A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Laserlight's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaun7 View Post
    Mechanically speaking I would prefer not to reveal what traits and abilities enemies have, but some of them may come up and in fact alter combat significantly. Should I go ahead and tell you what some of them are to make things streamlined and just ask for minimal metagaming, or keep things on the down-low?
    Either way is fine, as long as we are aware of what our characters should know. Don't want a TPK where you're saying "But I said they were dire squids and your characters knew they've vulnerable to olive oil" and we say "we didn't know we knew that."
    Junior, half orc paladin of the Order of St Dale the Intimidator: "Ah cain't abide no murderin' scoundrel."

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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserlight View Post
    Either way is fine, as long as we are aware of what our characters should know. Don't want a TPK where you're saying "But I said they were dire squids and your characters knew they've vulnerable to olive oil" and we say "we didn't know we knew that."
    ~scratches out dire squid encounter~

    But yeah, I would give you info like that, or you could roll knowledge skills for it.

    IC, this thing is some nasty new critter and you don't really know what it is, although someone with knowledge (Nature) might be able to make some guesses based on the coloration, shape of the body and head, etc.

    EDIT: Double checked, I did include a prompt to roll nature for those interested. But then, I said earlier I would often roll things for you to speed things up.

    I'll make an IC post with what you know or guess.
    Last edited by Nightgaun7; 2014-01-19 at 03:20 PM.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    So there are rules related to Monster Knowledge Checks, based on the scores. I know it's annoying to have to give away info related to monsters, but based on what people roll, they have a 'right' to know any vulnerabilities.

    15 - name, type, keywords
    20 - powers
    25 - vulnerabilities/resistances
    +5 for paragon
    +10 for epic

    Since I guess this sucker is either upper heroic (though it could be paragon) we're looking for rolls in the 20's.

    Nature - (1d20+3)[5](8)
    edit: aaaaand Kriv knows nothing special
    Last edited by Meltheim; 2014-01-19 at 05:04 PM.

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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Meltheim's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    RE: Dazed


    Dazed
    • The creature doesnít get its normal complement of actions on its turn; it can take either a standard, a move, or a minor action. The creature can still take free actions.
    • The creature canít take immediate actions or opportunity actions.
    • The creature grants combat advantage.
    • The creature canít flank.


    The dazed condition is a common way of representing a general state of stupor. Dazed creatures donít act as quickly as normal or respond to danger as readily. A creature might be dazed because it took a hard blow to the head, a spell assaulted its mind, or a prayer called forth a clap of thunder around it.

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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltheim View Post
    So there are rules related to Monster Knowledge Checks, based on the scores. I know it's annoying to have to give away info related to monsters, but based on what people roll, they have a 'right' to know any vulnerabilities.

    15 - name, type, keywords
    20 - powers
    25 - vulnerabilities/resistances
    +5 for paragon
    +10 for epic

    Since I guess this sucker is either upper heroic (though it could be paragon) we're looking for rolls in the 20's.
    1) In my happy little DM-manufactured world, Hydras are new. You guys might be writing the report that someone else reads and makes their knowledge check off of, but you ain't seen none before. Kriv did get a couple of clues from Nature, though.

    2) I know those rules exist, but I don't really like 'em. I'll think about how I want to handle such things. If you have input on this, let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltheim View Post
    Dazed
    • The creature doesnít get its normal complement of actions on its turn; it can take either a standard, a move, or a minor action. The creature can still take free actions.
    • The creature canít take immediate actions or opportunity actions.
    • The creature grants combat advantage.
    • The creature canít flank.
    Spoiler: Rule
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    "Each time the hydra becomes dazed or stunned, it loses one attack on its next turn instead. Multiple such effects stack."


    Given that it's a Save ends effect, it loses that attack until it saves. The other effects of Dazed do not apply. It did lose an attack on its turn though.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    PS: Not all the monsters are going to be "totally new, no idea" but there's a reason the hydra is and you may just find out about it.

    Also I think I mentioned I was surprised nobody made knowledge checks for the treants. Had you, it would have given you some info about the crunch.

    Just working out the kinks in forum and D&D GMing, I guess. Never ran any version of D&D before.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

    Former DM for "A City Alone" [4E D&D - IC, OOC]

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Hehe, you are doing a great job. and I appreciate the value of complex monsters! Now I just need to figure out how to kill it

    anyone else's posts getting eaten?

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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltheim View Post
    anyone else's posts getting eaten?
    Might explain where Rakaydos went
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

    Former DM for "A City Alone" [4E D&D - IC, OOC]

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Hmm, did you forget to move the Hydra on the map on its turn, or is there a problem on my end? In any case, Sathris's position relative to it is the key point, whichever square it's in. :P

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavran View Post
    Hmm, did you forget to move the Hydra on the map on its turn, or is there a problem on my end? In any case, Sathris's position relative to it is the key point, whichever square it's in. :P
    DEN pulled it to him with Come and Get It.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

    Former DM for "A City Alone" [4E D&D - IC, OOC]

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Ah, right, that makes more sense. :)

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Oh, and do you guys like me including pictures?
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

    Former DM for "A City Alone" [4E D&D - IC, OOC]

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Yes! Reference art is always great in my book!

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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    I'm much more a conceptual thinker than visual myself, but they certainly don't hurt at all and anything that potentially increase clarity can't be a bad thing.

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    This is one of the times where I'm not sure how to handle giving you info.

    The hydra has two features that are important here: Threatening Reach, and Many-headed. Threatening Reach means the Hydra should get an opportunity attack on Sathris, and Many-headed means that DEN and Sathris don't get combat advantage for flanking. You can already guess from what happened to DEN that it can attack you if you end your turn too close, although how often is unknown.

    From the GM point of view, it's more difficult to have any immersion or mystery when I tell you "It's large, has threatening reach, and resistance 10 to cold" instead of "The frost giant adopts a low stance, ready to respond to any attempt to move in and strike. Its blue skin glistens with frost and its hoary beard seems almost crystalline" And it makes harder encounters more difficult to make.

    From the player point of view, it's really irritating to (in this case) grant three attacks for an action that you're not sure will have any benefit.

    And on the gripping hand, it makes revisions and changes to actions more frequent.

    I know there's the rules for knowledge checks, but "there's a good roll, here's the statblock" grinds my gears a bit.

    In this particular case, the only thing I can see it really changing is where Sathris moves to, but it's a good testbed for later encounters.

    I'd like some more feedback while we wait.
    Last edited by Nightgaun7; 2014-01-20 at 01:04 PM.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

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  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    From my perspective, I just see once that someone gets attacked at reach and I know it's safer for me to stay at range. Large creatures generally have reach, so having DEN in there is fine if I'm out of reach, because I can heal DEN and we can still do damage.

    Knowing the names of attacks or how they function isn't super important to me, since Kriv won't know "oh yes, he's using the Multi-headed demon stance, I will counter with Crane Technique". However, describing it as "the heads swivel about, looking in all directions, making it impossible to flank effectively" works to communicate without getting too metagamey.

    Resist/Vulnerable 10 and stuff like that is necessary though, so that we don't waste our efforts. You can describe it without giving exact details, like "The radiant energy appears to do more damage than you original thought." or even "the creature appears to be resistant to the cold".

    You can even just use distance as a descriptor - "the heads lash out at anyone who gets near" or "within 10 feet" as opposed to saying "Reach 2". Your example is well written, honestly.
    Last edited by Meltheim; 2014-01-20 at 01:31 PM.

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  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaun7 View Post
    This is one of the times where I'm not sure how to handle giving you info.

    The hydra has two features that are important here: Threatening Reach, and Many-headed. Threatening Reach means the Hydra should get an opportunity attack on Sathris, and Many-headed means that DEN and Sathris don't get combat advantage for flanking. You can already guess from what happened to DEN that it can attack you if you end your turn too close, although how often is unknown.

    From the GM point of view, it's more difficult to have any immersion or mystery when I tell you "It's large, has threatening reach, and resistance 10 to cold" instead of "The frost giant adopts a low stance, ready to respond to any attempt to move in and strike. Its blue skin glistens with frost and its hoary beard seems almost crystalline" And it makes harder encounters more difficult to make.

    From the player point of view, it's really irritating to (in this case) grant three attacks for an action that you're not sure will have any benefit.

    And on the gripping hand, it makes revisions and changes to actions more frequent.

    I know there's the rules for knowledge checks, but "there's a good roll, here's the statblock" grinds my gears a bit.

    In this particular case, the only thing I can see it really changing is where Sathris moves to, but it's a good testbed for later encounters.

    I'd like some more feedback while we wait.
    I think it's simpler than it looks. By my own experience, the best you can do is combine both concepts at the same time: When you're going to give information on the monster that the players should know, be sure to include a nice description on it.

    Add some juicy behavior on the monster as you put an OOC mechanics on it. For instance:

    "The monster's heads are always aware of its surroundings, so it's practically impossible to find a weak spot by attacking it from behind. The length of the necks has enough reach to bite anyone who comes close enough."

    OOC:
    ∑ Threatening Reach: The monster has reach 2
    ∑ Many-headed: The monster doesn't get CA by flanking
    EDIT: Meltheim-Ninja'd!
    Last edited by Wdwune; 2014-01-20 at 01:32 PM.
    Awesome Alderis Kashtar avatar by Meltheim
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    Quote Originally Posted by redzimmer View Post
    Bluff or diplomacy, the penalty's the same. (1d20-1)[1]
    Wow. Just. Wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by redzimmer View Post
    And now see if a random rock on the ground with only a 3-sided dice can roll a better diplomacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    (1d3)[3] random rock

    EDIT: We have a winner. The random rock

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  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Hmm. I feel like in both cases, once it has happened it's best to let the cat out of the bag as it were. You don't have to say "Many-headed" and "Threatening Reach" but you probably do have to say "isn't granting CA from flanking" and "made an OA when you left X square." Or maybe you do have to say Threatening Reach, since we don't plot out every step of our movement generally. On the other hand, maybe we should all just start doing that. It wouldn't be that much more work really. We did talk about being a little confused at times.

    Re: Monster Knowledge, I do sympathize, but it's worth pointing out that those skills are an investment of player power.

    On a related note, knowing Sathris can't flank this thing is very important. Not learning it until trying it is fine, but not ever learning it would be very problematic (lots of inaccurate attack rolls, invalidating my sneak attacks when I have other avenues to activate them I would have taken, etc.) Breaking the "expected" rules makes things interesting, and the possibility that Sathris might actually have to pull out of melee when things get too hot and make ranged attacks, maybe even play with some Hidden stuff - those are all tactically interesting and fun things, but if we fail to communicate it correctly (and we'd both be at fault, really) then I'm just sitting there doing half the damage I should be without knowing why.

  19. - Top - End - #379
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltheim View Post
    However, describing it as "the heads swivel about, looking in all directions, making it impossible to flank effectively" works to communicate without getting too metagamey...You can describe it without giving exact details, like "The radiant energy appears to do more damage than you original thought." or even "the creature appears to be resistant to the cold".

    You can even just use distance as a descriptor - "the heads lash out at anyone who gets near" or "within 10 feet" as opposed to saying "Reach 2". Your example is well written, honestly.
    That's fine by me, as long as y'all are comfortable reading monster descriptions and picking up on those clues. And in conjunction with the next idea...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wdwune View Post
    I think it's simpler than it looks. By my own experience, the best you can do is combine both concepts at the same time...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaun7
    "The monster's heads are always aware of its surroundings, so it's practically impossible to find a weak spot by attacking it from behind. The length of the necks has enough reach to bite anyone who comes close enough."

    OOC:
    ∑ Threatening Reach: The monster has reach 2
    ∑ Many-headed: The monster doesn't get CA by flanking
    I like this, we can give it a shot in the next encounter. I also noticed that Hakka wouldn't perhaps be functioning quite as he thought here (the Hydra has darkvision, so shadows and dim light aren't going to help him hide much imo) and hopefully this will be a good compromise that will avoid having to redo things while not being too meta.

    What I do need to figure out if adopting this, though, is what info should be kept in reserve. For example, with the Hydra here, the fact that it gets a free action attack vs everyone who ends their turn in range is the sort of thing I would like to have be found out by experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavran View Post
    Re: Monster Knowledge, I do sympathize, but it's worth pointing out that those skills are an investment of player power.
    Yeah, the issue from my point of view is how much power it actually gives you. Like I said, I think it should give you some info but how much and how blatantly is the question. Vulnerabilities and resistances I will give to you pretty easily compared to powers, in contrast with the official rules for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavran View Post
    On a related note, knowing Sathris can't flank this thing is very important. Not learning it until trying it is fine, but not ever learning it would be very problematic...if we fail to communicate it correctly then I'm just sitting there doing half the damage I should be without knowing why.
    This is why I am bringing it up now. You tried it, now you know it doesn't work - just trying to decide what the best way to let you know that IC is in this and future encounters.

    Thanks for the input (and patience) everyone. I'll just keep working at it til we find a good way to go.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

    Former DM for "A City Alone" [4E D&D - IC, OOC]

  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    I'm back, been at a fur con without a wifi password. sorry I wasnt able to warn you guys.

    Edit: link to battlemap?
    Last edited by Rakaydos; 2014-01-21 at 01:24 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Meltheim's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Welcome back! Please feel free to kill a hydra

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  22. - Top - End - #382
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    While I'm waiting for the map, here's the arcana for the moss: (d20+20)[20](40)

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Map

    It's the same map every time, and I just put a link in the OP

    EDIT: That is to say, the link will always take you to the current map.
    Last edited by Nightgaun7; 2014-01-21 at 02:38 AM.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

    Former DM for "A City Alone" [4E D&D - IC, OOC]

  24. - Top - End - #384
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Please pick the square you're moving the Hydra to, Rakaydos.
    I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel

    Former DM for "A City Alone" [4E D&D - IC, OOC]

  25. - Top - End - #385
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Long post there Everyone can act now.
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  26. - Top - End - #386
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    You know, if that tunnel by the shoe is open and leads to somewhere above the high tide mark, it sure would be nice to execute a timely and effective withdrawal. Because, ouch.

    /signed
    the punching bag
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    Tactical Precepts: 1) Cause chaos, then exploit it; 2) No plan survives contact with...(sigh)...my subordinates.

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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Yeah I've got one more big heal I can throw, and then a small one but only if we're adjacent. Solo + friends? Evac might be the best option!

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  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    I'm pretty certain that you can make a Shift 0, just like you can Walk less than your speed. More importantly though, is that to actually be Hidden one needs Total Concealment usually. Normally that means Superior Cover, Invisibility,Total Darkness or power fiat.

    I present the ever-useful Rules of Hidden Club thread for more detail.

  29. - Top - End - #389
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    Anyone think I could Intimidate this thing into surrender once its bloodied? I have a +20 intimidate, and his other defenses appear to be low 20's.

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  30. - Top - End - #390
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    Default Re: [4E] A City Alone OOC I

    The thought occurred to me, but I can't recall if that works on monsters. We might have to deal with the jewel first for something like that to work, too. Maybe.

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