Alignment

[Aimbot]

Since alignment is more or less the rule of most contention on these forums I figured an experiment was in order. An interesting claim was recently made, that was that being a jerk wasn't necessarily evil. I'm going to detail a lot of actions that I could conceivably do in a day to day situation. Write what alignment type (Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, ect.) you think the action indicates. Bear in mind that these actions are not continuous, I'm not performing every action in sequence. Don't read it as a list of actions, read it as a list of posible actions. Also this does not indicate my actual behavior, obviously.



I'm going to Barnes and Noble to pick up a sorcebook.

First I arrive in the parking lot:

1. I park my beautiful 2004 Mini Cooper so that I partially use four parking spaces, ensuring no jerk accidentally dings my car.

2. I park my Mini normally, but accidentally slam my door into the car next to mine. I check for damages, but fortunately my door is blemish free. I re-park a few spaces away to alleviate suspicion and disembark.

On the way in I spot a 20$ bill on the ground:

3. I pocket it, who would I turn it in to anyways?

4. I pocket it without justifying it to myself.

5. I pocket it and later give it to the SPCA.

6. I leave it on the ground, I don't need the money as much as someone else might.

7. I turn it into the front desk for one of the tellers to pocket.

Before I start shopping I need to use the bathroom, but on the way:

8. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I feel terrible.

9. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I don't feel terrible, actually I found it kind of funny.

10. I shout loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal at a couple of small children. They looked at me funny and smell bad, so I thought it was justified.

I get to the bathroom and pick a stall:

11. I get a cheap laugh out of all the sexually and racially explicit graffiti.

12. I write some of my own.

13. I copy a few of the more promising phone numbers.

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.

15. I ignore the graffiti.

16. I don't flush.

After relieving myself I:

17: Don't wash my hands.

18. Decide I don't need that sourcebook and leave without making a purchase.

On my way over to the D&D section I spot a couple of dangerously underweight kids looking at the dieting section:

19. I loudly mutter something about kids being too fat these days after making sure they noticed me glancing at them.

20. I inform them that the book they're currently considering is far too conservative and point them to a more extreme choice.

21. I lecture them on the dangers of their choices and make them put the book back.

22. I mind my own business.

I've reached the D&D shelf and found the book I wanted, but it's forty-frigging-five dollars:

23. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. Yoink.

24. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll find it on line.

25. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just rip out the pages I need and no one's the wiser.

26. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need.

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.

28. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll replace the price tag with a thirty dollar one.

29. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without.

30. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without. To cheer myself up I find a copy of Book of Vile Darkness and leave it opened to a particularly "flavorful" illustration in the kid's section.

31. Ugh. I'm paying it, but I'll be sure to be rude to the cashier to work out some frustration.

32. I'll take it! I can't believe it was in stock! I'm grateful to Wizard's for the excellent and reasonably priced book.



I think that's enough. Judge away.

[Dhavaer]

Since alignment is more or less the rule of most contention on these forums I figured an experiment was in order. An interesting claim was recently made, that was that being a jerk wasn't necessarily evil. I'm going to detail a lot of actions that I could conceivably do in a day to day situation. Write what alignment type (Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, ect.) you think the action indicates. Bear in mind that these actions are not continuous, I'm not performing every action in sequence. Don't read it as a list of actions, read it as a list of posible actions. Also this does not indicate my actual behavior, obviously.



I'm going to Barnes and Noble to pick up a sorcebook.

First I arrive in the parking lot:

1. I park my beautiful 2004 Mini Cooper so that I partially use four parking spaces, ensuring no jerk accidentally dings my car.

Mildly evil, slight chaotic.

2. I park my Mini normally, but accidentally slam my door into the car next to mine. I check for damages, but fortunately my door is blemish free. I re-park a few spaces away to alleviate suspicion and disembark.

Slightly chaotic.

On the way in I spot a 20$ bill on the ground:

3. I pocket it, who would I turn it in to anyways?

Unaligned.

4. I pocket it without justifying it to myself.

Unaligned.

5. I pocket it and later give it to the SPCA.

Slightly good.

6. I leave it on the ground, I don't need the money as much as someone else might.

Slightly good.

7. I turn it into the front desk for one of the tellers to pocket.

Slightly good.

Before I start shopping I need to use the bathroom, but on the way:

8. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I feel terrible.

Slightly lawful.

9. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I don't feel terrible, actually I found it kind of funny.

Slightly chaotic.

10. I shout loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal at a couple of small children. They looked at me funny and smell bad, so I thought it was justified.

Uh... I can't imagine.

I get to the bathroom and pick a stall:

11. I get a cheap laugh out of all the sexually and racially explicit graffiti.

Unaligned.

12. I write some of my own.

Slightly chaotic.

13. I copy a few of the more promising phone numbers.

Unaligned.

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.

Unaligned.

15. I ignore the graffiti.

Unaligned.

16. I don't flush.

Unaligned.

After relieving myself I:

17: Don't wash my hands.

Unaligned.

18. Decide I don't need that sourcebook and leave without making a purchase.

Unaligned.

On my way over to the D&D section I spot a couple of dangerously underweight kids looking at the dieting section:

19. I loudly mutter something about kids being too fat these days after making sure they noticed me glancing at them.

Slightly evil.

20. I inform them that the book they're currently considering is far too conservative and point them to a more extreme choice.

Slightly evil.

21. I lecture them on the dangers of their choices and make them put the book back.

Slightly good.

22. I mind my own business.

Unaligned.

I've reached the D&D shelf and found the book I wanted, but it's forty-frigging-five dollars:

23. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. Yoink.

Slightly evil.

24. Like I'm paying that for a sorucebook. I'll find it on line.

Unaligned.

25. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just rip out the pages I need an no one's the wiser.

Slightly evil.

26. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need.

Unaligned.

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.

Unaligned.

28. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll replace the price tag with a thirty dollar one.

Slightly evil.

29. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without.

Unaligned.

30. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without. To cheer myself up I find a copy of Book of Vile Darkness and leave it opened to a particularly "flavorful" illustration in the kid's section.

Slightly chaotic.

31. Ugh. I'm paying it, but I'll be sure to be rude to the cashier to work out some frustration.

Slightly evil.

32. I'll take it! I can't believe it was in stock! I'm grateful to Wizard's for the excellent and reasonably priced book.

Unaligned.

[Hallavast]

1. chaotic neutral
2. neutral
3. neutral
4. neutral
5. lawful neutral
6. neutral good
7. lawful neutral
8. neutral
9. neutral
10. neutral
11. neutral
12. chaotic neutral
13. neutral
14. lawful neutral
15. neutral
16. neutral
17. chaotic neutral
18. neutral
19. chaotic evil
20. chaotic evil
21. neutral
22. neutral
23. neutral evil
24. neutral evil (assuming you mean to pirate the book. If you mean to pay for an online download, then it's neutral.)
25. chaotic evil
26. neutral
27. chaotic neutral
28. chaotic neutral
29. neutral
30. chaotic neutral
31. neutral
32. neutral

I'd like you to note that I these do not represent actions of such aligned people, but merely the alignment of the actions themselves.

[Ambrogino]

[Thomas]

TL fricking DR, but I like the motivational poster.

Individual actions are independent of and irrelevant to alignment, really (although the D&D books sure do love to make it seem otherwise).

[Stephen_E]

TL fricking DR, but I like the motivational poster.

Individual actions are independent of and irrelevant to alignment, really (although the D&D books sure do love to make it seem otherwise).

Mostly I agree with Thomas.
Alignment is based on your general approach to things. I personally blame the Paladin clause for most of the misleading involved in this.

Basically a individual action without context doesn't tell you enough to make a decent judgement. When peole make judgements on an individual action as you've laid them out, they're generally judging the situation thay fleshed out in their minds around the skeleton you gave them.

Stephen

[Thomas]

Play games with moral relativism! Cultural ethics! Go Glorantha! They're evil because they're different!

[Stephen_E]

Play games with moral relativism! Cultural ethics! Go Glorantha! They're evil because they're different!

Aren't you describing what the DnD alignment system is based on.
Orcs are evil because they Orcs. Paladins/Rangers (1st Ed) are good because they're Paladins/Rangers.
All the other stuff got tagged on because players started arguing that it didn't make sense.

Stephen

[Thomas]

There's a difference.

"Orcs are usually Evil" is a description of statistical trends; because D&D provides spare detail at best for any monster (although that's been changing in the latest supplements), you're left to come up with the explanation yourself.

Paladins aren't Good because they're Paladins - they're Paladins because they're Good.

In games that dont' subscribe to D&D's childish views of morality and ethics, you get the real deal. There's no "they're evil because they eat people!" (Well, except with Chaos, but that's a different thing.) It's "they're evil because they worship differently, and they speak a different language, and they live in a different land! By the way, watch out for that other clan over the hill - they're strange and untrustworthy, and do things differently from us."

D&D is very much moral absolutism. Races that eat sentient humanoids are evil. Demons are evil because they're EEEEEVIL. Celestials are good because they're made of sunshine and rainbows and puppy-dog-eyes.

[Stephen_E]

In games that dont' subscribe to D&D's childish views of morality and ethics, you get the real deal. There's no "they're evil because they eat people!" (Well, except with Chaos, but that's a different thing.) It's "they're evil because they worship differently, and they speak a different language, and they live in a different land! By the way, watch out for that other clan over the hill - they're strange and untrustworthy, and do things differently from us.".

You made me realsie part of why I like Ebberon so much better. Ebberon you hate people because they're from the other kingdom. Not because of their race or what they detect as. Sure that fella may be a Goblin, but he's a local goblin, and you're a foreign human, and if you touch him we'll kick your arse.

Celestials are good because they're made of sunshine and rainbows and puppy-dog-eyes.

That made me snigger. Of course I prefer cats (not kittens), and at that, I prefer 16-19 year old cats with 3 canines removed and a crippled back leg, who intimidate other cats by screamimg at them from 2 inchs away while glaring them in the eye. The sort that mothers look at from 40' away and tell their kids not to go near because he looks like he bites (this without him making a noise). But then I think Wolverines are cute as well and tried to sell a GM on having a Wolverine familiar give a Charisma bonus (this was 3.0).

Stephen

[Ambrogino]

I prefer 16-19 year old cats with 3 canines removed ...

Don't take dogs out of cats! You'll disrupt the zoologic continuum!

[Last_resort_33]

D&D is very much moral absolutism. Races that eat sentient humanoids are evil. Demons are evil because they're EEEEEVIL. Celestials are good because they're made of sunshine and rainbows and puppy-dog-eyes.

IMHO, the thing to note here is that D&D is not trying to emulate life... D&D is trying to emulate a story... a farytale, with Beautiful Princesses, Knights in Shining Armour, Wicked Witches and Big Bad Wolves, the Brave King Arthur and the Evil Giant. They are absolute because they are stories... stories using concepts other than this are a reasonably modern invention.

That's the way I try to play it anyway...

My two copper pieces

[Shazzbaa]

Okay, I'll try to do this without looking at other people's answers, then I'll discuss things later if I have time to read through all of it....

1. I park my beautiful 2004 Mini Cooper so that I partially use four parking spaces, ensuring no jerk accidentally dings my car.

Chaotic -- you don't care about what's supposed to be done, you're doing it the way you wanna. It might be slightly evil due to the thoughtless/selfish aspect, but I'd only really consider this Evil if there's an obvious shortage of parking spaces.

2. I park my Mini normally, but accidentally slam my door into the car next to mine. I check for damages, but fortunately my door is blemish free. I re-park a few spaces away to alleviate suspicion and disembark.

Any Non-good.

On the way in I spot a 20$ bill on the ground:

3. I pocket it, who would I turn it in to anyways?

4. I pocket it without justifying it to myself.

Neither one of these warrants a particular alignment descriptor.

5. I pocket it and later give it to the SPCA.

6. I leave it on the ground, I don't need the money as much as someone else might.

7. I turn it into the front desk for one of the tellers to pocket.

All are Good.

Before I start shopping I need to use the bathroom, but on the way:

8. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I feel terrible.

Not Evil, not Good. I can't decide anything about the Law/Chaos axis, though.

9. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I don't feel terrible, actually I found it kind of funny.

Chaotic.

10. I shout loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal at a couple of small children. They looked at me funny and smell bad, so I thought it was justified.

....still Chaotic.

I get to the bathroom and pick a stall:

11. I get a cheap laugh out of all the sexually and racially explicit graffiti.

No particular alignment, but you ain't no paladin.

12. I write some of my own.

Probably Chaotic.

13. I copy a few of the more promising phone numbers.

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.

15. I ignore the graffiti.

I don't think any of these has an alignment associated. Your motivation for scribbling out everything could fall under many alignments.

16. I don't flush.

After relieving myself I:

17: Don't wash my hands.

Lazy!

18. Decide I don't need that sourcebook and leave without making a purchase.

No particular alignment here, either.

On my way over to the D&D section I spot a couple of dangerously underweight kids looking at the dieting section:

19. I loudly mutter something about kids being too fat these days after making sure they noticed me glancing at them.

Um, wow. Evil.

20. I inform them that the book they're currently considering is far too conservative and point them to a more extreme choice.

Still Evil.

21. I lecture them on the dangers of their choices and make them put the book back.

...I guess that's Good.

22. I mind my own business.

This is one of the most Neutral statements ever.

I've reached the D&D shelf and found the book I wanted, but it's forty-frigging-five dollars:

23. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. Yoink.

Chaotic! And non-Good, leaning Evil. You're cheating someone out of their money.

24. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll find it on line.

I'm not sure about this one. It leans non-Lawful, non-Good, though.

25. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just rip out the pages I need and no one's the wiser.

Um, wow. Still Chaotic. I'm tempted to call this Evil since you're actually destroying someone else's property.

26. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need.

Same as 24. Although I would consider this to be less non-Lawful and non-Good than 24, I'm not entirely sure why. Logically, they seem about the same.

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.

Chaotic! Again! Weeelllll, maybe just non-Lawful...

28. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll replace the price tag with a thirty dollar one.

...I don't think that works, they've got the little scanner thingy and... oh well. Okay, um, Chaotic. This is leaning Evil, too, since you're still cheating someone out of their money, just like 23.

29. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without.

No particular alignment.

30. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without. To cheer myself up I find a copy of Book of Vile Darkness and leave it opened to a particularly "flavorful" illustration in the kid's section.

Hmm. Chaotic (surprise, surprise). And non-Good. Leaning Evil since you're going out of your way to upset someone.

31. Ugh. I'm paying it, but I'll be sure to be rude to the cashier to work out some frustration.

It's not very Good.

32. I'll take it! I can't believe it was in stock! I'm grateful to Wizard's for the excellent and reasonably priced book.

No particular alignment for buying a book and being happy about it.

Basically, my thinking was this:
Good: Go out of your way to be thoughtful, or to help someone.
Evil: Go out of your way to hurt or upset someone.
Chaotic: Go out of your way to go against the norm or upset order.
Lawful: Go out of your way to uphold order.

Not being thoughtful is Non-Good, but not necessarily Evil.

There isn't a lot of "Good" in my rulings, but honestly, you didn't particularly list a lot of Good actions. For example, you mention going out of your way to be rude to the cashier, but you never mention the possibility of going out of your way to be nice to her, which would be a thoughtful, and thus Good, act.

There's also not a lot of Lawful. It's hard to peg an everyday action as being Lawful or Non-Chaotic, because a lot of times that just means "behaving normally;" but I don't think behaving normally in and of itself makes you anything other than Neutral on the Law/Chaos axis. Although, as with Good, part of the lack of Lawful does have to do with the scenarios presented.

Also, bear in mind that a Good or Lawful person could probably perform most of these actions, even those that say "non-Good" or "non-Lawful." Overall alignment is an outlook, not a creed. A person can look at the world in a LG way and still yoink the sourcebook -- it's just quite doubtful that he would consistently behave in such a way.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Since alignment is more or less the rule of most contention on these forums I figured an experiment was in order. An interesting claim was recently made, that was that being a jerk wasn't necessarily evil. I'm going to detail a lot of actions that I could conceivably do in a day to day situation. Write what alignment type (Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, ect.) you think the action indicates. Bear in mind that these actions are not continuous, I'm not performing every action in sequence. Don't read it as a list of actions, read it as a list of posible actions. Also this does not indicate my actual behavior, obviously.

Hoo, shoot, this will take a while to answer...

I'm going to Barnes and Noble to pick up a sorcebook.

First I arrive in the parking lot:

1. I park my beautiful 2004 Mini Cooper so that I partially use four parking spaces, ensuring no jerk accidentally dings my car.

Chaotic Evil, lol. No, I'm kidding, neutral. Inconveniencing others and being a space hog isn't going to send you to hell.

2. I park my Mini normally, but accidentally slam my door into the car next to mine. I check for damages, but fortunately my door is blemish free. I re-park a few spaces away to alleviate suspicion and disembark.

This is a neutral evil action, but such a small one that I wouldn't count it against your established alignment.

On the way in I spot a 20$ bill on the ground:

3. I pocket it, who would I turn it in to anyways?

Neutral.

4. I pocket it without justifying it to myself.

Evil, but again such a minor evil would hardly count towards anything. I don't see evil actions as "adding up" like some kind of bean counter on your soul, either.

5. I pocket it and later give it to the SPCA.

Neutral Good, but still hardly an important action.

6. I leave it on the ground, I don't need the money as much as someone else might.

Neutral. Neutral Good if you are deliberately avoiding material gains for the sake of your soul, but since you're on a trip to the bookstore to get a gaming suppliment I doubt this is the case.

7. I turn it into the front desk for one of the tellers to pocket.

Neutral good.

Before I start shopping I need to use the bathroom, but on the way:

8. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I feel terrible.

Neutral.

9. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I don't feel terrible, actually I found it kind of funny.

Neutral. This has absolutely no significance as far as Jesus, Buddha and Allah are concerned.

10. I shout loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal at a couple of small children. They looked at me funny and smell bad, so I thought it was justified.

Neutral Evil, but pretty minor.

I get to the bathroom and pick a stall:

11. I get a cheap laugh out of all the sexually and racially explicit graffiti.

Neutral.

12. I write some of my own.

Neutral.

13. I copy a few of the more promising phone numbers.

Neutral--hey, they're offering.

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.

Neutral. Nothing involving bathroom graffiti will be significant, ever.

15. I ignore the graffiti.

Neutral.

16. I don't flush.

OH YOU CHAOTIC EVIL FU--neutral.

After relieving myself I:

17: Don't wash my hands.

Neutral. Lazy, but neutral.

18. Decide I don't need that sourcebook and leave without making a purchase.

Evil! Barnes & Noble needs your business! :( No, not really. Neutral.

On my way over to the D&D section I spot a couple of dangerously underweight kids looking at the dieting section:

19. I loudly mutter something about kids being too fat these days after making sure they noticed me glancing at them.

Neutral. If an offhanded comment from a random stranger will actually induce these kids to starving themselves to death, then **** 'em.

20. I inform them that the book they're currently considering is far too conservative and point them to a more extreme choice.

Also neutral.

21. I lecture them on the dangers of their choices and make them put the book back.

Neutral. I doubt anything you say will have serious effects on these children.

22. I mind my own business.

Neutral.

I've reached the D&D shelf and found the book I wanted, but it's forty-frigging-five dollars:

23. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. Yoink.

Equally likely to be chaotic or neutral evil. You scum.

24. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll find it on line.

Neutral.

25. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just rip out the pages I need and no one's the wiser.

Chaotic Evil.

26. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need.

Neutral Evil.

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.

Chaotic Evil.

28. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll replace the price tag with a thirty dollar one.

Neutral Evil.

29. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without.

Neutral.

30. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without. To cheer myself up I find a copy of Book of Vile Darkness and leave it opened to a particularly "flavorful" illustration in the kid's section.

Neutral.

31. Ugh. I'm paying it, but I'll be sure to be rude to the cashier to work out some frustration.

Neutral. He's not gonna die because you were unpleasant.

32. I'll take it! I can't believe it was in stock! I'm grateful to Wizard's for the excellent and reasonably priced book.

Neutral, you tool.

I think that's enough. Judge away.

And so I have! As you can see, I found the vast majority of your actions neutral, and the ones I did consider good/evil were very minor. I wouldn't change your alignment from neutral over anything you did. Heck, you could have been lawful good and just in a particularly foul mood and suffer from a crippling addiction to D&D that made you compromise your normal morals.

Remember, alignment's not a straight jacket. Being Neutral Good does not mean you have to be Mother Theresa, and being Chaotic Evil doesn't mean you have to be Charles Manson. There's plenty of wiggle room in every alignment; there has to be, as humans are fickle creatures. A

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

I don't understand why alignment is so frickin' hard for people. Law and chaos is a no-brainer, and good and evil are about that, good and evil. A person who goes after someone just because they feel differently about something inconsequential is a bad person no matter what. Someone who rapes another person is a bad person, no matter what. Someone who stops the bad person from doing bad things, like, a Paladin saving children from a Blackguard is a good person, or someone who helps out people with no promise or expectation of a reward is a good person.

Obviously its not always that simple, but use your head; good and evil isn't about religion or region or whatever, its whether you give a damn about other people or not.

Oh, and neutral is the absence or balance of these things. Blagha.

Edit: Had I read the WHOLE thread, I would have found out somebody already said this. Whoops. that my friends, was dumb/careless.

[Dark_Wind]

1. I park my beautiful 2004 Mini Cooper so that I partially use four parking spaces, ensuring no jerk accidentally dings my car.

Neutral evil. This has nothing to do with law or chaos. You're inconveniencing others for minor personal gain.

2. I park my Mini normally, but accidentally slam my door into the car next to mine. I check for damages, but fortunately my door is blemish free. I re-park a few spaces away to alleviate suspicion and disembark.

Chaotic Neutral. The ding was an accident, but running away from it is definitely chaotic in my eyes.

3. I pocket it, who would I turn it in to anyways?

True Neutral. Not harming anyone, really, but not altruistic either.

4. I pocket it without justifying it to myself.

True Neutral. Same as above.

5. I pocket it and later give it to the SPCA.

Neutral Good. Wonderful, for all the good it will do...

6. I leave it on the ground, I don't need the money as much as someone else might.

Neutral Good, probably fruitless. I mean, really, all that does is ensure that the next TN guy to come along takes it instead of you.

7. I turn it into the front desk for one of the tellers to pocket.

Neutral Good, probably fruitless.

8. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I feel terrible.

No specific alignment.

9. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I don't feel terrible, actually I found it kind of funny.

Not sure...

10. I shout loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal at a couple of small children. They looked at me funny and smell bad, so I thought it was justified.

Chaotic Evil. Not a major act at all, but randomly swearing at children is CE in my eyes.

11. I get a cheap laugh out of all the sexually and racially explicit graffiti.

Unsure.

12. I write some of my own.

Chaotic Neutral. Whatever. Bathroom graffiti. It's non-lawful in the strictest sense, but that's about it.

13. I copy a few of the more promising phone numbers.

Chaotic Stupid. I mean, really.

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.

Chaotic Good (maybe...?)

15. I ignore the graffiti.

True Neutral. Apathy wins.

16. I don't flush.

True Neutral. Disgusting, but...

17: Don't wash my hands.

Neutral Stupid?

18. Decide I don't need that sourcebook and leave without making a purchase.

True Neutral.

19. I loudly mutter something about kids being too fat these days after making sure they noticed me glancing at them.

True Neutral. You're being an asshat, yes, but in all probability will be ignored. Not enough to shift on any axis.

20. I inform them that the book they're currently considering is far too conservative and point them to a more extreme choice.

Chaotic Evil. You're causing others harm for no real reason. The worst form of CE.

21. I lecture them on the dangers of their choices and make them put the book back.

Not sure on this one...

22. I mind my own business.

True Neutral. That's right. Just butt out, buddy.

23. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. Yoink.

Chaotic Evil. Theft is definitely nonlawful, and usually evil. This is no exception.

24. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll find it on line.

True Neutral. Yay for internets!

25. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just rip out the pages I need and no one's the wiser.

Chaotic Evil. And wierd at that.

26. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need.

Chaotic, obviously, definitely non-Good.

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.

As above.

28. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll replace the price tag with a thirty dollar one.

Still Chaotic, and not that bright, either, considering it won't work.

29. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without.

That's neutral.

30. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without. To cheer myself up I find a copy of Book of Vile Darkness and leave it opened to a particularly "flavorful" illustration in the kid's section.

Wierdest Chaotic Evil ever.

[quote=Aimbot;1832736]31. Ugh. I'm paying it, but I'll be sure to be rude to the cashier to work out some frustration.[quote]

Mildly CE.

32. I'll take it! I can't believe it was in stock! I'm grateful to Wizard's for the excellent and reasonably priced book.

Lawful Suck-up? No, neutral, really.

[Aimbot]

Interesting.

I agree with you, Thomas, but alignment influences actions. I guess a better question would be what alignment would someone likely be if you saw them committing those actions. I've also noticed that morality is much looser as D&D is concerned. For instance, no one said that not washing your hands is evil, and yet it can spread fatal or dehabilitating disease in a worst case scenario (Not that I'd change alignment or cause a paladin to fall for poor hygiene, but you get the idea.) I consider mocking someone to be a minor evil in a D&D scenario as it is an act done for your benefit (a cheap laugh) without thought for how it affects others.

[Desaril]

I'm not going through each and every action because I agree that alignment is more theoretical or philosophical than any individual action. Alignment is not measured by individual actions, but by the sum of all actions. However, there is an interplay between action and alignment. Your actions dictate your alignment as much as your alignment dictates your behavior. If not, you are not roleplaying properly. D20 creates a problem by making alignment a mechanical rule for certain things, although it is principally a role-playing element. Alignment is the worst (or perhaps best) combination of fluff and crunch.

To me the role-playing aspect is indeed relative. Whether helping an old lady across the street or bumping her head and steal her goods is "good" or "evil" probably depends on a lot of different factors including why you do either, the history between the two characters (maybe she slew your entire family last adventure), the character's belief system, etc ad nauseum. In a vacuum, no action can be definitively defined as good or evil. The GM resolves this by giving the characters a moral framework in which to evaluate the morality of actions.

The mechanical aspect is different. D20 makes alignment a trait that has mechanical effects (holy smite, detect evil, etc). So, the GM has got to decide how every character (and possibly objects) interacts with those mechanics. Therefore, each character needs an alignment. I think that each character should be assigned (chosen by the player with GM approval) an alignment which determines the mechanical effect. That alignment is largely fixed and should only change under significant circumstances.

[TheOOB]

Testing asdigfea

1. I park my beautiful 2004 Mini Cooper so that I partially use four parking spaces, ensuring no jerk accidentally dings my car.

Slightly Chaotic, Slightly Evil is there is a sevear shortage of Parking Spaces - Your going agienst the rules and social moraes to benefit yourself, but unless theres no spots otherwise your not hurting anyone

2. I park my Mini normally, but accidentally slam my door into the car next to mine. I check for damages, but fortunately my door is blemish free. I re-park a few spaces away to alleviate suspicion and disembark.

Slightly Chaotic - You probally should admit what happened, but since you didn't do it on purpose it's not evil

On the way in I spot a 20$ bill on the ground:

3. I pocket it, who would I turn it in to anyways?

Unaligned - Your reason for doing something has no affect on alignment, only actions.

4. I pocket it without justifying it to myself.

Unaligned

5. I pocket it and later give it to the SPCA.

Slightly Good - Probally could have used the money, but did the right thing

6. I leave it on the ground, I don't need the money as much as someone else might.

Unaligned - Thats just lazy

7. I turn it into the front desk for one of the tellers to pocket.

Sligtly Good - same reasons as 5

Before I start shopping I need to use the bathroom, but on the way:

8. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I feel terrible.

Unaligned - same reasons as 3

9. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I don't feel terrible, actually I found it kind of funny.

Unaligned - as above

10. I shout loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal at a couple of small children. They looked at me funny and smell bad, so I thought it was justified.

Unaligned - as above

I get to the bathroom and pick a stall:

11. I get a cheap laugh out of all the sexually and racially explicit graffiti.

Unaligned

12. I write some of my own.

Slightly Chaotic - Your not hurting anyone, so no evil

13. I copy a few of the more promising phone numbers.

Unaligned

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.

Slightly Chaotic - It's not your place to deal with that

15. I ignore the graffiti.

Unaligned

16. I don't flush.

Slightly Chaotic - Your breaking a social morae

After relieving myself I:

17: Don't wash my hands.

Slightly Chaotic - As above

18. Decide I don't need that sourcebook and leave without making a purchase.

Unaligned

On my way over to the D&D section I spot a couple of dangerously underweight kids looking at the dieting section:

19. I loudly mutter something about kids being too fat these days after making sure they noticed me glancing at them.

Slightly Evil - Your hurting their self esteem for your enjoyment, not cool

20. I inform them that the book they're currently considering is far too conservative and point them to a more extreme choice.

Slightly Evil - As above

21. I lecture them on the dangers of their choices and make them put the book back.

Slightly Lawful - Your not really spending time or effort to help them, so it's not good.

22. I mind my own business.

Neutral - Your probally should do something about it, but it's really not your concern

I've reached the D&D shelf and found the book I wanted, but it's forty-frigging-five dollars:

23. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. Yoink.

Moderatly Evil - Random theft is acually pretty bad

24. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll find it on line.

Slightly Chaotic - Your breaking the rules, but your not hurting anyone.

25. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just rip out the pages I need and no one's the wiser.

Moderatly Chaotic Evil - Vandilism and Theft, you don't care about anything.

26. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need.

Slightly Chaotic - As 24

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.

Slightly Chaotic - As above, just a little more

28. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll replace the price tag with a thirty dollar one.

Slightly Chaotic Evil - Also stupid

29. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without.

Unaligned

30. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without. To cheer myself up I find a copy of Book of Vile Darkness and leave it opened to a particularly "flavorful" illustration in the kid's section.

Slightly Chaotic - Breaking social moraes again

31. Ugh. I'm paying it, but I'll be sure to be rude to the cashier to work out some frustration.

Slightly Chaotic - As above

32. I'll take it! I can't believe it was in stock! I'm grateful to Wizard's for the excellent and reasonably priced book.

Nieve(Unaligned)

[averagejoe]

I probably shouldn't answer these. I make too many assumptions about the surrounding circumstances. For example:

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.

Way evil. The bathroom grafitti contained, among the more lewd writings, advice that would lead to the happiness and eventual enlightenment of anyone who read them. You just hope you erased them before anyone else had time to copy them down.

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.

Good. It was a very evil shrink wrap and, if left unchecked, would have led the world into eventual darkness. Its destruction was both necessary and good.

You see, it's all about context.

[Hallavast]

Ya know, on the topic of Bookstore cashiers... some of them deserve a little rudeness. They can get pretty pissy if you disturb them from whatever book they're reading... I was at a walden books the other day, and I happened upon a certain bit of DnD literature there with a foreward by Vin Diesel. So I looked around the shop for a chair or bench or something (a pretty common sight in most small bookstores- even in other waldens shops). I couldn't find one, so I sat down on the floor next to my friend. Five minutes into my read, the clerk comes over to the shelf where we were sitting and told us, quite rudely, that we weren't allowed to sit on the floor. Come on! What kind of backwards policy is that? Seriously, how does that benefit anyone?

Me: so... (looking around again) where can I sit?
Clerk: there are several benches out in the mall center.
Me: Can I take this out there and read it?
Clerk: NO! If you want to sit and read in a book store, there is a Barnes and Nobles at the other end of the mall (this is false btw), and there is a Borders across the street.
Me: (contemplating whether refusing to move would be worth tangling with mall security...)

I get up and finish the article standing. I'm contemplating going back there in a wheel chair to see what she says...

So Bookstore Cashiers = Evil! thus, rudeness to cashiers = Good!

[Ambrogino]

Bookstores that allow you to sit and read their material are excedingly rare in the UK. I mean, would you want supermarkets to allow people to take bites out of half the fruit to decide which one they wanted - or even then decide they'd got the bit they wanted and go home without buying anything? It confuses me. And people sitting on the floor presents a fire and trip hazard, so they would have been required to move you by Health and Safety statutes.

[Iituem]

Neutral. If an offhanded comment from a random stranger will actually induce these kids to starving themselves to death, then **** 'em.

That has sliiightly CE leanings.

[Mewtarthio]

\Clerk: NO! If you want to sit and read in a book store, there is a Barnes and Nobles at the other end of the mall (this is false btw), and there is a Borders across the street.

"Hey, thanks! Why didn't I think of that earlier? Hey, mister manager! This guy deserves a raise for helpfully telling me to go to your competitors!"

I mean, would you want supermarkets to allow people to take bites out of half the fruit to decide which one they wanted - or even then decide they'd got the bit they wanted and go home without buying anything? It confuses me.

Really? Here in the US, lots of supermarkets have little pieces of various foods on trays and whatnot so that you can try it to see if you like it.

Though I can see why a bookstore would be annoyed if you read, say, a DnD book inside the store. That kind of thing you could easily read one PrC or article or template or what have you and then leave with the knowledge (albeit unable to look it up again). For something like an actual novel, you can't read much during the time in the store. If you try to stay long enough to read a significant portion of the book, I bet they'll claim your messing it up and make you buy it.

[Telonius]

1. I park my beautiful 2004 Mini Cooper so that I partially use four parking spaces, ensuring no jerk accidentally dings my car.

Chaotic Evil. No respect for the lines, or others' need to park.

2. I park my Mini normally, but accidentally slam my door into the car next to mine. I check for damages, but fortunately my door is blemish free. I re-park a few spaces away to alleviate suspicion and disembark.

Chaotic Neutral (leaning chaotic evil). Law says you're responsible for it, but you don't care. Avoiding punishment after the fact doesn't really hurt anybody, but isn't nice.

On the way in I spot a 20$ bill on the ground:
3. I pocket it, who would I turn it in to anyways?
True Neutral. No law covers it, but you didn't even try to see if anybody was around looking for a lost bill.

4. I pocket it without justifying it to myself.
Chaotic neutral. You see a resource and use it for your own benefit.

5. I pocket it and later give it to the SPCA.
Neutral evil. Supporting an evil organization.
EDIT: Blargh, confused them with PETA there. Neutral Good then.

6. I leave it on the ground, I don't need the money as much as someone else might.
Lawful Stupid.

7. I turn it into the front desk for one of the tellers to pocket.
Neutral Good. You respect others' rights.

Before I start shopping I need to use the bathroom, but on the way:

8. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I feel terrible.
Good, undetermined on Law-Chaos. The attitude is what's important to the alignment, not the slip-up. You feel bad, so Good.

9. I Stub my toe and let slip a loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal in front of a couple of small children. I don't feel terrible, actually I found it kind of funny.
Undetermined. Why you think it's funny is important.

10. I shout loud expletive that involves lewd acts and an unwilling barnyard animal at a couple of small children. They looked at me funny and smell bad, so I thought it was justified.
Evil. Vengeful.

I get to the bathroom and pick a stall:
11. I get a cheap laugh out of all the sexually and racially explicit graffiti.
Depends. Was it actually funny?

12. I write some of my own.
Chaotic Evil.

13. I copy a few of the more promising phone numbers.
Neutral.

14. I decide to scribble out every bit of writing.
Neutral Good.

15. I ignore the graffiti.
Neutral.

16. I don't flush.
Chaotic Evil.

After relieving myself I:

17: Don't wash my hands.
Chaotic Stupid.

18. Decide I don't need that sourcebook and leave without making a purchase.
Neutral.

On my way over to the D&D section I spot a couple of dangerously underweight kids looking at the dieting section:

19. I loudly mutter something about kids being too fat these days after making sure they noticed me glancing at them.
(undetermined) Evil.

20. I inform them that the book they're currently considering is far too conservative and point them to a more extreme choice.
(undetermined) Evil.

21. I lecture them on the dangers of their choices and make them put the book back.
(undetermined) Good.

22. I mind my own business.
Neutral.

I've reached the D&D shelf and found the book I wanted, but it's forty-frigging-five dollars:

23. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. Yoink.
Chaotic Evil.

24. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll find it on line.
Neutral.

25. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just rip out the pages I need and no one's the wiser.
Chaotic Evil.

26. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need.
Chaotic Evil.

27. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll just copy down the pages I need. Aww crap, it's shrink wrapped, I guess I'll have to unwrap it.
Chaotic Evil.

28. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I'll replace the price tag with a thirty dollar one.
Chaotic Evil.

29. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without.
Neutral.

30. Like I'm paying that for a sourcebook. I guess I'll go without. To cheer myself up I find a copy of Book of Vile Darkness and leave it opened to a particularly "flavorful" illustration in the kid's section.
Chaotic Evil.

31. Ugh. I'm paying it, but I'll be sure to be rude to the cashier to work out some frustration.
Lawful Neutral, leaning to lawful evil.

32. I'll take it! I can't believe it was in stock! I'm grateful to Wizard's for the excellent and reasonably priced book.
Lawful Stupid.

[OzymandiasVolt]

*makes a derisive comment about moral relativism and goes back to sleep*

[Thomas]

Really? Here in the US, lots of supermarkets have little pieces of various foods on trays and whatnot so that you can try it to see if you like it.

Same here. It's good service, and tends to build up a good reputation for a store, which is obviously important.

Though I can see why a bookstore would be annoyed if you read, say, a DnD book inside the store. That kind of thing you could easily read one PrC or article or template or what have you and then leave with the knowledge (albeit unable to look it up again). For something like an actual novel, you can't read much during the time in the store. If you try to stay long enough to read a significant portion of the book, I bet they'll claim your messing it up and make you buy it.

That's just silly. I never buy a RPG book (even a book I know I'm going to get no matter what) without taking a look inside and getting an idea about what's in there. Why should I buy something just based on its cover? It's not a story - it's a reference manual.

[Piedmon_Sama]

That has sliiightly CE leanings.

Hey hey hey, think of the gene pool!

[Hallavast]

That's just silly. I never buy a RPG book (even a book I know I'm going to get no matter what) without taking a look inside and getting an idea about what's in there. Why should I buy something just based on its cover? It's not a story - it's a reference manual.

Exactly.

Bookstores that allow you to sit and read their material are excedingly rare in the UK. I mean, would you want supermarkets to allow people to take bites out of half the fruit to decide which one they wanted - or even then decide they'd got the bit they wanted and go home without buying anything? It confuses me.

It's not really the same as biting into an apple, you know. When you bite an apple, you pretty much ruin it for everyone else even if you don't buy it. If I don't buy the book, it's still available for other people to buy it. And it takes a lot of time to actually read a whole novel; I'd say 8-12 hours. Eating an entire carrot takes about 2 minutes. If carrots were worth 30 dollars or more, and each carrot you eat tastes drastically differently, then I could see where some people might have a problem, but carrots are just carrots. So if you've had one before, then you know what you're looking for. If I've never even heard of the book, can you really expect me to invest 30 dollars into it before even reading the first chapter?

And people sitting on the floor presents a fire and trip hazard, so they would have been required to move you by Health and Safety statutes.

Yes I agree. Two people sitting on the floor of secluded aisle in a near-abandoned little bookstore is a serious threat to general welfare. In fact, I should get on the telephone right now and suggest the city police to go down to any random highschool (where there are likely dozens of students sitting on the floor against the walls reading, talking, and listening to music) and start arresting the administrators responsible for such lawlessness! Off I go! For the good of the city!