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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    qazzquimby's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    I had thought you get a tier every 5 levels, at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20, so tiers 5 and 6 would be epic.

  2. - Top - End - #392
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Milo v3's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    After a few conversations, I have decided to convert anabolist into a non-gramarist class (though probably give it Gramarie abilities to replace the grammarist stuff). This means that there wouldn't be Organic Science, though I still want a "BIOY Specialist class" and I still want Leviathans.... sooooooooo...... I started working on the Geneticist when I realized I could also fix some of Omnicrat's issues with physician. Soo... umm.. yeah.

    Pastebin "Sketch"
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  3. - Top - End - #393
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    qazzquimby's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Convert so that the gramaric Anabolist will no longer be with us? :(
    This would make me very sad.

  4. - Top - End - #394
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Why the change Milo?

  5. - Top - End - #395
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Milo v3's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    Convert so that the gramaric Anabolist will no longer be with us? :(
    This would make me very sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    Why the change Milo?
    Because the principles seem tact on, the use of principles themselves is abit distant to the whole theme and feel of the class. But I still want Anabolist to be a gramaric class, especially since the original anabolist was the first gramarie homebrew.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Milo v3's Avatar

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Just checking what works:
    Gramarie
    Mutations
    Autopilot
    [COLOR="Fractured Horizons"]Fractured Horizons[/COLOR]
    Fractured Horizons
    Academist
    Artisan
    Geneticist
    Reshar
    Xendrik

    EDIT: Ok, it appears it has to be one word
    Last edited by Milo v3; 2014-02-10 at 10:08 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Sorry for the triple post....

    Inspirations
    • Evolutionist
    • Xenoalchemist
    • Pokemon
    • Bioshock
    • Farscape
    • [Prototype]
    • Synthevolver
    • Full Metal Alchemist


    Status
    Playable but not Finished, there is enough of all the options to play this from 1-20 levels.

    To do list to Truly Finish
    • Add plasmids for every principle (Until then you can probably just guess which sort of mutations you could get from a principle).
    • Add more Branch benefits


    Spoiler
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    The Geneticist

    "All it required was a cocktail of dangerous, experimental surgery and a willingness to ignore the unnecessary suffering of perfectly innocent beings! Also, I shot magic into their chromosomes until they turned inside-out."

    To a normal scientist the field of biollurgy can allow you to create monsters, servants, weapons and buildings, geneticists see this as only the beginning. They can use their knowledge to modify and enhance any form of life; from walls and blades of biostructure, to constructed chassis, or even their companions. They can also use their biollurgical expertise to mend the sick and restore the wounded.

    Game Rule Information

    Abilities: The main abilities of Geneticist are wisdom and intelligence, wisdom improves their healing skill which governs how effectively they can apply biollurgical principles and heal people (obviously), intelligence determine how many skills points they have so they can be proficient in other disciplines.

    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: d8
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

    Class Skills: The geneticist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all except architecture and engineering) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    The Geneticist
    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Principles Known
    1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Baccalaureate principles, homunculi, organic science, plasmids 1
    2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Test subject 1 1
    3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Combat medic, plasmids 2
    4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Branch of flesh 2
    5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Plasmids, sphere of influence 3
    6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Test subject 2 3
    7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Plasmids, magisterial principles 4
    8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Back on their feet, branch of flesh 4
    9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 Plasmids 5
    10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Sphere of influence, test subject 3 5
    11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 Plasmids 6
    12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Branch of flesh, emergency action 6
    13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Plasmids 7
    14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 Doctorate principles, test subject 4 7
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 Plasmids, sphere of influence 8
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Always on call, branch of flesh 8
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Plasmids 9
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Test subject 5 9
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Medical mastery, plasmids 10
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Branch of flesh, true symbiosis 10

    All of the following are class features of the geneticist.

    Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: As a geneticist you are proficient with all simple weapons, as well as light armour.

    Homunculi: A geneticist can obtain a Homunculi (see below). A homunculi is an aberration that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion, servant, and test subject.
    The geneticist chooses the kind of homunculi he gets. As the geneticist advances in level, his homunculi also increases in power.

    If a homunculi is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized procedure that costs 200 gp per geneticist level. The operation takes 8 hours to complete. A character may have only one homunculi at a time, unless otherwise stated.

    Principles of Gramarie (Su): As a biollurgy specialist, you have many avenues of learning available to you. At 1st level, and again whenever indicated on your class table, you learn a new principle. Principles are supernatural (Su) abilities which bend or break the laws of physics, but not quite in the same way that most magic does. Principles can be used whenever you have the time, materials and inclination; they are effectively usable at-will if you are in an appropriate situation. Principles come in three grades: Baccalaureate, Magisterial, and Doctorate. You gain access to these higher grade principles as shown on your class table. Once you achieve the Doctorate level (at your 14th class level) you may refer to yourself as a doctor of your that discipline. You cannot put off learning a principle; if you do not qualify for one when you would otherwise receive it, it's lost. If a principle is marked [Specialist], it can only be learned by a specialist in that discipline.

    A principle is not cast, it is prepared. By preparing a principle multiple times, you can change the volume or size of the target affected. For example, if a principle targets 1 cubic foot of material, by preparing it twice (and thus spending twice as long on it) you could target 2 cubic feet of the material instead. A special case is made for bubbles, which are spherical effects. For more information on the size of bubbles, refer to the miscellaneous section at the end of this document.

    If a principle requires materials, you need extra materials every time you prepare it. You can also improve a principle later on my adding more materials to it (if applicable) and by spending more time on it. This also forces you to make a new skill check on it. Speaking of skill checks, you can always choose to use Heal as the skill to prepare a principle instead of the discipline key skill, but you take a -10 penalty on the check (except Biollurgy of course). In the same vein, you can take 20 on key skill checks made to prepare a principle, but you can never take 10 on them. Bear in mind that taking 20 means taking 20 times as long as you normally would, which for gramarie can be very long indeed. To prepare a principle you must be within range of touch of the structure or object or location on which you are setting the principle for the duration of the preparation.

    If multiple users of gramarie know the same principle, they can work simultaneously on the same project. For example, two warmakers could prepare the same principle at the same time, and the principle would count as having been prepared twice. Later a third warmaker who also knows that principle could show up and prepare it again, and the principle would then have been prepared three times. A warmaker can choose to 'lock' a principle that has been prepared, meaning that only he can continue work on it later. Bypassing the lock requires making a key skill check (based on the discipline) which beats the principle's current skill check by 5 or more.

    Organic Science: Being extremely focused in the sciences of the body and life, you can only learn principles from the disciplines of alchemetry (ALCH), biollurgy (BIOY), geoccultism (GEOC), and psychomantics (PSYM). At 1st level you are treated as a specialist in biollurgy.

    Plasmids (Su): The specialty of the geneticist is their ability to induce changes and mutations in creatures through experimentation and surgery. These changes are applied by injecting the creature with a plasmid, which contains a mutation. A geneticist can give a creature a plasmid with an hours work per the number of plasmids they will possess once they gain the one being applied, and costs 100(?) gp of materials per hour.

    A creature can have a number of plasmids equal to it's constitution score (minimum 1)(ignoring constitution increases from plasmids), but each mutation can only be gained a number of times per the creatures HD as if it was an evolutionist. The mutator level of the mutation is equal to the average of the Geneticist's level and the creature's HD. For a creature to gain a plasmid they must meet all the prerequisites of the mutation.

    A geneticist doesn't always have to spend wealth and resources to utilize plasmids though, has a small number of individuals he can experiment on without cost known as "Primary Subjects". A geneticist always counts himself and any homunculi he possesses as Primary subjects, and can have an additional Primary Subject per class level. After having been chosen as a Primary Subject, that status remains until you die, are destroyed, or after one year and a day. At any time after being chosen as a primary subject, the geneticist can do "maintenance" with an hours work, to continue your status as his Primary Subject for a year and a day from that point (this can be done an unlimited amount of times).

    What mutations a geneticist can cause through plasmids is based on what gramaric principles they can perform. Every level in which they gain the plasmid class feature, they may select one of the principles they know and gain access to that principles list of mutations:

    Spoiler
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    Baccalaureate
    • ALCH 101: Intro to Alchemetry: Aligned Damage Reduction, Damage Reduction, Greater Damage Reduction, Hardy Damage Reduction, Material Damage Reduction, Natural Armour.
    • ALCH 112: Spooky Solvents: Ink, Resin, Slime, Trail, Psi/Spell-like abilities related to creating water, acid (not just acid damage though), alchemist fire, or oil, and psi/spell-like abilities related to protecting against poisons.
    • Baccalaureate Tier ARCD Principle: Fast Healing, Psi/Spell-like abilities related to healing, regaining, or stealing health.
    • BIOY 101: Intro to Biollurgy: Change Shape, Evolve Fortitude, Evolve Resilience, Natural Armour, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities related to changing flesh into something or something into flesh, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities related to reshaping metal or organic material.
    • BIOY 191: Blacksmithing for Biologists: Budding Creation, Force Sheath, Integrated Arsenal, Integrated Tools, Natural Armour, Resin, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities relating to armour or weapons.
    • Baccalaureate Tier CONT Principle: Breath Weapon, Elemental Attack, Elemental Nimbus, Energy Resistance, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities related to taking energy from the elements.
    • Baccalaureate Tier DVPY Principle: Detect Magic, Detect Psionics, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities with Detect as their first word.
    • Baccalaureate Tier ELDK Principle: Evolve Speed, Jet, Speed of the Wind, Sprint, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities based around increasing Base Land Speed.
    • GEOC 101: Intro to Geoccultism: Budding Creation, Desecration, Grove, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities directly related to manipulating the environment on a decent scale (Move Earth would count but Telekinesis wouldn't), Verdant Servant.
    • GEOC 117: Rocks for Jocks: Adherent Hands, Cargon Hold, Darkvision, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities relating to Cities or Caves.
    • Baccalaureate Tier HEUR Principle: Combat Reading, Detect Psionics, Detect Thoughts, Hivemind, Psychic Torment, Telepathic Guidance, Telepathy.
    • Baccalaureate Tier IMACH Principle: Psi-Like Abilities relating to illusions lower than 4th level, Spell-Like Abilities of the illusion school of lower than 4th level.
    • Baccalaureate Tier KALD Principle: Energy Resistance, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities that stops stone, metal, gases, or water from entering an area or repels it.
    • PSYM 101: Intro to Psychomantics: Captivating Song, Charm, Evolve Aptitude, Pheromones, Superior Grace, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities based around changing peoples attitudes.
    • PSYM 142: Innocent Horror: Chameleonic, Darkvision, Evolve Will, Extra Senses, Natural Invisibility, Umbra Vision.
    • Baccalaureate Tier YGGD Principle: Abduction, Dimension Door, Psi/Spell-Like abilities involving teleportation.


    Magisterial
    • ALCH 202: Irregular Properties: Psi/Spell-Like Abilities related to magnetism.
    • ALCH 286: Mysterious Metallurgy: Psi/Spell-Like Abilities based around changing materials into other materials.
    • Magisterial Tier ARCD Principle: Elemental Attack, Elemental Lance, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities of the Light or Sonic Descriptor, Slime.
    • BIOY 228: Animate Construction: Budding Creation, Create Spawn, Living Creation, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities that create creatures (Including animating objects and similar effects), Verdant Servant.
    • BIOY 273: Artificial Reckoning: Charm, Dominate, Hive Mind, Superior Cognizance, Superior Grace, Superior Instinct, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities that grant or increase intelligence scores.
    • Magisterial Tier CONT Principle:
    • Magisterial Tier DVPY Principle:
    • Magisterial Tier ELDK Principle:
    • GEOC 235: Bizarre Biomes:
    • GEOC 291: Unknown Oceans:
    • Magisterial Tier HEUR Principle:
    • Magisterial Tier IMACH Principle: Psi-Like Abilities relating to illusions lower than 7th level, Spell-Like Abilities of the illusion school of lower than 7th level.
    • Magisterial Tier KALD Principle:
    • PSYM 246: Social Agent:
    • PSYM 269: Eccentric Reactions:
    • Magisterial Tier YGGD Principle:


    Doctorate
    • ALCH 325: Preternatural Fluids:
    • ALCH364: Unexpected Materials:
    • Doctorate Tier ARCD Principle:
    • BIOY 340: Erratic Mutations: Any four mutations.
    • BIOY 381: Eccentric Genetics: Any six mutations.
    • Doctorate Tier CONT Principle:
    • Doctorate Tier DVPY Principle:
    • Doctorate Tier ELDK Principle:
    • GEOC 323: Curious Climates:
    • GEOC 374: Supernal Ecologies:
    • Doctorate Tier HEUR Principle:
    • Doctorate Tier IMACH Principle: Psi-Like Abilities relating to illusions, Spell-Like Abilities of the illusion school.
    • Doctorate Tier KALD Principle:
    • PSYM 361: Dreams within Dreams:
    • PSYM 384: Sociological Revolution:
    • Doctorate Tier YGGD Principle:


    Test subject: At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, you can improve your homunculi through experimentation. At first he can take only a Test Subject change from the Test Subject 1 list, but each time this ability is gained he also gains access to a higher level of potential changes. The same ability cannot be taken more than once.

    Spoiler
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    Test Subject 1
    • Additional Homunculi 1: Instead of improving the power of your homunculi, you instead create a new one. This additional homunculi functions as your existing homunculi, except you may decide for it to have a different base animal, have different mutations choices, and have taken a different set of teratormorphisms if you have selected Teratormorphism Test Subjects. Note, you do not gain additional mutations from additional homunculi.
    • Expanded Mutations 1: Increase the number of mutations your homunculi get per two levels by one.
    • Teratomorphism 1: Your homunculi gain a tier 1 teratomorphism. This Test Subject may be taken multiple times.

    Test Subject 2
    • Additional Homunculi 2: As additional homunculi 1, granting you a third homunculi. Prerequisite: Additional Homunculi 1.
    • Expanded Mutations 2: As expanded mutations 1, benefits stack. Prerequisite: Expanded Mutations 1.
    • Teratomorphism 2: Your homunculi gain a tier 2 teratomorphism. This Test Subject may be taken multiple times. Prerequisite: Teratomorphism 1.

    Test Subject 3
    • Additional Homunculi 3: As additional homunculi 1, granting you a fourth homunculi. Prerequisite: Additional Homunculi 2.
    • Expanded Mutations 3: As expanded mutations 1, benefits stack. Prerequisite: Expanded Mutations 2.
    • Teratomorphism 3: Your homunculi gain a tier 3 teratomorphism. This Test Subject may be taken multiple times. Prerequisite: Teratomorphism 2.

    Test Subject 4
    • Additional Homunculi 4: As additional homunculi 1, granting you a fifth homunculi. Prerequisite: Additional Homunculi 3.
    • Expanded Mutations 4: As expanded mutations 1, benefits stack. Prerequisite: Expanded Mutations 3.
    • Teratomorphism 4: Your homunculi gain a tier 4 teratomorphism. This Test Subject may be taken multiple times. Prerequisite: Teratomorphism 3.

    Test Subject 5
    • Additional Homunculi 5: As additional homunculi 1, granting you a sixth homunculi. Prerequisite: Additional Homunculi 4.
    • Expanded Mutations 5: As expanded mutations 1, benefits stack. Prerequisite: Expanded Mutations 4.
    • Teratomorphism 5: Your homunculi gain a tier 5 teratomorphism. This Test Subject may be taken multiple times. Prerequisite: Teratomorphism 4.



    Combat Medic (Ex): Starting at 3rd level you're adept at providing medical attention to your allies in tight conditions. By making a successful Heal check (DC 10 + their HD) as a standard action you can remove all nonlethal damage on an adjacent ally or heal them 1 hit point per class level. You can only provide this benefit to an ally once every three hours. You can treat yourself with this ability, but within the same time restriction. This ability provokes attacks of opportunity.

    Branch of Flesh (Pr): Every 4th level of geneticists select a branch of biollurgy to focus towards. This focus grants you the benefit of being able to manipulate biostructure in a new way. All of these procedures have a preparation time of 2 hours.

    Each Branch has three targets; chassis, inert, and other. What is targetable by Other is listed in the Branch and sometimes doesn't have to be biostructure.

    Spoiler
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    • Aerobiollurgy: A focus in the branch of Aerobiollurgy allows you to figure out how to have biostructure able to be transported passively through the air.
      • Chassis: The chassis becomes gaseous in nature, acting as if constantly affected by a Gaseous Form spell except that they lose their movement speed and can only travel by the effect of the wind. When preparing this if the creature is unwilling, you must succeed on a heal check opposed by their fortitude save +10 or the procedure fails.
      • Inert: After this procedure, anyone in contact with the mass can expend a full-round action to cause the mass to be affected by a Gaseous Form effect. This lasts for a number of rounds selected during the full-round action, but the number of rounds must be a multiple of 10.
      • Other (Food/Drink): This allows you to convert food or drink into a vaporous state. For the first minute of being vaporous, the food or drink still possesses the ability to be shaped and moved as if solid, as long as the individual doing the shaping takes a full-round action to do so. Breathing in vaporous food or drink acts as though consumed it normally.

    • Agriculture: A focus in the branch of Agriculture allows you to cultivate biostructure, despite that said things are generally only available to doctors of biollurgy.
      • Chassis: Once a week as a full-round action, the chassis can generate one cubic foot of biostructure of the same material as it's body. A chassis can only do this if they ate and drank at least the healthy amount of food for the previous seven days. This procedure can't be applied to chassis without a constitution score. *Could someone help me reword this*
      • Inert: If non-magical, non-biostructure objects of the same material as the biostructure are placed against it's surface it starts to feed of that material. Every hour it consumes one pounds worth of the material. Each day, the amount of biostructure increases in it's dimensions and grows additional mass equal to half the amount of material it has consumed in the previous day. Biostructure can never get larger than twice it's original size from this.
      • Other (Living): This can be used to reduce the amount of time needed for new life. When used either the gestation length for that creature to produce offspring is reduced to only 50% of what it normally would be, or you can decide for the offspring of that creature to age twice as fast until they reach adult age.

    • Anatomy: A focus in the branch of Anatomy allows you to use your understanding the body plan to modify its form past it's normal limits.
      • Chassis: You may trade out the chassis's body slots for other slots as if was the first use of Animate Construction on the chassis. This benefits from Creative Surgeon as normal.
      • Inert: The mass of biostructure can possess a number of plasmids equal to double it's constitution score.
      • Other (Living): You may rearrange a living creatures organs, meaning that when a sneak attack (or similar) is scored on the individual, there is a 75% chance that the sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

    • Astrobiollurgy: A focus in the branch of Astrobiollurgy allows you to adapt biollurgy to life in the void.
      • Chassis: The chassis functions in No Gravity environments as if they were Subjective Gravity environments and don't suffer from Pressure Damage.
      • Inert: The mass of biostructure is immune to the negative effects of radiomantics materials and can breathe in an irradiated area, as if it possessed the correct gas.
      • Other (Eldkinetic): Biostructure engines modified in this way produce ten times the amount of push whenever it or the object it's moving is used in an environment with gravity at least as negligible as space (thus includes environments with the No Gravity planar trait).

    • Bioalchemetry: A focus in the branch of Bioalchemetry allows you to better apply alchemic knowledge to life.
      • Chassis: Select a single planetary metal. For the purposes of gramaric principles you can be targeted as if you were made of that material.
      • Inert: Instead of modifying a mass of inert biostructure, this allows you to create a mass of inert biostructure from liquid. This functions as BIOY 101, except that is can target liquid organic material and liquid planetary metals. Liquid biostructure doesn't separate from it's mass, despite not being solid. Liquid biostructure doesn't join with other biostructure without use of 101 as normal, though it can still physically make contact with it.
      • Other (Special): If you have half a cubic foot each of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, and phosphorus; you can convert it into 2 cubic feet of biostructure as if it was organic material. This generates a lot of heat, causing the materials temperature to increase by 50 degrees Celsius during the preparation time.

    • Biogeoccultism: A focus in the branch of Biogeoccultism allows you to better apply geoccultic knowledge to life.
      • Chassis: Select a terrain type when you prepare this, the chassis gains a +4 circumstance bonus to skill checks while in that terrain but a circumstance penalty equal to the chassis's HD to skills when outside that terrain type.
      • Inert: Instead of modifying a mass of inert biostructure, this allows you to convert crystal into biostructure with Biollurgy 101 as if it was a planetary metal.
      • Other (Non-Creature Plant): Select a terrain type when you prepare this, the plant is subtly modified to be able to survive and reproduce in that terrain type in addition to environments where it would normally dwell.

    • Bioinfomatics: A focus in the branch of Bioinfomatic allows you to gain research information through new procedures.
      • Chassis: ?
      • Inert: ?
      • Other (?): ?

    • Biomathematics:
    • Biomechanics:
    • Biomedical:
    • Biomusicology:
    • Biophysics:
    • Biotechnology:
    • Building Biollurgy: A focus in the branch of Building Biollurgy allows you to figure out how to create interior environments within biostructure without compromising it.
      • Chassis: This can only be applied to chassis of huge size or larger. The interior of this chassis is hollowed, and a single 5 ft. diameter entrance is created that can be closed by a free action by the chassis. Every square of the chassis that isn't adjacent to it's outer layer is empty and can have walls, furniture and people inside of it as such. If the chassis has a cockpit, at least 5 ft. of the interior must be selected to be the pilot area. This functions as a normal cockpit, except that additional 5 ft. cubes can be selected to be pilot area (these must all be joined together), any creature in a pilot area can attempt to aid other on the main pilots checks to control the chassis, or make opposed checks to fight for control against a different pilot.
      • Inert: The interior of the mass of biostructure is hollowed and a small entrance is created to this space. The interior volume of the mass is three quarters of the mass's whole volume. The entrance is up to 5 ft. wide in diameter, and can be opened and closed via touch by anyone aware of it as a standard action.
      • Other (Geoccult Pole): Biostructure poles modified with this procedure can overwrite artificial elements at least as big as a small house. The overriding is only aesthetic in nature though and possesses the same traits as it normally would (So towers of water made in this way would still mechanically be stone if that's what it was formed from). This overwriting doesn't have to force the aesthetics of baseline terrain (though you could do that if you want), you can give building the traits of features you have (like making ice castles, cactus inns, or coral towers).

    • Botany:
    • Cell Biollurgy:
    • Conversation Biollurgy:
    • Cryobiollurgy:
    • Developmental Biollurgy:
    • Ecology:
    • Environmental Biollurgy:
    • Epidemiollurgy:
    • Evolutionary Biollurgy:
    • Genetics:
    • Hematollurgy:
    • Integravity Biollurgy:
    • Marine Biollurgy:
    • Microbiollurgy:
    • Molecular Biollurgy:
    • Mycollurgy:
    • Neurobiollurgy:
    • Population Biollurgy:
    • Paleontollurgy:
    • Pathollurgy:
    • Physiollurgy:
    • Phytopathollurgy:
    • Psychobiollurgy:
    • Sociobiollurgy:
    • Zoollurgy:



    Sphere of Influence: At 5th level, and again at 10th level and 15th level, your experimentation and research allows you to pursue new fields of study. Every time you gain this class feature, you can select one of your available disciplines of gramarie in order to be treated as a specialist in that discipline. Alternatively, you can choose a new discipline of gramarie, in which case you can now choose principles from that field of study as well as your existing disciplines. As a final alternative, you may select to gain access to Military Science principles, but only for Biollurgy.

    Back On Their Feet (Ex): Beginning at 8th level when you successfully treat someone with your combat medic class feature you provide far more than a few bandages. With the whole of your medical expertise you can also allow them to make a new saving throw against any ongoing condition affecting them. You can now provide aid to a given creature once per hour.

    Emergency Action (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, you can use your combat medic class feature to save an ally a lesser surgeon might have lost. If you can perform this ability on an ally who has died within two rounds of their death you can bring them back from the brink with no penalty. Your combat medic ability now heals 2 hit points per class level and can be used on a given creature once every ten minutes.

    Always on Call (Ex): Beginning at 16th level you can provide aid to your allies perpetually with your combat medic class feature. You can now use the ability as often as you like.

    Medical Mastery (Ex): Starting at 19th level you're a master of life and death, and probably the best doctor in the world. Whenever you use your combat medic class feature you restore the target to full hit points plus an additional ten percent temporary hit points.

    Birth of Knowledge: Upon reaching 20th level, the geneticist's research and testing into biollurgy has borne great fruit. They geneticist gains one Theory that they meet the prerequisites of, though the theory must have a least one biollurgy principle as a prerequisite.

    Homunculi
    A homunculi is an animal or vermin created by a geneticist to aid him in his study of biollurgy. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now an aberration. A homunculi grants additional plasmid mutations to its master, as given on the table below.

    Levels of different classes that are entitled to homunculi stack for the purpose of determining any homunculi abilities that depend on the master's level.

    The fact it is an aberration also causes it to not age, and lose it's ability to reproduce.

    Spoiler
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    Homunculi Plasmid
    Albatross Extra Senses, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapon, Superior Instinct, Vestigial Wings
    Arctic Fox Evolve Speed, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapon, Nimble Form, Scent
    Bat Blindsense, Extra Senses, Nimble Form, Superior Instinct, Vestigial Wings
    Cat Adherent Hands, Evolve Speed, Evolve Talent, Natural Attack, Scent
    Centipede (Small) Adherent Hands, Chameleonic, Evolve Talent, Extra Senses, Poison
    Dog Evolve Speed, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapon, Powerful Form, Scent
    Eel Aquatic Adaptation, Chameleonic, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapon, Scent
    Ferret
    Giant Fire Beetle Darkvision, Evolve Speed, Natural Armour, Natural Weapon, Psi/Spell-Like Abilities with the Light Descriptor
    Goblin Chameleonic, Darkvision, Evolve Aptitude, Evolve Speed, Resilient Form
    Hawk Evolved Talent, Extra Senses, Natural Weapons, Nimble Form, Vestigial Wings
    Hedgehog Evolved Speed, Natural Weapon, Natural Armour, Poison, Quills
    Horned Lizard Chameleonic, Natural Armour, Natural Weapon, Quill, Psi/Spell-Like abilities with the Fear descriptor
    Lizard Adherent Hands, Natural Armour, Natural Weapon, Evolve Reflexes, Evolve Talent
    Monkey Adherent Hands, Extra Arms, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapon, Nimble Form
    Octopus Aquatic Adaption, Chameleonic, Jet, Ink, Natural Weapon
    Owl Chameleonic, Evolve Talent, Extra Senses, Natural Weapon, Vestigial Wings
    Parrot Evolve Talent, Natural Weapons, Nimble Form, Superior Instinct, Vestigial Wings
    Penguin Aquatic Adaption, Energy Resistance, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapon (Bite), Superior Grace
    Pony Colossal Strength, Evolve Speed, Natural Attack, Scent, Speed of the Wind
    Puffin Evolve Talent, Natural Weapons, Nimble Form, Superior Instinct, Vestigial Wings
    Rat Adherent Hands, Chameleonic, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapons, Scent
    Raven Evolve Talent, Natural Weapons, Nimble Form, Superior Instinct, Vestigial Wings
    [td]Sea Snake (Tiny) Aquatic Adaption, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapons, Nimble Form, Poison
    Scorpion (Tiny) Constrict, Improved Grab, Natural Attack, Poison, Tremorsense
    Spider (Tiny) Adherent Hands, Evolve Aptitude, Natural Attack, Poison, Web
    Toad Aquatic Adaption, Chameleonic, Evolve Racial Potential, Evolve Resilience, Poison
    Viper (Tiny) Adherent Hands, Evolve Talent, Natural Weapons, Nimble Form, Poison
    Weasel Adherent Hands, Evolve Talent, Improved Grab, Natural Weapon, Scent


    Homunculi Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature of the homunculi's kind, but with the following changes.

    Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the homunculi's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

    Hit Points: The homunculi has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.

    Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the homunculi's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

    Damage equals that of a normal creature of the humunculi's kind.

    Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the homunculi's base save bonus (Fortitude +0, Reflex +0, Will +2) or the master's (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The homunculi uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn't share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.

    Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the homunculi has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the homunculi uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a homunculi's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the homunculi's ability to use.

    Homunculi Ability Descriptions: All homunculi have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master's combined level in classes that grant homunculi, as shown on the table below. The abilities are cumulative.

    Class Level Int Special
    1st-2nd 6 Alertness, mutations, speech
    3rd-4th 7 Mutations, redesign
    5th-6th 8 Mutations
    7th-8th 9 Circuited flesh, mutations
    9th-10th 10 Mutations
    11th-12th 11 Mutations, new genesis
    13th-14th 12 Mutations
    15th-16th 13 Mutations
    17th-18th 14 Mutations
    19th-20th 15 Mutations

    Int: The homunculi's Intelligence score (can be modified by mutations).

    Alertness (Ex): While a homunculi is within arm's reach, the master gains the Alertness feat.

    Mutations: Every two levels (starting at first level), the homunculi gains 2 mutations of it's masters choice as if it was an evolutionist with it's master's class level as it's mutator level.

    Speech: A homunculi starts knowing one language of the master's choice, and gains another when it's intelligence modifier increases past +0, and whenever the bonus increases after that point. The language it knows must be one the master understands.

    Redesign: A homunculi's master can move and replace a homunculi's body parts to redesign the beast. It can exchange one body slot for another, taking one hour of work per body slot exchanged.

    Circuited flesh: Homunculi can be sustained through supply of ebbs. By channelling ebbs into the homunculi, it can regain one hit point per ebb.

    New Genesis: By spending 24 hours of work on experimenting upon a homunculi, you can make it a true creature. This operation restore the homunculi's original type, it begins aging from Young Adult, and it can reproduce again. If it does reproduce in the future, it's descendants gain one mutation the homunculi possessed that they meet the prerequisites of per HD of the descendant. In addition, if his descendants couldn't already they gain the ability to speak one language.

    Performing New Genesis costs you that Homunculi permanently, you no longer have control over it and you cannot create a new one to replace it.


    Feats
    Heartless Subject
    Prerequisites: No constitution score.
    Benefit: For the purpose of how many plasmids you can have, you may use your charisma score rather than your constitution score.
    Normal: Creatures without a constitution score can only have one plasmid.

    Plasmid Research
    Prerequisites: Plasmids.
    Benefit: Select three mutations. You can apply these mutations with your plasmid ability. These plasmids always have a cost, regardless of if the target is your Primary Subject.
    Special: If you later gain access to one of the mutations you selected with this feat again because of the Plasmid ability, you may reselect that mutation.

    Theories
    Cell Theory
    Grade: Theory
    Prerequisite: Specialization in biollurgy, must know five BIOY principles, Plasmids
    Preparation Time: 6 hours

    Organisms sometimes work together; this could be providing shelter to one another, defend the weaker of the two, or trading valuable resources between each other. Generally this connection is only recognized in regards to two or more species working together in a symbiotic or parasitic relationship, but the true is that every creature is the result of thousands upon thousands of organisms working together to form their bodies. By exploiting your understanding that each creature is simply a mass of cells, you can combine the cells which form different creatures into one form.

    This principle requires two creatures that are both helpless, of the aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze or vermin types, and only possess racial hit dice. This functions as two creatures merging through the symbiosis mutation, except for the following:
    Spoiler
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    • The fused entity is treated as if it had one type of the two participants (the geneticist's choice which), though all of subtypes of the participants. It can chose to be affected by spells and effects that check for subtype as best benefits it.
    • The fused entity has a number of HD equal to the highest hit die of the participants, though the type of die is based on the creature type. Its hit points are determined by the creatures new HD and Constitution score.
    • The fused entity has a single initiative modifier, set by its combined feats, ability scores, mutations and any other effects that modify it. It rolls initiative once for the whole creation and only possesses a single turn each turn.
    • The fused entity has the best base attack bonus determined by it's HD and type.
    • The fused entity uses the best base saves of the creatures HD and Type, modified by its new ability score bonuses.
    • The fused entity has it's skill ranks determined from it's Type, HD, and intelligence score.
    • The fused entity has a number of feats based on it's HD. It's suggested that it selects the same feats as the original two entities possessed.
    • The fused entity cannot exit the fused state.
    • For the purpose of spawning new young, the geneticist must choose one method of reproduction from one of the participants. This method is used for the fused entity, but the fused entity counts as a separate species to it's original participant species and has to mate with its own species to reproduce if it needs to mate.
    Last edited by Milo v3; 2014-04-03 at 09:40 PM.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    (mostly copy/pasted off Fako)
    "Based on the conversations that have occurred recently, I think the first order of business that the council should ask the Gramarie community to work on is the backbone of the system: Tiers of Gramarie. It's obvious that the three tiers + tags is insufficient to handle balancing the options against each other, and that something needs to change. I think we should ask the public for ideas that would (hopefully) include the following:

    # Of Tiers (potentially with names)
    Default progression for Tiers
    Suggested rate of principles for the Gramarist / Academist
    Explanations and Justifications

    Without this, we really don't have any solid footing when working on other projects, hence why I think it needs to be addressed first..."



    I previously posted a 6 tier system with tagged principles counting as a separate tier than non tagged principles, but I don't know if that solves the problem. It might help if someone reexplains what it is that needs to be fixed.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    The issue is one of scaling and balance, as the power of things like creating demi-planes is not fit for 14th level. 7 levels per tier is too wide to have balanced abilities for that whole range.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    (mostly copy/pasted off Fako)
    "Based on the conversations that have occurred recently, I think the first order of business that the council should ask the Gramarie community to work on is the backbone of the system: Tiers of Gramarie. It's obvious that the three tiers + tags is insufficient to handle balancing the options against each other, and that something needs to change. I think we should ask the public for ideas that would (hopefully) include the following:

    # Of Tiers (potentially with names)
    Default progression for Tiers
    Suggested rate of principles for the Gramarist / Academist
    Explanations and Justifications

    Without this, we really don't have any solid footing when working on other projects, hence why I think it needs to be addressed first..."



    I previously posted a 6 tier system with tagged principles counting as a separate tier than non tagged principles, but I don't know if that solves the problem. It might help if someone reexplains what it is that needs to be fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    The issue is one of scaling and balance, as the power of things like creating demi-planes is not fit for 14th level. 7 levels per tier is too wide to have balanced abilities for that whole range.
    Was about to bring this up here, but it looks like I was beaten to the punch.

    Well, let's break down the problem a bit. First, as milo said, we have abilities spanning seven levels. In D&D, that's a rather large field of levels to cover. As an easy comparison, try taking the wizard's spell list, and imagine that they can pick up to third level spells when taking their first class level. While some of them are ok, such as Create Food and Water, you also have abilities like Fly or Fireball that would be detrimental to balance until higher levels.

    Second, due to that high level of variance, not all principles are on equal footing. Geoccultism doesn't really do much of anything until 7th level and beyond, simply because the effects are too potent to give at level one. If you decided to specialize in Geoccultism... good luck. On the other hand, you have Arcanodynamics - it's first principle can shut down gramaric devices that require power, as long as it gets close enough. Can you tell me that those two are equal? I can provide more examples if you'd like - the problem is prevalent across all current tiers.

    Sadly, no matter what we do, this is likely to involve a hefty rewrite of principles as we know them. Even if we go with your system of shifting specialist options back a few levels, we are still left with hefty imbalance. It would be better than what we have now, but doesn't quite fix the issue.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    The obvious answer is to get rid of Grades and Specialization entirely. Replace it with a more meaningful list of Prerequisites for each principle. Instead of the current "4 skill ranks" for all Baac, "8 skill ranks + 1 principle" for Mag and "15 skill ranks + 3 principles" for Doctorate, which currently is both meaningless to specialists (you will always meet the prerequisites for anything you focus on) and a straightjacket for everyone else (if you don't pick 4 disciplines and ignore everything else, you can't get Doctorate Principles without spending feats to ignore the prereqs.), you do something like this:

    Weaker principles like GEOC 101 can have a weak restriction like "4 ranks in Survival" as their prerequisite. More useful principles (ARCD 101, HEUR 101...) get higher skill requirements in order to delay the level you take them at, while principles that are currently tagged as [Specialist] have the appropriate discipline skill focus replacement feats (Diplomatic Immunity, Carbon Copy, etc.) as a prerequisite. All of the current Principle requirements go away except in cases where they're actually important, like in Imachination where it really doesn't make sense to take any of the later principles unless you've taken IMCH 101 for the basic senses.

    Instead of Specialization, a Gramarist gets either Skill Focus (Know: Engineering) or one of the skill focus replacement feats as a Bonus Feat at level one. [Military Science] works in a similar manner: A new group of feats which require Grist For the Mill as a prereq get introduced and all of the the [Military Science] Principles all require one of those feats to take it. Warmakers get one of the feats as a Bonus Feat at level one, effectively specializing them.
    Last edited by Grek; 2014-02-16 at 09:32 PM.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Would disciplines no longer be required to have a set number of principles per tag? This seems much more free form, which I am not against.

    I don't see the importance of replacing tags with feats. It seems to work almost the same way as using class features and tags, and doesn't address the tiering problem.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    Would disciplines no longer be required to have a set number of principles per tag? This seems much more free form, which I am not against.
    Yes, absolutely. Ideally, you would have a similar number, but this is no longer a requirement.

    I don't see the importance of replacing tags with feats.
    If the prerequisite for taking specialist principles is that you have a specific feat, then you could just take that feat with your normal feat allotment instead of jumping through hoops to get the proper specialization tag.

    It seems to work almost the same way as using class features and tags, and doesn't address the tiering problem.
    The tiering problem is addressed by skill rank prerequisites. To restrict something to level X or higher, just give it a skill rank prerequisite of X+3. It's much more granular and multiclass-friendly than having doing it with class features.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Specialization in a discipline seems more useful than most other gramarie feats, and a class being feat heavy would be specialization heavy and vice versa, which I guess is ok so long as some things are rewritten.

    We should try to ensure that there is a 4 rank ability for each discipline, lest all the level one undergrads be forced into GEOC.

    Another thing, this system makes gramarie much more skill focused, when it was very skill focused to begin with. That might not be too hard to balance, but I don't know how well it will react to high-skill non-gramarie classes.
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-02-17 at 10:34 AM.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grek View Post
    Instead of Specialization, a Gramarist gets either Skill Focus (Know: Engineering) or one of the skill focus replacement feats as a Bonus Feat at level one. [Military Science] works in a similar manner: A new group of feats which require Grist For the Mill as a prereq get introduced and all of the the [Military Science] Principles all require one of those feats to take it. Warmakers get one of the feats as a Bonus Feat at level one, effectively specializing them.
    Personally I wouldn't create new feats, the existing group is good enough.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    We should try to ensure that there is a 4 rank ability for each discipline, lest all the level one undergrads be forced into GEOC.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird
    Personally I wouldn't create new feats, the existing group is good enough
    Doing it that way means that Warmaker and Gramarist/Academist (was the rename ever decided on) get the same specializations. The Military Science principles need to have different prerequisites if we want Warmakers to have an easier time taking them than other people.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Considering thhe feats will alreafy be very powerful as they grant specialization, it might be a good idea to separaye them completely with a new set with no other abilities.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    It all depends on the other requirements, I suppose. If specialist disciplines have a higher skill requirement or other bar to entry, then the feat requirement can be made less severe.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    I personally disagree with both the idea to remove tiers, replacing them with skill prerequisites, and replacing specialization with feats, including warmarker specialization.

    Edit:
    More Skill Based Tiers
    Firstly, because it sort of makes multiclassing into gramarist classes sooo much better, because oh look you have the skill ranks to get a doctorate principle when you take your first level of Academist. (Obviously doctorate would still have the "principle prerequisites" but I'm trying to make a point)
    Secondly, because it bases the system even further on skill reliance which I think is rather unnecessary.

    Third, because it means we specifically have to add in new principles so that you can get principles at low levels without all of them requiring max ranks, or making the existing baccu principles prerequisites low enough so that doesn't matter.

    Fourth, you do realize that every principle bar 101's already has skill prerequisites?

    Fifth, one of the Gramarists is a skill monkey, not sure if this would change the balance at all, but something to watch for.

    Sixth and Seventh, I had two more reasons, but I forgot them between first writing the post and this edit.

    Feats for specialization
    What your doing is actually adding more hoops to jump through, so I don't see how this is a better option.
    Last edited by Milo v3; 2014-02-17 at 06:22 PM.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    I agree with almost of all of what Milo said, except I think adding new principles for first level players would be only beneficial.


    I'm going to attempt to fix Milo's problem with Grek's solution by detaching the resources from skills and feats.

    Principle points are gained somehow, I think I recommend as an advancing class feature.
    Principle points are allotted into disciplines.
    Each principle requires a number of points to have been allotted into their discipline as a prereq.

    Specialist points are gained somehow, I suggest also as an advancing class feature. This way the Academist could grant thesis points, the Warmaker Military Science points, and another class could grant more or less of one, or even some of both. It's flexible.
    Specialist points are allotted like principle points, and are required the same way.
    The only reason specialist points should be separate is to give more flexibility in class design. A class could have many basic principles but few tagged principles for example.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    SNIP
    Problem with RAS, people would have to take tagged principles.
    Obvious fix, you can convert specialist points to principle points.

    Other than that, I don't exactly understand how your suggestion would work. Not as in, I see flaws in it, but I don't entirely comprehend what your suggesting.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Firstly, because it sort of makes multiclassing into gramarist classes sooo much better, because oh look you have the skill ranks to get a doctorate principle when you take your first level of Academist.
    Basing character abilities off of class levels rather than character levels is a bad idea. If a level 14 wizard with 17 ranks in UMD decides that he wants to learn Gramarie, he should be allowed to dive in head first and get something on par with what he would have gotten by taking his 15th level of Wizard instead.

    Third, because it means we specifically have to add in new principles so that you can get principles at low levels without all of them requiring max ranks, or making the existing baccu principles prerequisites low enough so that doesn't matter.
    We don't have to add in low level principles. At most, we need one principle for each discipline that can be taken at level one so that a character concept of "The Biolurgy Guy" can be doing their favourite discipline right away.

    Fourth, you do realize that every principle bar 101's already has skill prerequisites
    Yes, but the current skill prerequisites are just formalities. Anyone who wants to play a Gramarist is going to take max ranks in the key skills for their disciplines, and meets the skill requirement two levels before unlocking that tier of principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by qazzquimby View Post
    I'm going to attempt to fix Milo's problem with Grek's solution by detaching the resources from skills and feats.
    This is pretty much the opposite of my solution. I suggested skill ranks because they are directly tied to character level (A level X character will have at most X+3 ranks in their class skills) but only weakly tied to class levels (A character can have X+3 skill ranks by taking X levels in any combination of classes with the right class skills). Advancing principle access by class features does not work that that: You have to have all your class levels in a class that advances Gramarie (and, for specialists, the right kind of Gramarie), or your principles will be weak.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grek View Post
    Basing character abilities off of class levels rather than character levels is a bad idea. If a level 14 wizard with 17 ranks in UMD decides that he wants to learn Gramarie, he should be allowed to dive in head first and get something on par with what he would have gotten by taking his 15th level of Wizard instead.
    Would you suggest we do the same for every subsystem of 3.G? Because otherwise it's abit unbalancing to make gramarie the best for multiclassing, but every other subsystem you have to go straight or you suck.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grek View Post
    Basing character abilities off of class levels rather than character levels is a bad idea. If a level 14 wizard with 17 ranks in UMD decides that he wants to learn Gramarie, he should be allowed to dive in head first and get something on par with what he would have gotten by taking his 15th level of Wizard instead.
    Why would anyone ever take Gramarist/Academist/Whatever all the way, then? Just play whatever you want and then dip in whenever you feel like it, and all of Gramarie is open to you!
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by sirpercival View Post
    Why would anyone ever take Gramarist/Academist/Whatever all the way, then? Just play whatever you want and then dip in whenever you feel like it, and all of Gramarie is open to you!
    Except for the part where you wouldn't know nearly as many principles.


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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin Icewolf View Post
    Except for the part where you wouldn't know nearly as many principles.
    Considering most principles say "Functions as Principle, with extra stuff", you'd effectively have the same range in power, as you effectively have the lower principles.
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    That's a problem with principles in general, really. They need to exist as discrete abilities instead of lower level principles being replaced entirely by higher level principles.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    I don't understand making principle strength based off chracter level. We don't give a fighter19 wizard1 a ninth level spell.

    Also why can't principles build off each other? Having discrete abilities and improving abilities are very distinct, but improving abilities are necessary lest a new system be developed for every improvement, or all abilities be given out for very feature.
    Improved abilties could have what they build off as a prereq and distinct could not, and I think that's problem solved.
    Completely unrelated so don't let it derail the conversation: I think with principles coming from many prcs and tags it might be a good idea to temporarilt detach everything and reevaluate what should go where (for instance maybe a prc principle fits better as core). That doesn't have to happen often but once every year or so might be beneficial
    Last edited by qazzquimby; 2014-02-18 at 03:30 PM.

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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    One thing we could do is pull a ToB and base it of Gramarist Level, which progresses at 1/2 rate for non-principle-granting classes...?
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    Default Re: My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grek View Post
    That's a problem with principles in general, really. They need to exist as discrete abilities instead of lower level principles being replaced entirely by higher level principles.
    While I do agree with the above statement, I disagree with a 16th level barbarian taking his 17th level as wizard and getting a 9th level spell, which is the sort of thing we would need to do if all of 3.G worked like this. If only gramarie worked like this in 3.G, then I still oppose it for reasons already listed above.

    Personally, I think we should flesh out Qazz's system a bit and see if we can get it to a point where we like it.

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