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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Project)

    My project of re/writing fixed-list, thematically focused casters like the beguiler continues to tick along, bringing me face to face with one of the most unbalanced schools of magic: conjuration. It's got summons, it's got teleportation, it's got damage, it's got battlefield control... what it doesn't have is focus. And that's not even getting into the problems with summoning-- to whit, it's waaaay too versatile. Still... there's no problem we can't solve with a little elbow grease ink typing, eh?

    The Conjurer

    HD: d4
    Skills: The Conjurer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis)
    Skill points at first level: (4+Int modifier) x4
    Skill points at each additional level: 4+Int modifier

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0 lv 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Conjured Ally (I) 5 3 — — — — — — — —
    2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Augment Summoning 6 4 — — — — — — — —
    3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Conjured Ally (II) 6 5 3 — — — — — — —
    4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Eclectic Learning 6 6 4 — — — — — — —
    5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Conjurer's Bondling, Conjured Ally (III) 6 6 5 3 — — — — — —
    6th +3 +2 +2 +5 Eclectic Learning 6 6 6 4 — — — — — —
    7th +3 +2 +2 +5 Conjured Ally (IV) 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — —
    8th +4 +2 +2 +6 Eclectic Learning 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — —
    9th +4 +3 +3 +6 Conjured Ally (V) 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — —
    10th +5 +3 +3 +7 Bind Outsider, Eclectic Learning 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — —
    11th +5 +3 +3 +7 Conjured Ally (VI) 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — —
    12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Eclectic Learning 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — —
    13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Conjured Ally (VII) 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — —
    14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Eclectic Learning 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — —
    15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Conjured Ally (VIII), Planar Step 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 —
    16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Eclectic Learning 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 —
    17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Conjured Ally (IX) 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Eclectic Learning 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Planar Wanderer 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5
    20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Planar Emperor 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Conjurers are proficient with all simple weapons, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a conjurer's movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells: A Conjurer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the Conjurer spell list below. When he gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level on the Conjurer's spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. He also has the option of adding to his existing spell list through his Ecclectic Learning class feature (see below) as he increases in level.

    To cast a Conjurer spell, a Conjurer must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Conjurer's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the Conjurer's Intelligence modifier. Like other spellcasters, a Conjurer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. The base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells for a high Intelligence score (PH 8).

    A Conjurer need not prepare spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.

    Conjured Ally (Sp): A true Conjurer never fights alone. Instead, he calls upon his magic to pull creatures from other planes to his side. Doing so is a standard action, and a Conjuration (Summoning) effect. The summoned creature appears adjacent to you and takes its turn immediately. If you can communicate with the creature, it follows your instructions to the best of its ability; if not, it follows at your side and attacks any foes who attack you. Summons last for a number of rounds equal to your Conjurer level plus your Intelligence modifier. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to one-half your Conjurer level plus your Intelligence modifier.

    Conjurers must know what they are calling, however; thus, they may only summon a limited number of different creatures. At 1st level, choose two creatures from the Summon Monster I and Summon Nature's Ally I spell lists. At each subsequent Conjurer level, you may select one additional creature to summon. These creatures may be drawn from any Summon Monster of Summon Nature's Ally spell of a level you could cast (if the spells were on your spell list). You may not choose to summon multiple creatures from a lower level list, however.

    Because the summoned creature is only held to the plane by the Conjurer's will, any magic it uses puts a drain on its summoner. A summoned creature may use a maximum of one spell or spell-like ability per two points of the Conjurer's Intelligence modifier.

    This ability counts as using a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell of the appropriate level.

    Augment Summoning: At second level, Conjurers's summons gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution. This ability counts as the feat Augment Summoning for all intents and purposes.

    Eclectic Learning: At 4th level, and every subsequent even-numbered level, a Conjurer learns one spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. If the spell is from the conjuration school, he learns it at its normal level. If it is not, he learns it one level higher than normal. He must be able to cast the spell at its adjusted level in order to learn it. He may not learn Summon Monster spells, or spells of the (Calling) subschool in this fashion.

    Conjurer's Bondling: Beginning at 5th level, a Conjurer can bind a summon to his service. He selects one of the creatures he could summon via his Conjured Ally ability and gains it as a Bondling. Bondlings function as familiars, with the following exceptions:
    • Bondlings gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution,
    • Bondlings use the higher of their normal Intelligence and the Intelligence specified for a familiar of the appropriate level.
    • Bondlings have a number of hit die of their normal type equal to your Conjurer level. (For example, a Hound Archon bondling of a 10th level Conjurer would have 10 Outsider hit die)
    • If your Bondling dies, you take 1d4 Wisdom damage, and must make a Will save (DC 10+your Bondling's HD) or be stunned for 1 round and sickened for 1d6 minutes thereafter.

    A Bondling may be replaced at any time with a one-hour ceremony.

    Bind Outsider (Sp): Beginning at 10th level, once per week, you may cast lesser planar binding, as the spell, with the following exceptions. It takes one hour to cast, and you may call a single creature from your Conjured Ally list. You may only have a single outsider in service to you at a time.

    In addition, you may construct a binding circle. This works exactly as the alternate, inward-focused use of a magic circle against evil spell, except that it is effective against outsiders and called creatures of any alignment.

    Planar Step (Sp): Beginning at 15th level, a Conjurer can flicker in and out of phase with reality as he chooses. When taking a move action to move or a full-round action to run, he may either teleport instantly to his destination or become ethereal for the duration of the movement. Doing so does not allow him to move farther than he could using his normal movement speed. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier.

    Planar Wanderer (Sp): At 19th level, a Conjurer slips in and out of reality without the slightest thought. As a move action, he may use either plane shift or teleport as a spell-like ability, usable at will. He may target only himself, and up to 50 pounds of objects he is carrying. Worn objects such as armor are included automatically.

    Planar Emperor (Su): By 20th level, a Conjurer's understanding of the planes rivals that of the gods. He may perform a special once-in-a-lifetime ritual, taking one week and using up reagents worth 10,000 gold, and create his own demiplane. This works as the psionic power genesis, with the following exceptions:
    • The plane is 1 square mile in size, although it may be laid out in any fashion the Conjurer wishes. Its size is static
    • The plane forms with 100 inhabitants. These inhabitants must be creatures of a type you could summon with your Conjured Ally ability, but have two hit die more than normal and all their ability score bonuses are 2 higher than normal. In addition, you and the inhabitants may communicate as though you shared a language. They are considered native to this plane. When you use your Conjured Ally ability, you may choose to summon one of your demiplane's inhabitants instead of a "generic" version of that creature. Inhabitants are persistent-- that is, any damage they take or items they carry persist when they are summoned or banished. If slain, they are permanently destroyed.
    • If fewer than 100 inhabitants are present on your plane (or summoned elsewhere), new inhabitants are birthed at a rate of one per day.

    If your demiplane is destroyed, you may repeat the ritual after a year and a day, but you may spend 10,000 experience points to do so.

    In addition, you are considered to be native to your demiplane, gaining the Extraplanar subtype whenever you leave.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Conjurer Spell List

    Spoiler
    Show

    Note: italicized spells have had their level changed from the original sorcerer/wizard list

    0-level Spells (Cantrips)
    • Caltrops (SpC): Creates caltrops in 5-ft.-by-5-ft. square, +5-ft. square/2 levels beyond 1st (max 5).
    • Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
    • Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
    • Light: Object shines like a torch.
    • Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.


    1st Level Spells
    • Benign Transposition (SpC): Two willing subjects switch places
    • Mount: Summons riding horse for 2 hours/level.
    • Resist Planar Alignment (SpC): Subject can resist penalties for being of an opposed alignment on an aligned Outer Plane.
    • Unseen Servant: Invisible force obeys your commands.



    2nd Level Spells
    • Baleful Transposition (SpC): Two subjects switch places.
    • Dimension Hop (PHB II): Teleport subject short distance.
    • Luminous Assassin, Lesser (PHB II): Summons an assassin to attack the subject.
    • [I]Phantom Steed: Magic horse appears for 1 hour/level.
    • Rope Trick: As many as eight creatures hide in extradimensional space.


    3rd Level Spells
    • Avoid Planar Effects (SpC): Provides temporary protection against overtly damaging planar traits.
    • Blink: You randomly vanish and reappear for 1 round/level.
    • Dimension Step (PHB II): Allies can immediately teleport a distance equal to their speed.
    • Dispel Magic: Cancels magical spells and effects.
    • Regal Procession (SpC): As mount, but you summon several mounts.
    • Regroup (PHB II): Teleports nearby allies to your side.
    • Scattering Trap (PHB II): Imbue one 5-ft. square/2 levels with teleport trap.
    • Servant Horde (SpC): Create 2d6 unseen servants +1/ level (max +15).
    • Shadow Phase (SpC): Subject becomes partially incorporeal
    • Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.


    4th Level Spells
    • Attune Form (SpC): Grant creature temporary protection against overtly damaging planar traits.
    • Baleful Blink (PHB II): Subject has 50% chance of failure on attacks and spells.
    • Bright Worms (PHB II): Fiery worms damage enemies within 20-ft. spread.
    • Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
    • Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
    • Luminous Assassin (PHB II): As lesser luminous assassin, but the assassin is more powerful.
    • Translocation Trick (SpC): You and subject switch places and appear as each other.


    5th Level Spells
    • Blink, Greater (SpC): Controlled blinking between the Material and Ethereal Planes grants defenses for 1 round/level.
    • Dimension Door, Greater (SpC): Short-range, multiple use dimension door.
    • Dimension Shuffle (PHB II): Teleport multiple creatures short distances within line of sight.
    • Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
    • Etherealness, Swift (PHB II): Subject momentarily becomes ethereal.
    • Insect Plague: Locust swarms attack creatures.
    • Mage’s Faithful Hound: Phantom dog can guard, attack.
      Plane Shift (F): As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
    • Planar Tolerance (SpC): Provides long-term protection against overtly damaging planar traits.
    • Secret Chest (F): Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will.
    • Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.


    6th Level Spells
    • Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but +20 on check.
    • Fire Spiders (SpC): Swarm of Fine fire elementals deals fire damage in an area.
    • Gemjump (F) (SpC): Teleport to the location of a specially prepared gem.
    • Luminous Assassin, Greater (PHB II): As luminous assassin, but the assassin is more powerful.
    • Shadow Walk: Step into shadow to travel rapidly.
    • Teleport Object: As teleport, but affects a touched object.


    7th Level Spells
    • Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
    • Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
    • Instant Summons (M): Prepared object appears in your hand.
    • Mage’s Magnificent Mansion (F): Door leads to extradimensional mansion.
    • Plane Shift, Greater (SpC): Plane shift accurately to your desired destination.
    • Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
    • Planar Bubble (SpC): Create bubble around creature that emulates its native planar environment.
    • Refuge (M): Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
    • Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival.


    8th Level Spells
    • Binding (M): Utilizes an array of techniques to imprison a creature.
    • Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
    • Fierce Pride of the Beastlands (SpC): Summon celestial lions and celestial dire lions to follow your commands.
    • Gate (X): Connects two planes for travel or summoning. (Portal version ONLY)
    • Maze: Traps subject in extradimensional maze.
    • Summon Golem (PHB II): Summon a clay, flesh, iron, or stone golem from a small amount of like material.
    • Temporal Stasis (M): Puts subject into suspended animation.


    9th Level Spells
    • Abyssal Army (SpC): Summons demons to fight for you.
    • Elemental Swarm: Summons multiple elementals.
    • Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
    • Heavenly Host (SpC): Summons archons to fight for you.
    • Hellish Horde (SpC): Summons devils to fight for you.
    • Imprisonment: Entombs subject beneath the earth.
    • Instant Refuge (M,X) (SpC): Transport to a safe location of your choice.
    • Reality Maelstrom (SpC): Hole in reality sends creatures and objects to another plane.
    • Summon Elemental Monolith (M) (SpC): Calls powerful elemental creature to fight for you.
    • Teleportation Circle (M): Circle teleports any creature inside to designated spot.



    -------------------------------------------------------

    New Feats

    Alien Call
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 3
    Benefit: When using your Conjured Ally ability, you may spend one additional daily use to add the Pseudonatural template (CArc) to the summoned creature.

    Desert Ally
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 3
    Benefit: When using your Conjured Ally ability, you may spend one additional daily use to add the Dustform template (Sandstorm) to the summoned creature.

    Double Summons
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 6
    Benefit: When using your Conjured Ally ability, you may spend two additional daily uses to summon a second creature of the same type.

    Faithful Ally
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 6
    Benefit: Beginning at 8th level, when using his Conjured Ally ability, a Conjurer may expend an additional daily use to have his summon last for a number of minutes equal to his Conjurer level plus his Intelligence modifier

    Frostfell Ally
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 3
    Benefit: When using your Conjured Ally ability, you may spend one additional daily use to add the Ice Beast template (Frostburn) to the summoned creature.

    Greenbound Ally
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 6
    Benefit: When using your Conjured Ally ability, you may spend three additional daily uses to add the Greenbound template (LEoF) to the summoned creature.

    Triple Summons
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 6
    Benefit: When using your Conjured Ally ability, you may spend four additional daily uses to summon a third creature of the same type.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2014-10-10 at 02:59 PM.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Spells: A Conjurer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the Conjurer spell list below. When He gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level on the Conjurer's spell list.
    Should be "he".

    Conjured Ally
    Can you choose to summon multiple from a lower-level list? What does Conjured Ally (X) on the class feature table stand for?

    Eclectic Learning: At 4th level, and every subsequent even-numbered level, a Conjurer learns one spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. If the spell is from the conjuration school, he learns it at its normal level. If it is not, he learns it one level higher than normal.
    Should clarify that they only learn spells they can currently cast, as calculated after the level change, if any.

    Conjurer's Bonding
    Should be "Bondling".

    Planar Step (Sp): Beginning at 15th level, a Conjurer can flicker in and out of phase with reality as he chooses. When taking a move action to move or a full-round action to run, he may either teleport instantly to his destination or become ethereal for the duration of the movement.
    I feel like this should somehow be made clearer that it doesn't let you move faster, just avoid obstacles/AoOs/whatever in the way.

    Planar Wanderer (Sp): At 20th level, a Conjurer slips in and out of reality without the slightest thought. As a move action, he may use either plane shift or teleport as a spell-like ability, usable at will. He may target only himself.
    And gear, one hopes.

    Conjurer Spell List
    What's with the spells listed in italics?

    Greenbound Summoning
    Prerequisite: Conjurer Level 6
    Benefit: When using your Conjured Ally ability, you may spend two additional daily uses to add the Greenbound template (LEoF) to the summoned creature.
    This might be underpriced. Also, the name probably shouldn't collide with the existing one. Maybe switch to "Greenbound Ally"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Can you choose to summon multiple from a lower-level list? What does Conjured Ally (X) on the class feature table stand for?
    Yes, you can-- I'll specify. Originally, I was going to actually write a list of possible companions by combining the lists from multiple Summon spells, and make a new tier at the end-- hence the X. I'll remove it and try to think of something else to put there.

    Should clarify that they only learn spells they can currently cast, as calculated after the level change, if any.
    Correct.

    I feel like this should somehow be made clearer that it doesn't let you move faster, just avoid obstacles/AoOs/whatever in the way.
    Yeah, most likely.

    And gear, one hopes.
    Well, I've escaped the monster. Too bad about the naked.

    What's with the spells listed in italics?
    Ah, probably should have specified. It's a convention I've been using throughout this project to denote spells that have had their level altered from the original sorcerer/wizard list.

    This might be underpriced. Also, the name probably shouldn't collide with the existing one. Maybe switch to "Greenbound Ally"?
    Would +3 uses be better? I'm not familiar with the template. Good call on the name, though.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Would +3 uses be better? I'm not familiar with the template.
    I think so, based on what I've seen. As a newsgroup post from a few years back says, "The template grants the plant type (immunities!), +6 natural AC, DR
    10/magic and slashing, fast healing 3, +4 to grapple, tremorsense, +6
    Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con... and some other less important stuff", although 1/day wall of thorns and at-will entangle were somehow lumped in with "less important stuff".

    It's … pretty crazy. On a spell, it should probably be at least +3 spell levels, so make of that what you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    This looks like a lot of fun, but it's Tier 1 and totally beyond the bard in capability.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    I think so, based on what I've seen. As a newsgroup post from a few years back says, "The template grants the plant type (immunities!), +6 natural AC, DR
    10/magic and slashing, fast healing 3, +4 to grapple, tremorsense, +6
    Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con... and some other less important stuff", although 1/day wall of thorns and at-will entangle were somehow lumped in with "less important stuff".

    It's … pretty crazy. On a spell, it should probably be at least +3 spell levels, so make of that what you will.
    Eesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    This looks like a lot of fun, but it's Tier 1 and totally beyond the bard in capability.
    Even with only the 21 summons known? Would you mind providing a little more rationale and/or suggestions for lowing it?

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
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    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Long-term minionmancy (summons), good BFC (web, walls), SoDs when you need them (summon swarm in particular, still at level 2?), gorgeous mobility (regroup, transposition, dim door), and plays the travel game better than most (travel gate, plane shift, teleport).

    The thing that bothers me the most is that you gave nice buffs to summoning, but the Luminous Assassin line still sucks. I seriously would find it difficult to burn a even a swift action to summon a CR 5 creature at level 13.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-12-02 at 11:54 AM.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Long-term minionmancy (summons), good BFC (web, walls), SoDs when you need them (summon swarm in particular, still at level 2?), gorgeous mobility (regroup, transposition, dim door), and plays the travel game better than most (travel gate, plane shift, teleport).

    The thing that bothers me the most is that you gave nice buffs to summoning, but the Luminous Assassin line still sucks. I seriously would find it difficult to burn a even a swift action to summon a CR 5 creature at level 13.
    Hmm... let's see. What would you say if we were to:
    • Cut summons/day down to 1/2 level + Int modifier
    • Weaken Bind Outsider by simply having CR=1/2 level or Int modifier, whichever is higher.
    • Make Extended Summon a feat.
    • Move Summon Swarm up a spell level.
    • Move the Luminous Assassins down a spell level.
    • Cut out some of the (Creation) spells altogether-- either just Web and the Walls, or those plus Hail of Stone, Tiny Hut, Stone Sphere and the like?

    Spells in doubt
    Spoiler
    Show

    Hail of Stone
    • Cloud of Knives
    • Ice Knife
    • Web
    • Tiny Hut
    • Minor Creation
    • Secure Shelter
    • Stone Sphere
    • Wall of Ice
    • Wall of Sand
    • Wall of Water
    • Major Creation
    • Wall of Stone
    • Wall of Iron
    • Obedient Avalanche


    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Yeah, I'm not sure if this falls under tier 1, but at the very least it's mid-high tier 2, even with your nerfs.

    The real problem is, Conjuration is basically the strongest school in the game, and can win by itself. And you combined the strongest aspects of it for a single class.

    If you want this down at Bard level, you're going to have to restrict it to basically just summoning. Even then, it's still really strong because a lot of summons have special abilities/spell likes that give a lot more flexibility than is first apparent.

    Then push the teleporting/planar mastery stuff onto a different class that has a spell list that needs the help more (Personally I'd stick it in with the Duskblade, giving a 4e swordsage kind of feel with a lot of instant short range teleports, with free long range teleports at higher levels. But Warmage is an equally good pick, or a Divination focused caster).


    Alternatively, you could keep all of your class feature based goodies, and the relatively broad spell list, but cut it down to a partial caster. Give it Bard level casting instead of Sorcerer, but let it keep the full powered Conjured Ally and other features. The features alone make him a badass summoner, then the Spell List gets used to supplement that, as opposed to having two sources of incredibly awesome summoning. You can shift some key spells to be lower level (so you get them at the appropriate level), but overall should have a weaker list/spells per day than what is available now.

    Unrelated: I'm curious why Elemental Swarm didn't make the cut for your higher level spell list. That's probably my favorite summoning style spell.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2013-12-02 at 02:42 PM.
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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure if this falls under tier 1, but at the very least it's mid-high tier 2, even with your nerfs.

    The real problem is, Conjuration is basically the strongest school in the game, and can win by itself. And you combined the strongest aspects of it for a single class.
    They make sense when put together, is my main thought. Summoning is pulling something through planar boundaries, while teleporting is pushing yourself through those same boundaries. I did (or will be) cutting out all the other things that the school can do-- the debuffs, the BFC, the save-or-dies. Teleportation by itself just seems awkward. (I mean, I guess you could do a gish-y scout-y thing, but that seems like it'd be jumping in on too many mundane toes).

    Taking a detailed look at what I've made... It's got a reasonably high optimization floor, because fixed-list casters generally do. The ceiling is fairly high, if you comb the obscure lists and pick out the most SLA-heavy summons, but it's still reasonably controlled. A summon-focused archivist is going to blow him out of the water. A wizard or cleric too, most likely. So, I think, will a well-built sorcerer-- all will have (potentially) more summons/day, more variety in what they can summon at any given point, and they'll have the buffs and BFC to properly support their summons once they're out.

    Is it stronger and more versatile than a (non Sublime Chord) bard? Potentially. Is it stronger and more versatile than a summoner sorcerer? Probably not. Is it simpler and more predictable in play? Almost certainly.

    ...

    Still, would it be worth the effort to return to my original idea and write a limited list from which to pick your Conjured Allies? (And if so, what options are absolutely positively too good for the level they're normally at?)

    Alternately (or in addition to)... SLAs are where things get nasty, so what if "all summons must draw their power from the summoner" and only a limited number of SLAs may be used per day? (Level+Int Mod total? Level+Int Mod spell levels? 1/2 level*Int mod?)

    Unrelated: I'm curious why Elemental Swarm didn't make the cut for your higher level spell list. That's probably my favorite summoning style spell.
    Probably because I was only looking at Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Good catch, though-- anything else vital I'm missing?

    EDIT: Although, now that I think about it... maybe replace the teleports with (Creation) spells, and make a 3/5 spell-list expanding PrC that focuses on teleports... I was already thinking about doing one for healing...
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-12-03 at 01:28 AM.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Is the "summoner sorcerer" something people actually play? Because that sounds pretty terrible and I feel like this class would probably outdo it.

    You should seriously look at the summoning lists. They're generally really bad, and are useful mostly because the lists are so huge that you can dumpster dive through them for a bunch of interesting things. This class rocks because it has the best BFC and good SoDs, not because it has some summons.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Added a limit to the number of spells or spell-like abilities summoned creatures can use, and weakened Bind Outsider a bit. I'm still not entirely happy with that one... maybe there's some way I could combine it with Conjurer's Bondling...

    @Just to Browse: Look at the list again-- I've cut out pretty much all of the BFC and SoD's.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-12-13 at 03:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I've cut out pretty much all of the BFC and SoD's.
    The Conjurer is supposed to be the master pf conjuration magic right? Well then why would you remove the battlefield control and save or die conjuration spells?

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by JonathonWilder View Post
    The Conjurer is supposed to be the master pf conjuration magic right? Well then why would you remove the battlefield control and save or die conjuration spells?
    He's meant to be a master of summoning. A planar magician. Creating walls of stone and pits of tentacles is more of a warmage thing, I think.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2014-09-26 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    He's meant to be a master of summoning. A planar magician. Creating walls of stone and pits of tentacles is more of a warmage thing, I think.
    Hmm, fair enough.

    Honestly I am grasping just to find something to criticize, as currently out of your classes but only one that don't sit right with me is the Bard.
    Last edited by JonathonWilder; 2014-10-03 at 12:31 AM.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    did you forget the old horrid template? just curious, its like a better version of dire, stack able, and only used like 3 times in d&d i swear, also what about spectral as a summon boost, make those bad ass monster ghosts woot woot
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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    did you forget the old horrid template? just curious, its like a better version of dire, stack able, and only used like 3 times in d&d i swear, also what about spectral as a summon boost, make those bad ass monster ghosts woot woot
    It was less a "forgot" than a "didn't know about." Most of the feats were to replace Summon X line spells, but more templates wouldn't be a bad idea... you're welcome to take a stab at it if you'd like.

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    Default Re: The Conjurer: summons, teleports, and...balance? Oh my! (Fixed-List Caster Projec

    okay, i very well might, though im just getting back into 5e after a long time off, and im pretty busy these days,but i will happily try, also i am so glad a summon class is back yay
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