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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    unseenmage's Avatar

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    Default Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Create Crawling Claw is a Sor/Wiz 3 spell that turns up to 2xCL severed left hands into Diminutive 1HD Constructs that deal 1 damage with their natural attack and have the Ex ability to deal 2x damage to prone opponents.

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    I've been trying to think of ways to use them. Putting the spell into a Runic Guardian (MM2) as a SLA or into a Spellsong Nightingale is funny, but brings up the question of how Constructs command Constructs, especially with mindlessness.

    The Craft Contingent Spell (CAr) feat allows one contingent spell of whatever level to be placed on each Crawling Claw. There's likely some fun there.

    If Awakened Construct-ed (SC) then they could potentially take class levels which would replace HD.

    They have a Carrying Capacity, though it would be pathetically low. They're tireless so they could be used as a power source, again though they're weak.

    Taking Leadership and having each Cohort/Follower UMD a scroll of Create Crawling Claw could give you a whole lot more actions.

    Hitting them with various Template applying spells could be nice. Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE) + Mineralize Warrior (Un) would be hilarious.

    Are there any Polymorph shenanigans available to them?

    Edit: Could they utilize Teamwork Benefits (PH2pg157) in a similar fashion to Leadership Followers?

    I wonder if they qualify for the Augment Automatons from Dragon 327 pg 72? If so then at creation it's only an additional +8,000gp each to make them intelligent.
    And judging by the Feats in Items sidebar in Arms and Equipment Guide 8k for one feat isn't too bad on average.


    I'm looking for ideas Playground, feel free to cheese it up too. These things suck, but they're cheap and non-Dispel-able so bring it on.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2013-12-11 at 04:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Man improving these things is hard. I would even go so far as to say it's harder than improving Followers. Those guys get skills and feats and class levels and WBL.

    I did note that the spell description neglects to mention exactly whether the severed hands must be from humanoids or if they can be from undead or constructs or even inanimate objects like, for instance, a statue made entirely of severed left hands.

    Then again the RAI is obvious from the creature description. makes me wonder though, could an enterprising crafter just build severed left hand statues and animate those by RAW? It's not really optimizing them but it certainly would mitigate that heinous material component.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Had a DM play an incarnate one of these. It had some undead template on it that gave it a bite attack too (we was all something silly in that game ).

    Anyways. Poisons, awaken construct, equip them with gauntlets and use them as guard dogs for backpacks and saddle bags. A techsmith can communicate with them so they become scouts and informants at that point.

    Think of this: As a necromancer, cut off the left hands of a corpse and affix a stump knife. Two minions from one body! Waste not want not.


    A few pages later you'll find another fun minion spell in the same book.

    Also: Explosive runes in the palm. Now have them grab people's faces.
    Last edited by Vizzerdrix; 2013-12-11 at 03:59 PM.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    Had a DM play an incarnate one of these. It had some undead template on it that gave it a bite attack too (we was all something silly in that game ).

    Anyways. Poisons, awaken construct, equip them with gauntlets and use them as guard dogs for backpacks and saddle bags. A techsmith can communicate with them so they become scouts and informants at that point.

    Think of this: As a necromancer, cut off the left hands of a corpse and affix a stump knife. Two minions from one body! Waste not want not.


    A few pages later you'll find another fun minion spell in the same book.

    Also: Explosive runes in the palm. Now have them grab people's faces.
    Being a Techsmith would definitely help with communication.

    Facehugs! I hadn't thought of facehugs! That's awesome. Contact poisons and Explosive Runes on palms is an excellent idea.

    I don't plan to Awaken them and Incarnate Construct only works on things with a humanoid shape.

    Craft Contingent Spell: Minor Creation: Black Lotus Extract definitely sounds like a plan.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2013-12-11 at 04:12 PM.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Don't overlook that it's as strong as a full-grown human. You know how pirates often have a hook attached to a stump where a hand should be? Apply that in reverse here, so they have a hook where the rest of the body would be, and let them use that hook to apply their full strength hauling small carts, buckets, bags, etc. of stuff for you around.

    Put them in bladed gauntlets so they have a decent attack and AC.

    Mass produce them by getting hold of (or arranging for) a humanoid that regenerates. That could even be you if others are squeamish about the raw material, and provides fuel for bad jokes - "Yes! I defeated him by my own hands!"

    Best part about these guys is they are free, and constructs so (unlike undead) you have no maximum control limit. Line your walls of rooms and corridors with high shelves just up by the ceiling and have these use those as roads to dump vials of alchemical nastiness on people's heads at your command.

    Arm them with hand crossbows, then giggle, as no matter the target's AC one hand in 20 will roll a natural 20 and score a hit, so if you have a big gothic ceiling where hundreds of these are perched, that's ten or twenty guaranteed hits.

    Or you could go legit and become the county rat-catcher, sending your seething swarms of diminutive minions down cracks and tunnels, wiping out vermin and really cleaning up cities.

    For that matter, garbage collection, parcel delivery... never forget they are as strong as adult humans and move almost as fast. There are plenty of mindless tasks for them to do without bothering anybody, except with their somewhat creepy appearance. Milk maids, dusting shelves in a wizard's library, or even gathering eggs from under chickens.

    Every sheep or livestock you own could wear one of these like a cow bell, and when a predator attacks, Wham! Better than a sheep dog protection.

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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Awaken one and give it enough class levels to cast the spell. Then have that one make all of it's minions gather more hands so it can cast the spell on it. Worldwide left-hand apocalypse will eventually ensue(or some adventurers will have to go hand hunting, instead of head hunting)
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    I never understood why they was considered constructs, but hey, extra minions is a good thing
    I like to put them in a bag, and have another minion carrythem into melee and release them
    ive also used bags of them as catapult ammo
    more fun than mage hand
    I never thought of trying to awaken them, but im thinking with there size, would make good rogues, im thinking a swarm of them with sneak attack

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skysaber View Post
    snip

    Best part about these guys is they are free, and constructs so (unlike undead) you have no maximum control limit. Line your walls of rooms and corridors with high shelves just up by the ceiling and have these use those as roads to dump vials of alchemical nastiness on people's heads at your command.

    snip
    There's a limit on how many one character can make. It's nebulously worded so it could mean that only so many can be made per casting of the spell or that that's all a given character can make ever. RAW is aggravating.

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    you could do this...


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    Orc in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    There's a limit on how many one character can make. It's nebulously worded so it could mean that only so many can be made per casting of the spell or that that's all a given character can make ever. RAW is aggravating.
    Actually, it's not all that unclear. Compare it to the classic staple of Animate Dead. That spell clearly delineates how much can be created per spell, and lists separately how much can be controlled total. 2 data points.

    Fireball, on the other hand, only tells you what damage is done per spell. There is no limit inherent or implied on how much damage you can ever do total with that spell.

    Create Crawling Claw only lists what it does per spell, like fireball. If we assume a limit that is not stated, then we throw potentially massive portions of the game out of whack because it's not worded any differently than fireball or hundreds of other spells. So you would not ever be able to create more than a single casting's worth of Wall of Stone, for instance.

    You may house-rule such a change as your own personal interpretation, since you might feel the spell is overpowered otherwise. But it gives no total, overarching maximum like Animate Dead does. So unless you are going to slap ALL spells with the same "single casting is the total maximum", so you'll never be able to create more than a few gallons with Create Water, or more than a few hours total worth of Mount, then it's got no upper limit.

    No, the spell says what the spell says. Adding interpretations to restrict that throws so much of the game into question that it does far more harm than good.

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skysaber View Post
    Actually, it's not all that unclear. Compare it to the classic staple of Animate Dead. That spell clearly delineates how much can be created per spell, and lists separately how much can be controlled total. 2 data points.

    Fireball, on the other hand, only tells you what damage is done per spell. There is no limit inherent or implied on how much damage you can ever do total with that spell.

    Create Crawling Claw only lists what it does per spell, like fireball. If we assume a limit that is not stated, then we throw potentially massive portions of the game out of whack because it's not worded any differently than fireball or hundreds of other spells. So you would not ever be able to create more than a single casting's worth of Wall of Stone, for instance.

    You may house-rule such a change as your own personal interpretation, since you might feel the spell is overpowered otherwise. But it gives no total, overarching maximum like Animate Dead does. So unless you are going to slap ALL spells with the same "single casting is the total maximum", so you'll never be able to create more than a few gallons with Create Water, or more than a few hours total worth of Mount, then it's got no upper limit.

    No, the spell says what the spell says. Adding interpretations to restrict that throws so much of the game into question that it does far more harm than good.
    Well thank you for the clarification. I'm still relearning elements of 3.x after a long hiatus. Random stuff still throws me off. Thanks again.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    You need to get Swarmfighting on these guys somehow. Chained heroics, maybe?

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    You could make a few million and put a castle on their backs.

    Can they Aid Another on anything useful?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    Quote Originally Posted by thisisacat View Post
    Can they Aid Another on anything useful?
    if u go back, way back, to dragon #32 Ed Greenwood, the creator of crawling claws states
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    Claws are controlled either directly or by 'programming' (see below) and cannot be changed from one method of control to the other after the final incantation is made. this spell either names the controller, who must be a Magic User or a Cleric involved in the creation, or (in the case of 'programming') contains a command stating (in 24 words or less) what action the claws are to take. This operates in the same way that a Magic Mouth spell can be set to speak when a certain condition is met-i.e. "a bearded man in black and silver approaches the alter"

    granted the game has progressed and been updated and errated in the more than 30 years since they were created

    and from Monsters of Faerun
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    They are generally too stupid to be assigned unsupervised tasks more complicated than guard duty


    I would geuss by giving them simple tasks, similar to what an unseen servent could do, it might be possible to allow them to aid another in some circumstances

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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    I suppose you could just have them Aid Another on your attacks/AC.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimize Create Crawling Claw (MC:MoF30)

    making larger crawling claws would make them better, use giants, lol, somewhere out there, there is a tribe of angry hill giants all missing their left hands, I might have to use this one.
    that would make them small? instead of tiny? then enlarge them bigger, lol

    and since they are constructs buffing them with things that improve constructs or bone, ive never done much with constructs, but im sure someone has rules for it

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