke in the Abyss.

And what about Kyuss? Does this mean he would reject Kyuss' offer of alliance immediately?

Take your pathetic excuse for a worm demigod and die in a fire. Coincidentally, both his likely response and my own highly definitive one.

Kyuss sucks and nobody cares about him on the Planes. The end.

please don't hurt me.

I detect an extreme lack of comprehension on your part.

Could you give a list

No. I don't hunt down lists unless they're easy. That one would require me to investigate the individual fluff entries of dozens of monsters.

[Vedhin]

About the what? I see nothing of the kind listed in the Manual of the Planes.

It's a big ol' Manta ray ship that goes where it pleases on the Elemental Plane of Water.

[Brookshw]

It's a big ol' Manta ray ship that goes where it pleases on the Elemental Plane of Water.

Yup, but the dimensions are too small to be The Spelljammer by a different name though its a curious parallel. Not sure if there's any Canon behind it or possible relation, or just some potential dm plot hook.

Edit: just read this, if its correct maybe a potential spawn?

[Yora]

I heard a gelatinous cube once became a factol. Any knowledge what faction that would have been?

[afroakuma]

It's a big ol' Manta ray ship that goes where it pleases on the Elemental Plane of Water.

Ah, I see, I was looking for a monster entry. What's there is pretty much what there is in terms of information; it's definitely not the Spelljammer, but some connection would not be outside the realm of possibility.

I heard a gelatinous cube once became a factol. Any knowledge what faction that would have been?

Never read that myself, but it sounds like a Xaositect thing to do.

[Lord_Gareth]

You mentioned previously that a layer of Hell would grudgingly accept a ruler who held the position lawfully. Are the other Lawful planes similar, such as Celestia or, say, Arcadia?

[Cirrylius]

Never read that myself, but it sounds like a Xaositect thing to do.

Really? 'Cause it seems like a mindless creature would make a GREAT Cipher

[afroakuma]

You mentioned previously that a layer of Hell would grudgingly accept a ruler who held the position lawfully. Are the other Lawful planes similar, such as Celestia or, say, Arcadia?

Arcadia has no known layer rulers. Celestia's layers are the responsibility of the whole of the Hebdomad; each layer ruler largely just stewards the layer. With no restraining entity like Asmodeus in place to whip the plane into submission, Celestia would not accept an inappropriate ruler on any of its layers.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there any reason to believe that Arcadia could not or will not develop layer-level rulers?