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    Default The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    The Cleric

    Alignment: Must be within one step of their deity’s.
    Hit Die: d8

    Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) Χ 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0 lv 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Channeling, Domains 5 3 — — — — — — — —
    2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Divine Gift, Weapon Focus 6 4 — — — — — — — —
    3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Turn or Rebuke Undead 6 5 3 — — — — — — —
    4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Divine Gift 6 6 4 — — — — — — —
    5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Weapon Specialization 6 6 5 3 — — — — — —
    6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Divine Gift 6 6 6 4 — — — — — —
    7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Bonus Domain 6 6 6 5 3 — — — — —
    8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Divine Gift 6 6 6 6 4 — — — — —
    9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Atonement 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — — —
    10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Divine Gift 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — — —
    11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Imbued Divinity 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — — —
    12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Divine Gift 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — — —
    13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Rising Church (followers) 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 — —
    14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Bonus Domain, Divine Gift 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 — —
    15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Divine Cloak 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 —
    16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Divine Gift 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 —
    17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Divine Cohort 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Divine Gift 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Weapon Mastery 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5
    20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Ascension, Divine Gift 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency- A cleric is proficient with all simple weapons, his deity’s favored weapon, and with light and medium armor and shields (except for tower shields)

    Channeling: Good-aligned clerics channel positive energy, while evil-aligned clerics channel negative energy. Neutral clerics much choose whether to channel positive or negative energy. This choice determines which spell list he uses and whether he turns or rebukes undead.

    Spells: A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the appropriate cleric spell list-- Positive Energy or Negative Energy-- based on which energy type he channels. To cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric's spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric's Wisdom modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

    A cleric need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

    Domains: A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric selects two domains from among those normally offered by his deity. He adds the spells to his list of spells known, as well as the granted power.

    Divine Gift: At 2nd level, and every subsequent even-numbered level, a cleric may chose one cleric spell from the original cleric spell list of and add it to his spell list. The chosen spell must be of a level he could normally cast.

    Weapon Focus: At 2nd level, a cleric gains the Weapon Focus feat with his deity's favored weapon. If the character already has that feat, he can choose a different one.

    Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol. Clerics who channel positive energy turn undead, and those who channel negative energy rebuke undead.

    A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

    Sidebar: Revised Turn/Rebuke Rules
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    Turning Undead

    All undead within 60 feet must make a Will save, with a DC of 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Charisma modifier. They gain a bonus on this save equal to their Turn Resistance. On a failure, they are turned, with varying effects based on how many hit die they have relative to the cleric:
    Hit Die Effect
    1/2 level or fewer Instantly destroyed
    1/2 level to level Panicked for 1d4 rounds, and frightened for 1 minute
    level to level + Charisma modifier Frightened for 1d4 rounds and shaken for 1 minute
    level + Charisma modifier or higher shaken for 1d4 rounds
    Undead suffer fear effects from turning or rebuking despite their normal immunities.

    Rebuking Undead

    Rebuking Undead works identically to turning undead, but creatures who would be destroyed are instead dominated. At any one time, a cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

    Clerics who channel opposite energies may attempt to counter each other's turn or rebuke attempts. Doing so works just like counterspelling using dispel magic, using their cleric level + charisma modifier in place of the caster level check. Clerics may attempt to break each other's control over turned or rebuked undead in the same manner.


    Weapon Specialization: At 5th level, a cleric gains the Weapon Specialization feat with her deity's favored weapon. If she already has that feat, she can choose a different one.

    Bonus Domain: At 7th level, and again at 14th level, a cleric selects one addition domain from among those normally offered by his deity. He adds the spells to his list of spells known, as well as the granted power.

    Atonement (Sp): Beginning at 9th level, a cleric may use atonement once per week as a spell-like ability. The casting time remains one hour, but he does not need to provide the focus or pay an experience cost. If the experience cost would normally be mandated, the subject must undertake a quest or some other sort of penance on behalf of the deity before the benefits of the atonement spell kick in.

    Imbued Divinity (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, a cleric is imbued with enough divine energy that his body begins to change. If he channels positive energy, he gains DR 5/Evil, and if he channels negative energy, he gains DR 5/Good.

    In addition, he may grow wings as a full-round action, granting himself a fly speed equal to his base land speed with average maneuverability. If he already had wings, he instead grows a second pair, improving his maneuverability by one step and gaining a 30-foot bonus to fly speed. While his wings are active, he loses the damage reduction granted by this ability. He may retract the wings with another full-round action.

    Finally, he no longer needs to provide a holy symbol to cast his spells-- his entire body counts as a holy symbol.

    Rising Church (Ex): At 13th level, a cleric gains the benefits of the Leadership feat, with the following exceptions. His leadership score is equal to his cleric level plus his inherent charisma modifier (ie, before any temporary bonuses or magic items), and he receives twice as many followers as normal. However, his cohort is only half the normal level, and he must be a cleric of the same deity (or cause) as the cleric. In addition, the cohort only levels up when the cleric raises his leadership score, not from gaining experience points.

    Divine Cloak (Ex): Beginning at 15th level, a cleric gains spell resistance equal to 15+his cleric level against [Evil] spells (if he channels positive energy) or [Good] spells (if he channels negative energy).

    Divine Cohort (Ex): At 17th level, a cleric's deity sends him a group of three powerful outsiders to serve him. These beings are not dominated or otherwise magically compelled— they serve the cleric loyally and will aid him in combat, but they will not obey commands which are self-destructive or radically opposed to their nature. If slain, a replacement arrives 1d6 days later. The type of servant depends on the deity's alignment.

    Clerics whose deities who are neutral on one alignment axis (Good-Evil or Law-Chaos) must pick one or the other-- a cleric of a NG deity could recieve a cohort of Couatls or Lillends, while a cleric of a CN god could be granted a cohort of Lillends or Vrocks. A cleric of a true neutral deity simply picks one of the four options. All cohorts must be of the same type-- the cleric cannot "mix-and-match" from among the available options.
    • Lawful Good— Couatls
    • Chaotic Good— Lillends
    • Lawful Evil— Erinyes
    • Chaotic Evil— Vrocks


    Weapon Artistry: At 19th level, a cleric gains the benefits of the Crushing Strike, Driving Attack, or Slashing Flurry feat (whichever is appropriate) while wielding his deity's favored weapon.

    Ascension: At 20th level, a cleric is ready to sit at his god’s right-hand side. His type changes to Outsider (native) and he gains 60ft darkvision and immunity to sleep, poison, and paralysis. The damage reduction granted by Imbued Divinity improves to 10/Good or Evil, his fly speed improves by 30 feet, the maneuverability improves to Good, and he may extend his wings without losing his damage reduction. In addition, he gains benefits depending on his alignment:

    A cleric who channels positive energy gains the Angel subtype, granting him:
    • Immunity to acid, cold, and petrifaction
    • Resistance to electricity and fire 10
    • +4 racial bonus on saves against poison
    • Protective Aura (Su)- Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the cleric. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals cleric level). This aura can be dispelled, but the cleric can create it again as a free action on his next turn.
    • Tongues (Su)- The cleric may speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equals cleric level). This ability is always active.


    A cleric who channels negative energy gains:
    • Immunity to fire, poison, and electricity
    • Resistance 10 to acid and cold
    • Protective Aura (Su)- Against attacks made or effects created by good creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the cleric. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against good effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals cleric level). This aura can be dispelled, but the cleric can create it again as a free action on his next turn.
    • Telepathy (100ft)


    Cleric Spells

    Positive Energy Spell List
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    0 Level Cleric (+) Spells (Orisons)
    • Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
    • Cure Minor Wounds: Cures 1 point of damage.
    • Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
    • Light: Object shines like a torch.
    • Purify Food and Drink: Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
    • Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.


    1st Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
    • Bless Water (M): Makes holy water.
    • Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
    • Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (whichever match your alignment): +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
    • Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.


    2nd Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
    • Align Weapon: Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
    • Consecrate (M): Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
    • Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
    • Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.


    3rd Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Create Food and Water: Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
    • Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
    • Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
    • Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
    • Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies -1 penalty.
    • Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.


    4th Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
    • Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
    • Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
    • Divination (M): Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
    • Imbue with Spell Ability: Transfer spells to subject.


    5th Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Commune (X): Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
    • Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
    • Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
    • Hallow (M): Designates location as holy.
    • Raise Dead (M): Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.


    6th Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
    • Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
    • Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
    • Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
    • Heroes’ Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.


    7th Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.
    • Dictum or Word of Chaos (Whichever matches your alignment): Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens non (lawful or Chaotic) subjects.
    • Holy Word: Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.
    • Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
    • Resurrection (M): Fully restore dead subject.


    8th Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
    • Cloak of Chaos or Shield of Law (Whichever matches your alignment) F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
    • Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 80-ft.-radius.
    • Holy Aura (F): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.


    9th Level Cleric (+) Spells
    • Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
    • Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
    • True Resurrection (M): As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.



    Negative Energy Spell List
    Spoiler
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    0 Level Cleric (-) Spells (Orisons)
    • Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
    • Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
    • Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
    • Inflict Minor Wounds: Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
    • Light: Object shines like a torch.
    • Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.


    1st Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Bane: Enemies take -1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
    • Curse Water (M): Makes unholy water.
    • Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
    • Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Whichever match your alignment): +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
    • Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.


    2nd Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Align Weapon: Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
    • Spiritual Weapon: Magic weapon attacks on its own.
    • Death Knell: Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
    • Desecrate (M): Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
    • Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).


    3rd Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Animate Dead (M): Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
    • Bestow Curse: -6 to an ability score; -4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
    • Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease.
    • Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
    • Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
    • Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (whichever match your alignment): As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.


    4th Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
    • Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
    • Divination (M): Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
    • Inflict Critical Wounds: Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
    • Poison: Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.


    5th Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Commune (X): Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
    • Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
    • Raise Dead (M): Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
    • Slay Living: Touch attack kills subject.
    • Unhallow (M): Designates location as unholy


    6th Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
    • Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
    • Create Undead: Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
    • Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
    • Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target.


    7th Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Blasphemy: Kills, paralyzes, weakens, or dazes nonevil subjects.
    • Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.
    • Destruction (F): Kills subject and destroys remains.
    • Dictum or Word of Chaos (Whichever matches your alignment): Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens non (lawful or Chaotic) subjects.
    • Resurrection (M): Fully restore dead subject.


    8th Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Cloak of Chaos or Shield of Law (Whichever matches your alignment) (F): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
    • Create Greater Undead (M): Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
    • Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 80-ft.-radius.
    • Unholy Aura (F): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.


    9th Level Cleric (-) Spells
    • Implosion: Kills one creature/round.
    • Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
    • True Resurrection (M): As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.



    ACF: Cloistered Cleric
    Hit Die: d6
    Base Attack Bonus: Poor
    Class Skills: The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

    Class Features: The cloistered cleric has all the standard cleric class features, except as noted below.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Cloistered clerics are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor.

    Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level. A cloistered cleric gains this ability at first level.

    Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: In addition to any domains selected from his deity's list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain (even if the Knowledge domain is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Knowledge domain granted power and adds the spells to his list of spells known.

    Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Artistry: A Cloistered Cleric does not gain these class features.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2018-02-25 at 02:39 PM.

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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    I'm liking the homebrew, will PEACH when I have the time, but for clarification, a cleric knows all spells on their positive OR negative list and can cast spontaneously? In addition, divine gift allows them to add any cleric spell at all to their known list, akin to an advanced learning ability?
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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Looks very nice overall; I particularly like the much-improved turn undead and the focus on domains. A few nitpicks and a concern, however:

    1) Under Divine Gift, it says a "miracle worker" can choose a spell from "the cleric list" to add to his own list. Miracle worker should be changed to cleric, obviously, and it should specify that you mean the standard cleric list because otherwise "a cleric can add a spell from the cleric list to his list" doesn't make much sense.

    2) "Ascension" is misspelled in the ability description.

    3) When a neutral cleric chooses his divine cohort, can he mix and match (e.g. a NG one picks two couatls and a lilend) or does he choose just one type, and if it's the former can he just pick once or can he mix things up again when replacing deceased divine cohorts?

    4) Similarly, for Ascension's "opposite alignment" DR, does a non-neutral cleric get both alignment components (e.g. a LG cleric gets DR X/chaos and evil), or just one, or does that only refer to the good/evil part of their alignment to go with the angel/fiend split?


    And now for the concern: This cleric gets a lot of spells known, much more than your other full list casters and, in particular, many more high-level spells. The five orthodox and four heterodox domains add nine spells known of each level (which is at least double the spells of 7th, 8th, and 9th level than your other casters get at all), plus 3+ spells from the base list per spell level, plus 10 additional spells of his choice learned in a less restrictive manner than the other casters' Eclectic Learning equivalents.

    While cleric domains are certainly limited as far as spell choices go, the other fixed-list casters don't get a similar variety of choice and you even went out of your way to not give your conjurer all the summon monster spells to cut down on their ability to access a broader range of effects through summoned monsters' SLAs. It seems unfair to give the cleric the most spells like he's always had when the whole point of the project is to narrow the breadth of the different caster concepts--not to mention that letting clerics pick up too many domains outside of their god's portfolio dilutes their theme and lets them start stepping on others' toes again.

    I would suggest doing the following:
    • Cut it back down to two domains at first level rather than five (which also ameliorates the issue of some gods having five domains and locking their clerics into one set, some having more than five and giving their clerics a bit more choice, and some having fewer than five and giving their clerics free reign with the rest of their domains), including their granted powers.
    • Remove the Domain Power class feature at all levels except fifth (because they "unbalance" the Special column by giving two features at once) and change that to simply give a "+1" for all known domain powers--1 more daily reroll for Luck, an extra +1 CL for Knowledge, +1 turning attempt for Fire, +1 rogue class skill for Trickery, and so forth.
    • Swap the 11th and 19th level Heterodoxy features to something else (Orthodoxy? Enlightenment? Bonus Domain?) that grants one of the cleric's god's domains and its granted power.
    • Change the remaining two Heterodoxies so that you only learn up to 6th level spells from heterodox domains and don't get their domain power.

    That results in a cleric with only 6 domains and 4 domain powers total and who only gets 4 domain spells of each of 7th, 8th, and 9th level. That's a much more manageable selection of spells, and still allows customization without letting clerics go so far out of their deity's domain list.
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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by ddude987 View Post
    I'm liking the homebrew, will PEACH when I have the time, but for clarification, a cleric knows all spells on their positive OR negative list and can cast spontaneously? In addition, divine gift allows them to add any cleric spell at all to their known list, akin to an advanced learning ability?
    Yes, and yes. I'll edit for clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    3) When a neutral cleric chooses his divine cohort, can he mix and match (e.g. a NG one picks two couatls and a lilend) or does he choose just one type, and if it's the former can he just pick once or can he mix things up again when replacing deceased divine cohorts?
    Hmm. I'd have to go with "no mixing and matching." Ideally I'd be able to do "generic good" and "generic evil" outsiders, but there don't appear to be any good choices, at least without going bookdiving. (Avorals would work for good, I guess, but the only viable evil option in core is the Cauchemar, and I really don't like that one.)

    4) Similarly, for Ascension's "opposite alignment" DR, does a non-neutral cleric get both alignment components (e.g. a LG cleric gets DR X/chaos and evil), or just one, or does that only refer to the good/evil part of their alignment to go with the angel/fiend split?
    The good/evil part. I'll edit for clarity.


    And now for the concern: This cleric gets a lot of spells known, much more than your other full list casters and, in particular, many more high-level spells. The five orthodox and four heterodox domains add nine spells known of each level (which is at least double the spells of 7th, 8th, and 9th level than your other casters get at all), plus 3+ spells from the base list per spell level, plus 10 additional spells of his choice learned in a less restrictive manner than the other casters' Eclectic Learning equivalents.
    Yeah, I had some concerns about that one. On the one hand, domains are more limited, and many contain crappy or redundant spells... but others don't, and the number does get pretty high...

    I would suggest doing the following:
    • Cut it back down to two domains at first level rather than five (which also ameliorates the issue of some gods having five domains and locking their clerics into one set, some having more than five and giving their clerics a bit more choice, and some having fewer than five and giving their clerics free reign with the rest of their domains), including their granted powers.
    • Two seems kind of low, even if we stick granted powers back on...

    • Remove the Domain Power class feature at all levels except fifth (because they "unbalance" the Special column by giving two features at once) and change that to simply give a "+1" for all known domain powers--1 more daily reroll for Luck, an extra +1 CL for Knowledge, +1 turning attempt for Fire, +1 rogue class skill for Trickery, and so forth.
    I don't think the "+1" would work-- there's too many odd domain abilities that would require clarification. If "unbalancing the special column" your only objection? I kind of liked doing it like this, as it makes dipping less attractive.

  5. Swap the 11th and 19th level Heterodoxy features to something else (Orthodoxy? Enlightenment? Bonus Domain?) that grants one of the cleric's god's domains and its granted power.
Hmm...

  • Change the remaining two Heterodoxies so that you only learn up to 6th level spells from heterodox domains and don't get their domain power.
  • I kind of like that one.

    What if we cut Heterodoxy back to, say, 7th and 14th, and have it swap out one of your domains rather than just adding a domain. That leaves us at about 11 spells/level (5 base + 5 domain + 1 gift), which is on par with the other fixed-list casters in the project.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    awesome!!!

    I like check that.. LOVE ho wyou took the cleri cback to his original roots of only being allowed X spells, and not every divine spell ever cuz. Like WoTC felt he needed in 3rd ed!


    I have to agree that 5 domains might be a bit much.. id settle for 3 or 4 myself, I think that combined with the spell list is going to be pretty wide ragning with selection of spells

    with the capstone
    so its basically Holy/unholy aura without spell resistance but with immunity to 3rd and lower spells?

    with teh divine companions there are enough outsiders I think to put down for each respective alignemnt like modron, guardianals, or slaad as a choice for the neutral companions.. but that might be too much?

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Hmm. I'd have to go with "no mixing and matching." Ideally I'd be able to do "generic good" and "generic evil" outsiders, but there don't appear to be any good choices, at least without going bookdiving. (Avorals would work for good, I guess, but the only viable evil option in core is the Cauchemar, and I really don't like that one.)
    The restriction to core does make that more difficult. Perhaps you could find generic outsiders you like outside of core, and say "If you have sourcebook they come from, a NG cleric gets a [NG outsider] and a NE cleric gets a [NE outsider], otherwise they gain the outsiders corresponding to one of the two adjacent alignments (their choice)."

    Two seems kind of low, even if we stick granted powers back on...
    Again, it's kind of low for creating a domain-focused exemplar of a deity's power, but it's kind of high for creating a fixed-list caster. Think of it this way: if you wouldn't be comfortable with giving your conjurer the Celestial, Creation, Summoner, Portal, and Rune domains at 1st level to add a bunch of extra summoning and plane-hopping options to his spell list, or giving your warden the Community, Courage, Liberation, Protection, and Renewal domains at 1st level to add a bunch of extra buffing options to his list, you shouldn't give your cleric five domains either.

    I don't think the "+1" would work-- there's too many odd domain abilities that would require clarification. If "unbalancing the special column" your only objection? I kind of liked doing it like this, as it makes dipping less attractive.
    The +1 was just a generic suggestion for a domain-boosting ability, and the "unbalanced special column" complaint is just my dislike of the cleric gaining two class features and a new spell level in the same level; the main point of reworking Domain Power was to make it so the cleric only gained the domain powers of orthodox domains, to emphasize them more now that they get fewer domains overall.

    If you want to make dipping less attractive you could just make Domain Power let him use domain powers at all so 1-level dippers don't get them. You could also just leave Domain Power as-is while reducing the number of domains to 6, but that wouldn't give you the same ratio of domains to domain powers that you had before, so it's up to you whether having that is important to you.

    What if we cut Heterodoxy back to, say, 7th and 14th, and have it swap out one of your domains rather than just adding a domain. That leaves us at about 11 spells/level (5 base + 5 domain + 1 gift), which is on par with the other fixed-list casters in the project.
    So keep 5 of the cleric's god's domains at 1st level, swap out a domain at 7th and 14th for an orthodox or heterodox domain, and come up with something else to fill in the resulting gaps at 11th and 17th? That works, depending on how you fill the gaps. It does mean that someone who likes their initial domains and wants to keep them all essentially gets no benefit from Heterodoxy, though, so maybe if you threw them a bone (like, say, letting them count all the spells from a heterodox domain as being on their list for the purposes of using magic items instead of actually learning the spells) that would work better.
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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    awesome!!!
    Thanks.

    with the capstone
    so its basically Holy/unholy aura without spell resistance but with immunity to 3rd and lower spells?
    Not really? It's the generic abilities for the Angel subtype and a composite of Demons and Devils.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    The restriction to core does make that more difficult. Perhaps you could find generic outsiders you like outside of core, and say "If you have sourcebook they come from, a NG cleric gets a [NG outsider] and a NE cleric gets a [NE outsider], otherwise they gain the outsiders corresponding to one of the two adjacent alignments (their choice)."
    That could work. I'll have to do some digging.

    So keep 5 of the cleric's god's domains at 1st level, swap out a domain at 7th and 14th for an orthodox or heterodox domain, and come up with something else to fill in the resulting gaps at 11th and 17th? That works, depending on how you fill the gaps. It does mean that someone who likes their initial domains and wants to keep them all essentially gets no benefit from Heterodoxy, though, so maybe if you threw them a bone (like, say, letting them count all the spells from a heterodox domain as being on their list for the purposes of using magic items instead of actually learning the spells) that would work better.
    Not a bad idea.

    Now then, gaps at 11 and 17... maybe move the wings forward to 11, and... err... something, something...

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Suggetion: replace Cure/Inflict Critical Wounds with Restoration.
    It's a must-have spell.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Turn/Rebuke scores should be clear about result being equal/lower/higher than 1/2 level / level / level + Cha-bonus.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Honestly, even with your nerf relative to the original posting, this cleric is still way more versatile than your other fixed list casters. Just compare the raw spells known to him to any of the others. He doesn't have meaningfully fewer spells known baseline, and gains 45 bonus spells from domains, evenly distributed across all spell levels.

    I'd suggest two things:
    1) Straight up remove a lot of the healing from this list. You added a PrC to turn any fixed list caster into a healer. What was the point of that if your cleric gets the best healing for free? If you want a cleric to still be able to heal baseline, maybe give them the ability to use Turn Undead for some sort of healing, but cut the majority of it from the spell list. This helps reduce the number of spells you have as a baseline, and if someone wants access to healing without the prestige class that's what the healing domain is for.

    2) Rather than giving full access to domain spells, and then make them wait for the power, I'd reverse that. Give the cleric full access to the domain powers, and instead of Heterodoxy give them an Eclectic learning equivalent that rather than drawing on any set list, draws from their domain spells. Since after the above, the Cleric could be a little light on spells compared to the other classes, you can even let them get it a little more often than normal. But either way getting a spell every other level, or even one spell a level, is going to be far easier to balance than getting 5 spells every 2 levels every time. It's just too much.

    If the intent actually is to make the cleric almost entirely dependent on their domains, then you could go the other way around: Your spell list is your 5 domains. You get to pick generic Cleric spells via Eclectic learning every other level. Because seriously, 5 spells known per level that can be cherry picked the way domains are is enough flexibility to carry a class by itself, and likely end up with more versatility than any of your other casters. Combining that with other stuff and you're just begging for everyone to ignore the classes you've crafted and instead make a Cleric with domains that lets them do that.
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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Grod, I really like your Spontaneous Cleric, it's very elegant and has great flow. I too "fixed" the Cleric by making it a spontaneous caster relying heavily on their domains.

    I do have concerns about how many Domains you are granting and the sheer choice you are granting.

    I'd recommend dropping Domains known to 3 and your heterodoxy is just asking for abuse. IMO the class is amazing with a simple two or three domains known and leave it at that. You've already given the ability to cherry pick spells and add them to their list already.

    Great job Grod.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Alright, Heterodoxy is gone.

    As I see it, there are two options I can take, here:
    • Cut out the "generic" list altogether, and have your spell list be solely based on 5 domains plus divine gift spells. I might go the route of my old Miracle Worker and offer a handful of generic domains that can be picked in place of a normal domain, to help mitigate gods with too many crappy or redundant domains.
    • Keep the generic list, but cut the number of domains way back-- maybe two at first level, plus one at 7th and 14th. That gives us around 10 spells/spell level.


    Which sounds better?

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Alright, Heterodoxy is gone.
    [*]Keep the generic list, but cut the number of domains way back-- maybe two at first level, plus one at 7th and 14th. That gives us around 10 spells/spell level.[/LIST]

    Which sounds better?
    I like this. Keep the requirement of being Diety or theme related and you should be good.

    I really like the class fix.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Alright, Heterodoxy is gone.

    As I see it, there are two options I can take, here:
    • Cut out the "generic" list altogether, and have your spell list be solely based on 5 domains plus divine gift spells. I might go the route of my old Miracle Worker and offer a handful of generic domains that can be picked in place of a normal domain, to help mitigate gods with too many crappy or redundant domains.
    • Keep the generic list, but cut the number of domains way back-- maybe two at first level, plus one at 7th and 14th. That gives us around 10 spells/spell level.


    Which sounds better?
    7th, 13th & 19th would also be Ok, I guess (pushing Divine Cohort down to 17th).
    Whatever you do, don't nix the generic list - it's a solid baseline (the only successful baseline I've seen so far - and please reconsider my previous suggestion regarding Restoration instead of ...Critical...).

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Btw, I'm working on a big project to bring all full casters to low T2 (along with putting non-full-casters at T3, which I already did).

    It's gonna take quite a while for it to mature, but once it does, my cleric remake is gonna draw heavily from this one (turn undead, the generic list, divine gift - all wonderfully executed), but it'll be a little less powerful and med. BAB will be reserved for one of the class variants.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Alrightie then. Cut back domain access, and stole a few class features from the Favored Soul (which, needless to say, shouldn't be used when this guy is in the game) to make up for it. Also threw up a Cloistered Cleric ACF.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-12-13 at 08:59 PM.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Nitpick: you forgot to remove Domain Power from level 20.

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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    I like the changes. One last nitpick, sorry: The bolded words in the following should be changed to cleric instead of deity or miracle worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Cohort
    Deities who are neutral on one alignment axis (Good-Evil or Law-Chaos) must pick one or the other-- a NG deity could dispatch a cohort of Couatls or Lillends, while a CN god could grant a cohort of Lillends or Vrocks. A true neutral deity simply picks one of the four options. All cohorts must be of the same type--a neutral god won't "mix-and-match" from among the available options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension
    A cleric who channels positive energy gains the Angel subtype, granting him:
    • Protective Aura (Su)- Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the miracle worker. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals miracle worker level). This aura can be dispelled, but the miracle worker can create it again as a free action on its next turn.
    • Tongues (Su)- The miracle worker may speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equals miracle worker level). This ability is always active.


    A cleric who channels negative energy gains:
    • Protective Aura (Su)- Against attacks made or effects created by good creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the miracle worker. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against good effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals miracle worker level). This aura can be dispelled, but the miracle worker can create it again as a free action on its next turn.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2013-12-14 at 05:30 PM.
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    Default Re: The Cleric (Fixed-List Caster Project). 3.5, PEACH

    Undercooked copypasta is undercooked. Thanks, guys.

    @PairO'DiceLost: the "deity" thing was intentional. I'll try to make that more clear.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2013-12-14 at 06:55 PM.

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