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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default "Theophilite" 3.5 Replaces Cleric at Tier 3? 4? PEACH

    "Theophilites"
    1. What is a Theophilite? Theophilites (theophilus--ancient Greek "Beloved of God") are cleric-replacements in games with Tier 1-2 bans. Instead of the standard Cleric spell progression, Theophilites get domain spells only--one spell per spell level, from the Domain Spell Lists. They also get the Cleric's Turn Undead ability, and good will save.

    2. Theophilite is designed to play as a gestalt class, usually either Warrior//Theophilite or Adept//Theophilite. Basically, limited divine spellcasting is added to a lower-tier class. Rogue//Theophilite is certainly an option, Paladin//Theophilite is a natural fit. I'm not 100% sure whether and how other gestalts would or should work, or if Tier 3 or 4 classes should have to trade off class features for Theophilite spell casting.

    3. The nuts and bolts of the un-gestalted Theophilite class are copied from the NPC Commoner class--d4 HD, 1/2 BAB, 2 + Int skill points, one weapon, no armor. Add good Will save, Turn Undead and domain spells and you have the Theophilite base class.

    Theophilite Gestalts:
    Warrior//Theophilite.
    For the players who want to play your classic D&D Durkon-type cleric. The NPC Warrior class gives full BAB, d8 HD, good Fort save, martial weapons and all armor and shields; Theophilite adds divine spellcasting.


    Theophilite//Adepts. Players who want something more like the traditional shaman/witch-doctor/medicine man/wise woman/fantasy witch can take the Adept NPC class, (d6 HD, 1/2 BAB, good Will save, simple weapons, no armor or shields) and add Turn Undead and domain spells.

    I think most DMs would be okay with adding the Theophilite//Adept's domain spells to the Adept spell list. I'd also let Theophilite//Adepts use their bonus spells for high Wisdom for Adept or domain spells, as soon as they can cast the Domain spell. So a 3rd level Theophilite//Adept with a high Wisdom could cast invisibility at 3rd level instead of 4th.

    Theophilite//Adept Spell Progression Table:
    Spoiler
    Show

    1 1+1
    2 1+1
    3 2+1 0+1
    4 2+1 0+1
    5 2+1 1+1 0+1
    6 2+1 1+1 0+1
    7 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1
    8 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1
    9 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1
    10 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1
    11 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    12 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    13 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    14 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    15 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    16 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    17 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    18 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    19 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    20 3+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 0+1 0+1 0+1 0+1
    Last edited by johnbragg; 2013-12-06 at 02:35 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: "Theophilite" 3.5 Replaces Cleric at Tier 3? 4? PEACH

    Nice.. im not sure that this is 'tier'3 on it own.. though ther Theophilite/adpet most likely is.

    Its a good resructuring of what it means to be a divine servant who has magic.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    erikun's Avatar

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    Jun 2008

    Default Re: "Theophilite" 3.5 Replaces Cleric at Tier 3? 4? PEACH

    Theophilite//Swordsage seems like it would far better than T3, especially with the right domains giving it spells like Wish, Anyspell, and Shadow Conjuration.

    Also, I'm wondering why you don't just turn it into a class by itself. Your idea runs into a big problem in that it doesn't work outside of a gestalt game, for one. (For another, you get a bunch of bonus spell slots for the Adept before you normally would as listed.)
    Thank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
    The full set is here.
    Quote Originally Posted by darthbobcat View Post
    There are no bad ideas, just bad execution.
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    Air Raccoon avatar provided by Ceika
    from the Request an OotS Style Avatar thread



    A big thanks to PrinceAquilaDei for the gryphon avatar!
    original image

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: "Theophilite" 3.5 Replaces Cleric at Tier 3? 4? PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    Theophilite//Swordsage seems like it would far better than T3, especially with the right domains giving it spells like Wish, Anyspell, and Shadow Conjuration.
    I'm very leery of combining it with anything in Tier 3. For that matter, I have doubts about gestalting it with any classes people actually play--why would you play the vanilla version if you could have extra spells for free?

    That's not a problem for Paladin and Ranger--Rangers and Paladins get just get better spellcasting.

    Rogue//Theophilite seems like a good idea thematically. But then what about the player who's stuck with a regular Rogue PC? He feels like kind of a chump.

    Also, I'm wondering why you don't just turn it into a class by itself. Your idea runs into a big problem in that it doesn't work outside of a gestalt game, for one. (For another, you get a bunch of bonus spell slots for the Adept before you normally would as listed.)
    If you mean turn the ungestalted Theophilite into a class by itself, I don't think it works. I don't think the Theophilite abilities make up a whole character class by themselves, even if I used the Expert or Aristocrat chassis. They're an addition, a boost that marks the god's favorite as a cut above the rest.

    The Warrior-Theophilite and Theophilite-Adept are perfectly good classes. But I built them using the NPC class chassis, and "welded on" the cleric abilities as a package. The gestalt rules are just a way of explaining that. (When I posted this a month or two ago as the Pseudocleric-Warrior and Pseudocleric-Adept, there was a lot of confusion as to their spellcasting abilities. Saying "This is a Theophilite. Now gestalt him with something else" is more specific.)

    The gestalting just makes for a shorter rough explanation--"Take the NPC Adept/Warrior class, and add the Cleric's Domain spells and Turn Undead, with four domains instead of two." The chief virtue of the class is that it can be summed up in 20 words.

    I came up with the Pseudocleric-Warrior first using the Warrior chassis, then used the NPC Adept class for the "why does my Priestess of Peace and Mercy wear platemail and smack orcs with a mace" player. (I just thought of the Theophilite name lately.) After that, the next thought was why not do this with Paladins, and I still haven't thought of a reason not to.

    Ngilop:
    The Theophilite//Adept is definitely Tier 3--it gives the Tier 4 Adept some level-appropriate firepower.

    The Warrior//Theophilite might be Tier 4. He's not the undisputed master of one specialty the way the Warblade is with melee combat, and there are plenty of situations where none of the four domains help. Of course, the right domain(s) put him right in Tier 3.
    Last edited by johnbragg; 2013-12-06 at 10:32 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: "Theophilite" 3.5 Replaces Cleric at Tier 3? 4? PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Nice.. im not sure that this is 'tier'3 on it own.. though ther Theophilite/adpet most likely is.

    Its a good resructuring of what it means to be a divine servant who has magic.
    Is there value in deciding the Tier of the ungestalted Theophilite? It's not so much a class as a set of class features that you add to another class chassis.

    And is it even possible to set a Tier for the Theophilite package? Given the limited spell selection, with some domains your Theophilite might lag behind the Healer, or with homebrewed munchkin domains it could be pushing Tier 2. ("Let's see, I want Travel for Fly and Teleport, and a Change domain with Haste, Polymorph and Shapechange...")

    And does that mean that the Theophilite is too Oberoni-reliant?

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