Martial Arts Mechanics

[PaintByBlood]

I haven't been exposed to enough things in general, but one thing I have never found myself impressed by is how the systems I've looked through handle Martial Arts. Some of them just seem to throw up their hands and leave it to fluff (which is understandable, but I hope for something "better"), some make a strong attempt, but it isn't as flexible or varied as I might like.
Has anyone out there seen a mechanical take on Martial Arts that they were really impressed by? Realistic or fantasy are both fair game here, I'd just like to see something where the different styles are distinct, cover the main bases you might want to use, and don't end up convoluted or useless. (I'm aware of D&D3.5e's Tome of Battle and Pathfinder's [upcoming?] supplement in the same vein, before those get mentioned.)

[Spiryt]

Well, there are things like Riddle of Steel, for somehow detailed combat.

In most systems, trying to get more 'detailed' would probably end with cluster#!#@ like Grapple rules in 3.5.

[A_Man]

Hero system has a rather detailed martial arts mechanic, albeit they vary from worthless to remarkably potent.

[PaintByBlood]

I don't really mean that I've got my eye out for something detailed in a mechanical sense, but that I'd like to see someone try and elegantly cover every angle. I'd like one player to be able to fight with the Wing Chun style against some NPC ninja that is focusing on Aikido maneuvers (or a fantasy equivalent of these) and feel like both styles are being well represented.
I'd also like to see the more fantasy-oriented attacks like pressure-point striking (that is, the fiction-enhanced version, though the real version as well) have dramatic effects like disabling someone's ability to use their hands or use magic rather than simply amounting to a -2 to this or that.

This might require a detailed system, but if there is something out there that handles it elegantly I'd love to see it.

(My apologies if any of what I write seems off-base or a little disorganized. That may be due to my job currently leaving me running on pure caffeine.)

[Terraoblivion]

Sounds like you're only referring to unarmed martial arts, which seems needlessly limiting. Especially since the martial arts tradition depicted the most in fiction, kung-fu, relies heavily on armed martial arts.

[LibraryOgre]

I think my favorite was from 2e's Combat and Tactics. Martial Arts was 4 different forms, each of which could be mixed and matched together. Type A was punching. Type B was Kicking. Type C was Throws. Type D was movement. Proficiency in the martial art gave you some bonuses, but still left you fighting unarmed against people with weapons (i.e. your damage, while better than a standard person, was still about 3/4 temporary and attacking an armed person while unarmed left you open to getting sliced from gizzard to zorch). Specialization in one of the styles allowed you to fight people with weapons... but someone with a weapon who had likewise specialized was probably STILL going to settle your hash.

For example, a starting Fighter might go Martial Arts and specialize in B, be proficient in A and D... that's his 4 WP slots. He's a pretty frightening character, this guy; he can kick 3 times every 2 rounds (1d6+2 damage), throw in a punch (1d3 damage) every round without invoking the penalties for two weapons (that being a benefit of style B). He can do this against any opponent (normally, you can't pummel creatures too much larger than you in C&T; consider the effect of punching an elephant; being able to pummel anyone of any size is a benefit of style A). Because he's got style D, he gets a -2 bonus to Armor Class, and can make a free block each round. Because he's specialized in any martial arts form, he can attack armed opponents without attacks of opportunity, and he can block armed opponents without penalty. He can, at 1st level, throw 2-3 attacks a round, plus a free block, and has an 8 AC on top of his Dex bonus.

But put him against a man in armor. Also a 1st level fighter, concindentally with identical stats, but who instead specialized in Long sword and wears Chain mail and a shield. Chainmail Dude can only do 1-2 attacks per round, but they do 1d8+2 damage. He's also got an AC of 4, compared to Martial Arts guy's 8. And that assumes Chainmail guy didn't specialize in his armor, shield, or weapon and shield style.

IMO, unarmed martial arts should be useful but, given equal training and stats, should usually fall to the person who remembered to bring a knife to the knife fight.

[PaintByBlood]

Sounds like you're only referring to unarmed martial arts, which seems needlessly limiting. Especially since the martial arts tradition depicted the most in fiction, kung-fu, relies heavily on armed martial arts.

Very true. That has been the focus of my thinking, I suppose largely because most of my favorite styles focus on unarmed combat as well.
But you're right, that is absolutely needlessly limiting. I suppose an ideal system could/would combine unarmed and armed combat into a flexible whole. So definitely ignore my focus on the unarmed.

[TheCountAlucard]

Exalted 2e tried pretty hard to capture the wuxia feel, and even did so a couple of times. I'm eagerly awaiting the upcoming third edition to try and get it right.

[Terraoblivion]

Very true. That has been the focus of my thinking, I suppose largely because most of my favorite styles focus on unarmed combat as well.
But you're right, that is absolutely needlessly limiting. I suppose an ideal system could/would combine unarmed and armed combat into a flexible whole. So definitely ignore my focus on the unarmed.

Several systems for that exist. But the ones I know about mostly center around wuxia martial arts, rather than the kind you could see at a real tournament or a martial arts movie, so they tend to be rather more fantastical and over the top.

That said, Legends of the Wulin is great for that, including with a lot of variety in its styles. Absolutely unrealistic and doesn't attempt to be anything else, but also really good in most ways.

[Glimbur]

Check out the Street Fighter RPG, by White Wolf. Every character chooses a style, and that affects how possible (or expensive) it is to learn various moves. It it not trying to be realistic, but if you are looking for all the ideas you can find that is an option.

It does have an unarmed focus though.

[Frozen_Feet]

Twilight 2000 has pretty impressive rules for firearms combat.

Overall, I've not played a game that could really capture feel of style differences. Interestingly, D&D has become worse at it since AD&D - 1st and 2nd edition had special rules for unarmed combat as well as things like weapon vs. armor tables and weapon speed. When the game was cleaned up for 3 ed, many differences between weapons and fighting styles were lost. While theoretically feats and skills would've allowed for quite significant modeling of different combat styles, I feel attempts to do so were lackluster. Tome of Battle almost got it, but screwed up in that it made actual choice of weapon even less relevant.

I'd say my greatest disappointments are that systems with large variety lack realism, while systems with otherwise working combat systems lack granularity. As a martial artist and a fan of historical swordmanship, it's somewhat sad that my real-life knowledge on the subjects is so often either inapplicable or irrelevant. Fortunately, there's effort made by Guy Windsor et all to fix this.

Plus, there's always LARPing.

[Rhynn]

Cyberpunk 2020, and by extension Fuzion, has a very simple way to make a distinction between martial arts styles: each style is a skill, and each style has a different learning difficulty (easier to master boxing than aikido), and gives a bonus (+1 to +4) to a variety of the dozen or so maneuvers that exist (e.g. dodge, parry, punch, kick, sweep, disarm, throw). In addition, some styles can be used to wield specific weapons.

The smart 'punk, of course, learns boxing and judo, getting the benefits of the best styles for a smaller cost (although in chargen it's cheaper to get one of the difficult styles). Realistic enough for me, because boxing does teach you how to do the basics (footwork & punching) very effectively...

There's some outliers with their own issues, like Panzerfaust, the cyborg martial art that lets a full 'borg literally punch through APCs and knock the heads off powered armor suits much bigger than him-/herself. (And some outliers with in-character issues, like Arasaka-te, a corporate-created martial art created that doesn't do anything very well...)

Of course, the actual combat system is often vague and a little confusing, especially as it comes to melee combat... but CP2020 is one of those old-school games where you can't get hung up on the rules, they're just a framework.

I'm away from my books right now, but the Fuzion-based Sengoku has IIRC a slightly different take on differentiating martial arts.

[Spiryt]

Cyberpunk 2020, and by extension Fuzion, has a very simple way to make a distinction between martial arts styles: each style is a skill, and each style has a different learning difficulty (easier to master boxing than aikido), .

Aw man, every connoisseur/adept of Sweet Science would go down hard on those guys and their heresies.

[Metahuman1]

Off hand, Mutants and Master Minds being heavy on fluff can do a fair number of things with a martial arts theme if you wanna go there.

Alternatively, I've never played it, but Anima: Beyond Fantasy has a detailed section of martial arts options for PC's. No idea how well it holds up in practice though.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Doesn't Shadowrun allow for characters who focus primarily on unarmed combat for fights?

[Kalmageddon]

There is the "Blood and Fists" manual for d20 Modern. It's a handbook entirely dedicated to martial arts, with various styles, manouvers, prestige classes, feats and so on.
It's actually pretty great, if not for the fact that the d20 Modern system itself is not loved by many. If, however, you don't mind tweaking the sistem a little to fit your needs I'd say it's what you're looking for.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I've actually been thinking about making a bespoke Martial Arts RPG but concluded that the granularity it would require would basically swallow the game.

At a first approximation, it would have Traits (e.g. Speed, Strength, Reaction) which would provide dice modified by the Stance chosen by the Character (e.g. "Springing Snake" Stance is Speed x5, Strength x1, Reaction x3). Then you could roll those dice and allocate successes to cause a given attack to have whatever effects you desire. "I have 3 Speed Success so I'm going to use 2 of them to gain Initiative on the attack and the 3rd for Superior Position. I have 2 Strength Successes so I'll use one for Defense Breaching and one for Damage. My 1 Reaction Success I'll leave in Dodge to avoid the Attack."

But yeah, most attempts to capture the whole interplay of any combat system end up consuming all the possible play-time available in a given game. Or are a lot of effort for very little return.

[PaintByBlood]

Off hand, Mutants and Master Minds being heavy on fluff can do a fair number of things with a martial arts theme if you wanna go there.

Alternatively, I've never played it, but Anima: Beyond Fantasy has a detailed section of martial arts options for PC's. No idea how well it holds up in practice though.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Doesn't Shadowrun allow for characters who focus primarily on unarmed combat for fights?

Yes, but Shadowrun is one of the ones I have a problem with. You can specialize in a martial art, but all it does is give you a +2 bonus to your unarmed combat skill. There is mechanically no difference between different martial arts, and it is all resigned to fluff.
This is an understandable route, absolutely, but I'd like to explore the options that don't take that route. (Note, this is going by Shadowrun 5e, so may be limited. Sorry, its the only one I've played!)

Lot of things for me to take a look at now, though! (Again! I'm not going to have much of a winter break.)

[TheThan]

lets see, dragon magazine has animal style kung fu.
i don't recall what number it's in number 319 may 2004.

[Thrudd]

I've actually been thinking about making a bespoke Martial Arts RPG but concluded that the granularity it would require would basically swallow the game.

At a first approximation, it would have Traits (e.g. Speed, Strength, Reaction) which would provide dice modified by the Stance chosen by the Character (e.g. "Springing Snake" Stance is Speed x5, Strength x1, Reaction x3). Then you could roll those dice and allocate successes to cause a given attack to have whatever effects you desire. "I have 3 Speed Success so I'm going to use 2 of them to gain Initiative on the attack and the 3rd for Superior Position. I have 2 Strength Successes so I'll use one for Defense Breaching and one for Damage. My 1 Reaction Success I'll leave in Dodge to avoid the Attack."

But yeah, most attempts to capture the whole interplay of any combat system end up consuming all the possible play-time available in a given game. Or are a lot of effort for very little return.

I've come to the same conclusion. Any system attempting to mechanically represent what really makes fighting styles different would be too cumbersome to play.

[Rhynn]

I've come to the same conclusion. Any system attempting to mechanically represent what really makes fighting styles different would be too cumbersome to play.

Even trying to quantify what makes them different is sort of a crazy undertaking.

For instance, how does Wing Chun differ, in (system-agnostic) game terms, from Choy Li Fut? How does Karate differ from Taekwondo? Nevermind how "karate" is almost meaningless in this context; are we talking American McDojo kids' karate, or Okinawa-te, or Kyukushin Kaikan? And so on.

Arbitrary or artificial differences, though, can be quite easy. (Like CP2020.)

[Thrudd]

Even trying to quantify what makes them different is sort of a crazy undertaking.

For instance, how does Wing Chun differ, in (system-agnostic) game terms, from Choy Li Fut? How does Karate differ from Taekwondo? Nevermind how "karate" is almost meaningless in this context; are we talking American McDojo kids' karate, or Okinawa-te, or Kyukushin Kaikan? And so on.

Arbitrary or artificial differences, though, can be quite easy. (Like CP2020.)

Exactly. That's a whole other discussion which is debated endlessly on forums devoted to martial arts. How to quantify and represent each style in a game would depend entirely on the experience and opinion of the designer. Superficial differences in styles is just about the only thing that I have ever seen a game attempt to represent.

[Rhynn]

Exactly. That's a whole other discussion which is debated endlessly on forums devoted to martial arts. How to quantify and represent each style in a game would depend entirely on the experience and opinion of the designer. Superficial differences in styles is just about the only thing that I have ever seen a game attempt to represent.

I wouldn't call CP2020's differences, for instance, superficial; having a +4 to punches is a fairly big deal, for instance.

But yeah, at best, these differences are ultimately arbitrary.

That's not to say a game system can't have meaningful differences between combat styles; The Riddle of Steel is a great example.

[Thrudd]

I wouldn't call CP2020's differences, for instance, superficial; having a +4 to punches is a fairly big deal, for instance.

But yeah, at best, these differences are ultimately arbitrary.

That's not to say a game system can't have meaningful differences between combat styles; The Riddle of Steel is a great example.

What I meant by that is the fact many stylistic differences, as commonly perceived even by martial artists, are ultimately superficial. That a game would give one style +4 to punch and another +4 to kick, for instance, is reflective of a superficial or very basic understanding of the martial arts systems. This may be the best that can be accomplished by a playable game, however.

[Frozen_Feet]

Thrudd, that's one of those statements that's both true and false at the same time. Giving a kicking-focused art a bonus to kicks is perfectly sensible. It's "superficial" in the sense that it's immediately noticeable, but it's also a relevant quality of that art. But yeah, if we go into deep stuff like strategy, minor differences in hand or foot positioning, training methods etc., most RPGs can't even begin to model those in a mechanically relevant level.

[Thrudd]

Thrudd, that's one of those statements that's both true and false at the same time. Giving a kicking-focused art a bonus to kicks is perfectly sensible. It's "superficial" in the sense that it's immediately noticeable, but it's also a relevant quality of that art. But yeah, if we go into deep stuff like strategy, minor differences in hand or foot positioning, training methods etc., most RPGs can't even begin to model those in a mechanically relevant level.

Yes, true and false at the same time, it depends where you are looking. It isn't that an art which specializes in kicks shouldn't get a bonus on kicks...but after enough time spent in any art, the initial focus of that art becomes less relevant. Many paths up the mountain and all that. All well-rounded martial artists will eventually have a bonus on kicks, strikes, throws and holds, be able to take some hits and falls, learn good positioning and evasion, as well as proficiency with at least a weapon or two. So it depends on what level we're talking about.

By "superficial", I mean the model of saying one style is good at kicks and another at hands and another at throws is modeling a beginner level of practice, or the view of someone looking from the outside in, though I suppose it does depend on the art. Sport styles do tend to specialize heavily around their rule-set and exclude many fighting strategies, and many modern styles have lost their holistic approach to fighting as hand to hand combat has fallen out of use.

To be truly realistic, the most experienced martial artist characters (who we must assume are involved in real combat and not sport fighting) would have fewer differences than similarities in their skills. Their most relevant differences will be in natural physical attributes and conditioning rather than combat skills. The difference in gameplay would be at inexperienced levels, modeling someone beginning their martial arts journey, where the various styles' approaches to teaching are most divergent. As the years go on, a good style will have taught all relevant skills for fighting regardless of where they started. Maybe each style would have one or two feats or tricks unique to it, but even that is questionable in reality. More like one style teaches you to kick and punch first, and you get throws and holds a little later. Another style does heavy body training up front so you get the bonus to toughness first, and the yet another begins with evasive footwork. After sufficient training, you have all the skills and the individual matters more than the style. How to model martial arts in a game depends on what level of expertise we expect the characters to start at and to eventually reach.

[TheCountAlucard]

Robert Vance, framing the martial arts styles of Exalted Third Edition in the familiar story of a bunch of martial arts masters sitting down to eat soup together…

• The Snake stylist delivers a withering flurry of fang strikes to the surface of his soup, disrupting the flow of chi across the meniscus of its surface tension before finally taking a sip using his spoon. Then he takes a moment to suck on his badly scalded fingertips.

• The Tiger stylist waits for the soup to flee from his menacing offense. After a few minutes of the bowl of soup taking no action to retreat, he gets annoyed and smashes it to the ground with a claw strike, then laps it up.

• The Righteous Devil stylist takes a long, long moment to glare at the soup, and finally pronounces it innocent. He saddles up and rides off into the sunset, looking for another town, and another souphouse.

• The Single Point Shining Into The Void stylist picks up his spoon from the napkin and manages to spoon the entire bowl of soup into his mouth in a single motion.

• The Heaven's Ladder stylist insists on eating his soup with a ladder rather than a spoon. Somehow, this works.

• The Black Claw stylist swallows a spoonful of soup before blowing on it, and makes a great display of how his tongue has been burnt. The hearts of everyone in attendance go in sympathy out to the Black Claw stylist, and they curse the wicked soup that would scorch so fair a tongue!

• The Crane stylist waits for the soup to make the first move, passing the time by idly discussing philosophy with his meal. After a few hours, everyone else is done and ready to go, but the Crane stylist has found the soup to have a rather charming and insightful personality.

• The Dreaming Pearl Courtesan stylist is too busy murdering someone with a razor-edged silver spoon to properly attend to her soup—by the time her victim's corpse has been disposed of and the unfortunate flecks of scarlet scrubbed from her kimono, it's gotten entirely too cold!

• The Ebon Shadow stylist hides under the table, and takes spoonfuls out of everyone else's bowls of soup.

• The Silver-Voiced Nightingale stylist manages to reach a pitch that shatters his bowl, and sends the soup flying in every direction. He manages to catch every droplet in his mouth before a single one hits the ground. When soup moves, he moves—just like that!

• The White Reaper stylist orders a dozen bowls of soup, and chugs them down one after another with a terrifying ferocity.

[Oracle_Hunter]

In other news, I figured a new method to attempt a Martial Arts RPG: Custom Dice.

This is a new-ish style of RPG, made popular by Fantasy Flight's Warhammer Fantasy and Edge of Empire but it is eminently suited for translating subtle differences between styles into a RPG.

A fight between the "Big Hits, Big Misses" School and the "Crippling Blow" School could have one side throw dice which are equally "Massive Damage" and "Miss" faces while the other throws dice with "Critical Hits" and "Minor Damage" faces (and a few Misses). To simulate fighting a more evasive school you have to throw Evasion Dice when you make your attack (made up of Blank and Miss faces).

Yes, this means the entire RPG will basically be about Kung Fu Fighting but skin it with a Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibe...

[CombatOwl]

I haven't been exposed to enough things in general, but one thing I have never found myself impressed by is how the systems I've looked through handle Martial Arts. Some of them just seem to throw up their hands and leave it to fluff (which is understandable, but I hope for something "better"), some make a strong attempt, but it isn't as flexible or varied as I might like.
Has anyone out there seen a mechanical take on Martial Arts that they were really impressed by? Realistic or fantasy are both fair game here, I'd just like to see something where the different styles are distinct, cover the main bases you might want to use, and don't end up convoluted or useless. (I'm aware of D&D3.5e's Tome of Battle and Pathfinder's [upcoming?] supplement in the same vein, before those get mentioned.)

Fate can be hacked for martial-arts focused games pretty easily. Different styles emphasize creating different situation aspects with Create an Advantage. You can give people styles (either as a collection of stunts, or as a custom extra), everyone has their own aspects, of course... if you really want to hack it deeply, adjust the skills to emphasize different sorts of martial arts, etc.

Anima works okay if you want over-the-top martial arts with energy blasts and shields and ultimate techniques and such.

[skyth]

I'll second the recomendation of the Hero System. Heck, they even statted up 'Football' as a martial art and it makes sense. Add in the stuff from the Ninja Hero book and you're golden.

[Thrudd]

In other news, I figured a new method to attempt a Martial Arts RPG: Custom Dice.

This is a new-ish style of RPG, made popular by Fantasy Flight's Warhammer Fantasy and Edge of Empire but it is eminently suited for translating subtle differences between styles into a RPG.

A fight between the "Big Hits, Big Misses" School and the "Crippling Blow" School could have one side throw dice which are equally "Massive Damage" and "Miss" faces while the other throws dice with "Critical Hits" and "Minor Damage" faces (and a few Misses). To simulate fighting a more evasive school you have to throw Evasion Dice when you make your attack (made up of Blank and Miss faces).

Yes, this means the entire RPG will basically be about Kung Fu Fighting but skin it with a Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibe...

Could be cool. Throwing a handful of dice which cover all the variables at the same time could solve the problem of complexities weighing down combat. And throw in a bonus die with extra damage if you describe a cool stunt or cleverly use the environment for improvised weapons. Bonus reroll if you actually perform the maneuver you describe for your character.