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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Hello everyone!

    Even though I like the Knight class from D&D 3.5 quite a lot (it might be my favourite class) I've always found that it doesn't fill his role very well, neither as a tank nor as a mounted fighter. So I decided to focus on his tanky role and to try to add some features to make it better at it. I haven't removed any class feature, I've just added or modified some special abilities or moved some other! Let me know what you think!


    Alignment-Any Lawful.
    Hit Die-d12
    Starting Gold-6d4 x 10
    Starting Age-Moderate
    Class Skills-Knights class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (engineering ) (int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobilty and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).
    Skill Points at 1st level-(4 + Int Modifier) x4
    Skill Points per Level-4 + Int Modifier

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Choosen Weapon, Fighting challenge +1, knight's challenge, knight's code

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Fearless, shield block +1

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Bulwark of defense

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Mount, test of mettle

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Armor mastery, vigilant defender

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Shield ally

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Fighting challenge +2

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Mettle

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Call to battle

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Improved armor mastery

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Shield block +2

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Daunting challenge

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Fighting challenge +3

    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Improved shield ally

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Superior armor mastery

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bond of loyalty

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Impetuous endurance

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bastion

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Fighting challenge +4

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Loyal beyond death, Perfect armor mastery, shield block +3

    [/table]

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Knights are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and all shields (except tower shields).

    Knight's Challenge: Your dauntless fighting spirit plays a major role in your fighting style, as important as the strength of your arm or the sharpness of your blade. In battle, you use the force of your personality to challenge your enemies. You can call out a foe, shouting a challenge that boosts his confidence, or issue a general challenge that strikes fear into weak opponents and compels strong opponents to seek you out for personal combat. By playing on your enemies' ego, you can manipulate your foes.
    You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/2 your class level + your Charisma bonus (minimum once per day). As you gain levels, you gain a number of options that you can use in conjunction with this ability.
    Even if you and your foes lack a shared language, you can still effectively communicate through body language, tone, and certain oaths and challenges you learn from a variety of different tongues.

    Fighting Challenge (Ex): As a swift action, you can issue a challenge against a single opponent. The target of this ability must have an Intelligence of 5 or higher, have a language of some sort, and have a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2. If it does not meet these requirements, a use of this ability is expended without effect.
    If the target does meet the conditions given above, you gain a +1 morale bonus on Will saves and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against the target of this ability. You fight with renewed vigor and energy by placing your honor and reputation on the line. If your chosen foe reduces you to 0 or fewer hit points, you lose two uses of your knight's challenge ability for the day because of the blow to your ego and confidence from this defeat.
    The effect of a fighting challenge lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma bonus (if any).
    If you are capable of issuing a knight's challenge more than once per day, you can use this ability more than once in a single encounter. If your first chosen foe is defeated or flees the area, you can issue a new challenge to a different foe. You cannot switch foes if your original target is still active.
    At 7th level, the bonus you gain from this ability increases to +2. At 13th level, it rises to +3. At 19th level, it increases to +4.

    Test of Mettle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the test of mettle. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.
    As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2 to make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.
    An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.
    If you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an opponent forced to attack you due to this ability, you gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability for that day. This additional use comes from increased confidence and the knowledge that you have proved your mettle as a knight against your enemies by calling out foes even against overwhelming odds. This additional use disappears if you have not used it by the start of the next day. You can only gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability in this manner per day.
    The effect of a test of mettle lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma bonus (if any). Whether a creature fails or succeeds on its save against your test of mettle, it can only be targeted by this effect once per day.

    Call to Battle (Ex): Starting at 9th level, you become an inspiring figure on the battlefield. When all seems lost, you are a beacon of hope who continues to fight on despite the odds. No cause is yet lost when a knight still battles on its name.
    As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to grant an ally another save against a fear effect. The target gains a bonus on this save equal to your Charisma bonus (if any). If the target succeeds on this save, he gains the benefit for a successful save against the attack or spell. This ability reflects your talent to inspire your allies in the face of a daunting foe. For example, Lidda fails her save against a lich's fear spell. On his next action, Sir Agrivail uses his call to battle ability to grant Lidda another save. If she succeeds, she immediately shrugs off the effect of the fear spell.
    Daunting Challenge (Ex): Starting at 12th level, you can call out opponents, striking fear into the hearts of your enemies. In this manner you separate the strong-minded from the weak-willed, allowing you to focus on opponents that are worthy foes.
    As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to issue a daunting challenge. This ability affects all creatures within 100 feet of you that have a CR less than your character level minus 2. Targets must be able to hear you, speak or understand a language of some sort, and have an Intelligence score of 5 or more. All targets who meet these conditions must make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier) or become shaken.
    Whether a creature fails or succeeds on its save against your daunting challenge, it can only be targeted by this effect once per day.

    Bond of Loyalty (Ex): Starting at 16th level, your loyalty to your comrades endures even in the face of powerful magic. You can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to make an additional saving throw against a mind- affecting spell or ability. You can use this ability once per round as a free action and can continue to use it even if an opponent is controlling your actions with a mind-affecting spell or ability.

    Loyal Beyond Death (Ex): At 20th level, if you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an effect that otherwise leaves your body intact, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to remain conscious and continue to act for 1 more round before dying. You can use this ability even if your hit point total is 10 or lower. If your body is somehow destroyed before your next action (such as by disintegrate), then you cannot act. You can continue to expend uses of your knight's challenge ability to survive from round to round until you run out of uses. If you receive healing that leaves you with more than 10 hit points, you survive (or fall unconscious, as appropriate to your new hit point total) when you stop using this ability. Otherwise, death overtakes you when you run out of uses of your knight's challenge ability.

    The Knight's Code: You fight not only to defeat your foes but to prove your honor, demonstrate your fighting ability, and win renown across the land. The stories that arise from your deeds are just as important to you as the deeds them- selves. A good knight hopes that her example encourages others to lead righteous lives. A neutral knight wishes to uphold the cause of his liege (if he has one) and win glory. An evil knight seeks to win acclaim across the land and increase her own personal power. The knight's code focuses on fair play: A victory achieved through pure skill is more difficult, and hence wins more glory, than one achieved through trickery or guile.
    A knight does not gain a bonus on attack rolls when flanking. You still confer the benefit of a flanking position to your ally, but you forgo your own +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can choose to keep the +2 bonus, but doing so violates your code of honor (see below).
    A knight never strikes a flat-footed opponent. Instead, you allow your foe to ready himself before attacking.
    A knight never deals lethal damage against a helpless foe. You can strike such a foe, but only with attacks that deal nonlethal damage.
    If you violate any part of this code, you lose one use of your knight's challenge ability for the day. If your knight's challenge ability is not available when you violate the code (for example, if you have exhausted your uses for the day), you take a 2 penalty on attack rolls and saves for the rest of that day. Your betrayal of your code of conduct undermines the foundation of confidence and honor that drives you forward.
    While you cleave to your view of honor, chivalry, and pursuit of glory, you do not force your views on others. You might chide a rogue for sneaking around a battlefield, but you recognize (and perhaps even feel a bit smug about) the reality that not everyone is fit to follow the knight's path.

    Choosen Weapon (Str): At 1st level, the knight get to choose one weapon between longsword, bastard sword, light lance or heavy lance. He receive Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with that weapon. Alternatively, if he already has Weapon Focus with the choosen weapon, he receives Weapon Specialization instead.

    Fearless (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, you are immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

    Shield Block (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, you excel in using your armor and shield to frustrate your enemy's attacks. During your action, designate a single opponent as the target of this ability. Your shield bonus to AC against that foe increases by 1, as you move your shield to deflect an incoming blow, possibly providing just enough protection to turn a telling swing into a near miss.
    This shield bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 20th level.
    Moreover, wielding a shield grant you the chance of parrying an incoming attack. A knight has a parry chance equal to (Shield bonus to AC x10)%; enchantment bonuses to AC does not count for the parry chance but bonuses provided by shield block or the shield specialization feat do. You can parry only melee and ranged mundane attacks. Starting at 11th level you can also parry incoming spells if they must hit your touch AC. Parrying does not consume any action but it can only be performed 1/round per attack granted by your Base Attack Bonus.

    Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain. Your strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force your opponents to move with care.

    Mount: At 4th level, the knight gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the knight's level -3 as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium knight can select a camel or a horse while a Small knight can select a pony or wolf. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.

    A knight does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his mount. The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A knight's mount does not gain the share spells special ability.

    A knight's bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other's moods and moves. Should a knight's mount die, the knight may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the knight gains a level.


    Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 5th level, you are able to wear your armor like a second skin and ignore the standard speed reduction for wearing medium armor and you also got a chance of ignoring precision and critical damage equal to 25%. Starting at 10th level, you ignore the speed reduction imposed by heavy armor as well and the chance of ignoring precision and critical damage raise to 50%. At 15th level the chance of ignoring precision and critical damage raise to 75%. At 20th level the chance of ignoring precision and critical damage raise to 100% and you gain DR 5/-.

    Vigilant Defender (Ex): Starting at 5th level, you stand your ground against all enemies, warding the spot where you make your stand to prevent foes from slipping past and attacking those you protect. If an opponent attempts to use the Tumble skill to move through your threatened area or your space without provoking attacks of opportunity, the Tumble check DC to avoid your attacks of opportunity increases by an amount equal to your class level.

    Shield Ally (Ex): Starting at 6th level, as an immediate action you can opt to absorb part of the damage dealt to an adjacent ally. Each time this ally takes damage from a physical attack before your next turn, you can take half this damage only absorb damage from physical melee attacks and ranged attacks, such as an incoming arrow or a blow from a sword, not from spells and other effects.

    Mettle (Ex): At 8th level and higher, a knight can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If she makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), she instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping knight does not gain the benefit of mettle.

    Improved Shield Ally (Ex): At 14th level, your ability to absorb damage increases. Once per round you can absorb all the damage from a single attack directed against an adjacent ally. In addition, you continue to absorb half the damage from other physical attacks on an adjacent ally, if you so choose. You must decide whether to use this ability after the attacker determines that an attack has succeeded but before he rolls damage.

    Impetuous Endurance (Ex): Starting at 17th level, your fighting spirit enables you to push your body beyond the normal limits of endurance. You no longer automatically fail a saving throw on a roll of 1. You might still fail the save if your result fails to equal or beat the DC.

    Bastion (Ex): At 18th level, a knight wielding a shield blocks the line of effect for all spells, breath weapons, and other such effects. For example, if a dragon uses its breath weapon, anyone standing behind the knight is not affected. In addition, she may shelter any one adjacent creature from all effects of an area spell.

    EX-KNIGHTS
    A knight who is no longer lawful loses the benefits of her knight's challenge ability. As a result, she cannot use class features that require her to expend uses of the knight's challenge ability, such as fighting challenge, test of mettle, and call to battle. She no longer takes penalties for violating her code of conduct.
    A knight can regain her status by returning to a lawful alignment.
    Last edited by CinuzIta; 2013-12-22 at 11:17 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    I like your project, but there are some problems.

    1. The skills list goes a bit overboard for my tastes. Diplomacy I can see, but everything else isn't obvious.
    2. Chosen weapon allows for Weapon Specialisation at 2nd level (or doesn't work at all without 4 levels of Fighter?). While WS isn't a very good feat, this is quite a change relative to the Fighter.
    3. The Shield Block mechanics are over-complicated. Just remember that a +1 bonus to AC = a 5% chance to avoid damage.
    Useful stuff on my blog:
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by WbtE View Post
    I like your project, but there are some problems.

    1. The skills list goes a bit overboard for my tastes. Diplomacy I can see, but everything else isn't obvious.
    What?

    Knowledge History/Siege are commonly used to represent battlefield/war tactics. Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive make no sense. On a Knight? Really?

    Chosen weapon allows for Weapon Specialisation at 2nd level (or doesn't work at all without 4 levels of Fighter?). While WS isn't a very good feat, this is quite a change relative to the Fighter.
    And nobody cared. Ever. Not even the Fighter. Because the Fighter probably wasn't taking that feat, and if he was, he wasn't taking it in any of the weapons the Knight was offered it in.

    The Shield Block mechanics are over-complicated. Just remember that a +1 bonus to AC = a 5% chance to avoid damage.
    Except that's not true when attack rolls go off the RNG. Which they do.

    You are the reason mundanes don't get nice things. Stop being that reason.






    At the OP: It's a good start. Honestly my biggest problem with the class is that Knights Challenge doesn't quite live up to expectations, and your fix doesn't touch that, which hurts it for me.

    The other thing is the Shield Parry miss chance thing... shield bonus %? With a +5 heavy shield at level 20, that's a 10% miss chance. That's pretty lame. Bump that up to 5% miss chance per AC bonus, and it'll actually be meaningful (granting effectively total concealment 50% miss chance at level 20).
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Well, about skill list:as Seerow pointed out, History/Engineering are aimed to represent a knight studies on tactics and sieges, a knight was not all heraldry and titles (wich Nobilty and Royalty stands for:)

    Listen and spot are useful on the battlefield as well as outside of it and same goes for sense motive: finding a battle's hot spots is vital to a knight as well as avoiding being feinted..but also in court situations knowing what a person is actually saying or what a two people are secretly telling each other can be immensly useful to a knight!

    There's obviously an error in the shield block calculation: it is supposed to be (AC bonus x10)%! I just miswrote it but I'll fix it!:)

    About knight's challenge: I was aiming to change them as well, I'm just unsure where I want to go with them..I guess I'll just search for people major complaints about them and fix them accordingly!

    I also wanted to change the knight's code in order to make it a bit less restrictive (I was thinking at something a bit more elaborated than those of the outlaw of the crimson road), but it could take a while as I figure out the restrictions and drawbacks!:)

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow
    You are the reason mundanes don't get nice things.
    I must have miscommunicated my intentions somehow. I didn't intend to start a flame war.


    Quote Originally Posted by CinuzIta View Post
    Well, about skill list:as Seerow pointed out, History/Engineering are aimed to represent a knight studies on tactics and sieges, a knight was not all heraldry and titles (wich Nobilty and Royalty stands for:)
    OK, that makes sense.

    Listen and spot are useful on the battlefield as well as outside of it and same goes for sense motive: finding a battle's hot spots is vital to a knight as well as avoiding being feinted..but also in court situations knowing what a person is actually saying or what a two people are secretly telling each other can be immensly useful to a knight!
    The problem with this kind of argument is that you can easily run it for other classes, including those that already have enough toys. For example:

    Sense motive is very useful within a temple as well as outside of it. Clerics need to avoid being tricked by religious enemies and it's also important in their religious communities to know what a worshipper is actually saying.

    There's obviously an error in the shield block calculation: it is supposed to be (AC bonus x10)%! I just miswrote it but I'll fix it!:)
    OK. My main problem with this mechanic is that it's unwieldy. You could set the Shield bonus as an absolute miss range on the roll "to hit" - i.e. if the attacker's die shows a number equal to or less than the Knight's Shield bonus to AC, the attack misses. (This is AC bonus x5%, but it's much simpler.)

    About knight's challenge: I was aiming to change them as well, I'm just unsure where I want to go with them..I guess I'll just search for people major complaints about them and fix them accordingly!
    I recommend starting by removing the uses/day. You might then need to check back through the abilities to make sure that the Knight isn't getting too much, but their Challenges will still be restricted by their number of Swift actions.

    I also wanted to change the knight's code in order to make it a bit less restrictive (I was thinking at something a bit more elaborated than those of the outlaw of the crimson road), but it could take a while as I figure out the restrictions and drawbacks!:)
    I feel that its restrictions aren't excessive, just wrong. Historical knights didn't act like that, they were practical enough to sieze advantage on the battlefield and often killed foes who couldn't defend themselves. You might want to incorporate some "Agincourt" clauses about having to charge into battle like an over-confident dupe, though.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by WbtE View Post
    The problem with this kind of argument is that you can easily run it for other classes, including those that already have enough toys. For example:

    Sense motive is very useful within a temple as well as outside of it. Clerics need to avoid being tricked by religious enemies and it's also important in their religious communities to know what a worshipper is actually saying.

    very true but a knight is also an expert combatant and fencer (wich a cleric is not) and sense motive is the skill that defend you from feint attempts..i'll think about it anyway!

    OK. My main problem with this mechanic is that it's unwieldy. You could set the Shield bonus as an absolute miss range on the roll "to hit" - i.e. if the attacker's die shows a number equal to or less than the Knight's Shield bonus to AC, the attack misses. (This is AC bonus x5%, but it's much simpler.)

    actually, with your mechanic the parry value is halved..here' an example:

    A 20th level knight wielding an heavy shield would have a parry chance of 50% [(shield AC bonus 2+ shield block AC bonus 3= 5) x10%= 50%], meaning he has the chance of parrying 2 attacks on 4

    Following your system, the same knight will be able to parry an incoming attack only if the attacker rolls 5 or less on his d20 roll...meaning 1 attack of 4...unless I'm making something wrong


    I recommend starting by removing the uses/day. You might then need to check back through the abilities to make sure that the Knight isn't getting too much, but their Challenges will still be restricted by their number of Swift actions.

    good advice, thank you...knight's challenges aren't that powerful to be restricted by uses per day but maybe I'll make them uses per encounter

    I feel that its restrictions aren't excessive, just wrong. Historical knights didn't act like that, they were practical enough to sieze advantage on the battlefield and often killed foes who couldn't defend themselves. You might want to incorporate some "Agincourt" clauses about having to charge into battle like an over-confident dupe, though.

    as you say, those restrictions aren't game breaking but are just wrong...probably the creators were aiming to give to knight in shining armor idea, where your PC would fight like a gentleman but the result is pretty lame...I'll consider yout idea but Iust pay attention to not make it a mindless berserker who charge without taking in consideration risks...like some french knights did
    Answers bolded in quote!
    Last edited by CinuzIta; 2013-12-22 at 11:17 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    I must have miscommunicated my intentions somehow. I didn't intend to start a flame war.
    No flaming. Just telling you that your attitudes represent everything that causes mundanes to fall behind. "Skills need to be more restricted!" "Miss chance is too complex, you can't have that!" "Oh my god it's better than the fighter, nerf it!". These are all three very common attitudes that result in every mundane class in the game sucking beyond belief.

    (and seriously, I'm curious. What's complex about a miss chance mechanic? There's a dozen spells, magic items, and other abilities that grant one passively. They're largely considered the only decent defense at high levels because they always work. Why is it so bad for the Knight to get one?)

    There's obviously an error in the shield block calculation: it is supposed to be (AC bonus x10)%! I just miswrote it but I'll fix it!:)
    In this case you may want to make it clear that it does not account for magical bonuses to shields, or a level 20 knight with a magic shield (25k gp or a low level spell), gets a 100% miss chance, which is probably too far on the strong end of things as a passive ability.


    About knight's challenge: I was aiming to change them as well, I'm just unsure where I want to go with them..I guess I'll just search for people major complaints about them and fix them accordingly!
    I'd recommend just making the abilities more effective across the board. Let's look at your various knight's challenge abilities in order:

    Fighting Challenge
    You use one of your very limited Knights Challenge abilities (you get fewer at all levels than a Wizard gets in spells per day) to gain +1 to hit and Will Saves against a single enemy for 5 rounds. With a bunch of restrictions on who you can use it on. This is your Knight's primary ability and only use of his challenge until level 4. It should be much more potent. At the very least, it has almost as many restrictions as Sneak Attack, plus a daily limitation, it should be something that is at least as combat impacting as sneak attacking when you use it. When you call out an enemy with a Challenge, the rest of the party should be ready to accept that enemy as dead and move on to other targets, not give you some bs bonus you won't even notice.



    Test of Mettle
    Then we move on to the level 4 ability. Test of Mettle looks like it should be useful: Force enemies to attack the Knight. You're building a tank, this is exactly what you want! But then you look at the restrictions. Only applies to monsters with your CR-2 (uh what? Why am I having to metagame to guess the CR of an enemy to use an ability?), plus all of the restriction of the challenge. Then on top of that, if an enemy would have to provoke an attack of opportunity to get into melee with you, they can choose to completely ignore it by meleeing whoever is closer to them instead. That completely defeats the purpose!

    And then the ability rewards you by giving extra daily uses for using this ability to bite off more than you can chew, and die in the process. What kind of ridiculous crap is that?!

    But seriously, this ability should be better all around. Drop the CR restrictions. You use the ability, creatures that are intelligent enough make a Will save or have to attack the Knight. Drop the clause about being able to attack someone else in melee to avoid AoOs, enemies can choose to use tactical movement or make ranged attacks, and even AoEs, but literally attacking the Wizard they were standing next to after you challenged him because the Wizard might provoke an AoO is bull**** on every level.

    Then have this test of mettle give the Knight some bonus defenses. Increase his effective shield AC by 1-2 (giving him 10-20% more miss chance), give him some bonus DR and/or Energy resists and/or fast healing. Make it so he uses this challenge to get everyone attacking him, and because he's in the zone he's much harder to take down than he would be if a bunch of guys in the street decided to jump him.

    Call to Battle

    The fluff here is nice, but seriously as a beacon on the battlefield all you can do is grant a reroll of a saving throw against a fear effect? To a single ally? And you're not even doing that as an immediate action, but have to wait until you're turn rather than right after they fail it? This is just another case of an ability so limited as to be a waste.

    Either broaden up the effects it will work on and/or make it affect everyone... or change its use entirely. Reading the fluff I was expecting something almost Marshall like in terms of buffing allies. Something like spend a use of Knights Challenge to rally all of your allies, giving them some sort of useful buffs. You could go a lot of routes with this, say a Last Stand type deal (all allies gain a bonus to AC and some temp HP for a few rounds), a leading the charge effect (think White Raven maneuvers here), or just general capability (Give all allies a moderate buff to hit/damage/saves for an encounter, a la inspire courage)

    Bond of Loyalty
    This is coming online at the same time many people are getting Mind Blank as a passive ability or hours/level buff. Frankly insulting. Straight up make it so using the Knight's Challenge lets you shrug off mind-affecting effects. Still weaker than a mind blank, but more useful than reroll a save.

    Loyal Beyond Death

    This is the core Knight's most impressive class feature. His one pretty cool ability. He's effectively immune to HP damage as long as he still has challenges. Unfortunately, it's literally a 3rd level spell (Delay Death) + a feat (Diehard) rolled together. Except the third level spell lasts rounds/level, and this ability lasts one round. At the very least let it last longer.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2013-12-22 at 11:31 AM.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    I would add Shield Evasion to (or within one of) the class' abilities.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I would add Shield Evasion to (or within one of) the class' abilities.
    That is evasion as long as you hold a shield?

    - Seerow: already fixed the shield block entry, I'll also fix the challanges as soon as possible taking in your consideration your opinions, if you also have any idea for the code I'd be more than happy to hear it!:)
    Last edited by CinuzIta; 2013-12-22 at 12:56 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by CinuzIta View Post
    That is evasion as long as you hold a shield?
    That's right. (not including buckler, of course)

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    That's right. (not including buckler, of course)
    With this class having a weak reflex save, and every reason to want to dump Dexterity (needing Str, Con, and Charisma at minimum, and being incentivized to wear heavy armor), would getting evasion while holding a shield ever really make a difference?

    Evasion only triggers on a successful save, and as a Knight, you're not going to have many of those. Is there a feat that lets you add your shield bonus from AC to reflex saves?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    With this class having a weak reflex save, and every reason to want to dump Dexterity (needing Str, Con, and Charisma at minimum, and being incentivized to wear heavy armor), would getting evasion while holding a shield ever really make a difference?

    Evasion only triggers on a successful save, and as a Knight, you're not going to have many of those. Is there a feat that lets you add your shield bonus from AC to reflex saves?
    For Shield Evasion, I'd consider replacing the regular Ref save with Fort save... or at least grant significant level-dependent bonuses.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    (and seriously, I'm curious. What's complex about a miss chance mechanic? There's a dozen spells, magic items, and other abilities that grant one passively. They're largely considered the only decent defense at high levels because they always work. Why is it so bad for the Knight to get one?)

    In this case you may want to make it clear that it does not account for magical bonuses to shields, or a level 20 knight with a magic shield (25k gp or a low level spell), gets a 100% miss chance, which is probably too far on the strong end of things as a passive ability.
    1. I think what he's saying (and i agree wholeheartedly with btw), is that messing around with miss chance at all is bad. It's an unnecessary extra level of defence and i'd not be sorry to see the whole rule and everything granting it thrown in the bin.

    2. Maybe i'm miss-reading the SRD but my understanding was that enhancement bonuses to armour reduce the AC check penalty rather than increasing the AC provided.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    1. I think what he's saying (and i agree wholeheartedly with btw), is that messing around with miss chance at all is bad. It's an unnecessary extra level of defence and i'd not be sorry to see the whole rule and everything granting it thrown in the bin.
    And you would be wrong. At high levels miss chances are the only really reliable form of defense, and everyone that matters will have one in some form or another. You want to be a tank, you need it.

    2. Maybe i'm miss-reading the SRD but my understanding was that enhancement bonuses to armour reduce the AC check penalty rather than increasing the AC provided.
    Yes, you are misreading that horribly. Masterwork reduces ACP instead of increasing armor, but actual magical enhancements boost your armor, and don't do anything to ACP.

    I'm guessing you only exclusively play low level. I can think of no other way your characters survive any encounter with a decent brute monster with ACs permanently stuck in the 10-20 range (no magic bonuses to increase it) and no miss chances.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2013-12-22 at 07:00 PM.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by CinuzIta
    very true but a knight is also an expert combatant and fencer (wich a cleric is not) and sense motive is the skill that defend you from feint attempts..i'll think about it anyway!
    There are plenty of classes that have Sense Motive without being expert combatants. If you're saying that the skill should be restricted to combat classes, that's a radical change.

    Quote Originally Posted by CinuzIta
    actually, with your mechanic the parry value is halved
    Yes, it's 5% per point of shield bonus. Note that this rate would allow you to dispense with the clause about disregarding enhancement bonuses to the shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by CinuzIta
    knight's challenges aren't that powerful to be restricted by uses per day but maybe I'll make them uses per encounter
    I don't see the point in restricting them at all. It's just added book-keeping.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow
    No flaming. Just telling you that your attitudes represent everything that causes mundanes to fall behind.
    Once again, I'm sorry if I came across as though I wished to have a discussion about the man (consider my emphasis in the quote) rather than the ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    I think what he's saying (and i agree wholeheartedly with btw), is that messing around with miss chance at all is bad. It's an unnecessary extra level of defence and i'd not be sorry to see the whole rule and everything granting it thrown in the bin.
    I don't mind miss chance as such (see my suggestion of an absolute miss range on the D20) but I dislike the extra die roll. D20 combat is already slow enough.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by WbtE View Post
    There are plenty of classes that have Sense Motive without being expert combatants. If you're saying that the skill should be restricted to combat classes, that's a radical change.
    That's true of course, anyway I'm not saying that Sense Motive should be restricted to combat classes only; I just thought that "valid social use" and "valid combat use" made the knight worth the skill!


    Quote Originally Posted by WbtE View Post
    Yes, it's 5% per point of shield bonus. Note that this rate would allow you to dispense with the clause about disregarding enhancement bonuses to the shield.
    Well, enhancement bonuses to the shield could or could not be useful depending on how the chance scales: with a 10% they're not, while they're required for a 5%...it's really indifferent, they're just needed if we're adopting your solution about the d20 roll (wich I don't dislike, I'm just thinking about the implications of it)

    Quote Originally Posted by WbtE View Post
    I don't see the point in restricting them at all. It's just added book-keeping.
    Well first of all, because I don't like the idea of the knight spamming fighting challenges everywhere! :P If I am to rewrite the challenges, I'd make them a bit more powerful, thus being able to spam a challenge like fighting challenge would be very wrong!:)

    Quote Originally Posted by WbtE View Post
    I don't mind miss chance as such (see my suggestion of an absolute miss range on the D20) but I dislike the extra die roll. D20 combat is already slow enough.
    Aye, that's also true, but I don't think that an extra die roll would slow things too much. Remember that is just a roll that don't require any calculation (you can immediatly see if your roll has passed, since the chance increases by multiples of ten, without calculating things...it really is just a matter of 1 second: you know your parry chance, you see the roll and if it happen to be a low roll then it's good, otherwise it's not that good), thus I believe is far more fast then, say, calculating damages:)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    1. I think what he's saying (and i agree wholeheartedly with btw), is that messing around with miss chance at all is bad. It's an unnecessary extra level of defence and i'd not be sorry to see the whole rule and everything granting it thrown in the bin.

    2. Maybe i'm miss-reading the SRD but my understanding was that enhancement bonuses to armour reduce the AC check penalty rather than increasing the AC provided.
    I don't understand how you could thought of that since he is presenting an alternative mechanic to the same ability and, apart from that, it is just another good defense that you can chose to use or not to use anyway: do you think that's horrible? Then, if you're playing this knight, don't use it, simply put:)

    But still, I can't figure why someone who has a good extra chance of surviving in combat would throw it in the bin because it is seen as a "bad" mechaninc (I can't figure out why it is seen as a bad mechanic either anyway)..think about it, if your class had this mechaninc are you really saying you wouldn't use it?

    2. As Seerow pointed out, enhancement bonus to armors provide with extra AC!

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    For Shield Evasion, I'd consider replacing the regular Ref save with Fort save... or at least grant significant level-dependent bonuses.

    Mmh, apart for the bad Ref save, I'm not sure about it because the class already get Mettle
    Last edited by CinuzIta; 2013-12-23 at 05:14 AM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Overall, I like the direction you are going.

    Its a class fix similar to the whole line of fixes I have and am still working on.

    Hit Die: I don't know if he needs the 12, he has two good saves already.

    Skills are great.

    Some of the existing Knight abilities need a rework, ie challenge, etc.

    You'll need to clarify the Weapon Focus/Spec for Chosen weapon.

    Mettle is a great addition.

    Bastion, love this.


    One thing I would consider adding/changing. You could run the Mount as a Paladins Mount with more options, defaulting to a Light/Heavy Warhorse.

    I would add the Mounted Combat->Rideby Attack->Spirited Charge Feat line starting at levels say 1, 2, and 3 to prepare them for their Mount. Gives the Knight the ability to effectively use his Mount, without having to devote every single one of his feats to be good at doing something he should be good at by default.


    Overall, like the direction you are going.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by CinuzIta View Post
    Mmh, apart for the bad Ref save, I'm not sure about it because the class already get Mettle
    How many concepts in fantasy are more iconic than a knight in shining armor blocking a dragon breath with his shield ?

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    How many concepts in fantasy are more iconic than a knight in shining armor blocking a dragon breath with his shield ?
    It seemed to me like that was the intent of Bastion. The party gathering behind the Knight because he's blocking the dragon fire from hurting them. But he's still taking the brunt of it, just tough enough to not particularly care
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by CinuzIta View Post
    I don't like the idea of the knight spamming fighting challenges everywhere! :P If I am to rewrite the challenges, I'd make them a bit more powerful, thus being able to spam a challenge like fighting challenge would be very wrong!:)
    ... an' lo, Sir Alaric did loose his fulsome cry of war - "NEXT!!!"

    A full rewrite is probably a good idea. I recommend trying to roll the "idiot clauses" into the fighting challenge, so that the Knight is obliged to call out the most fearsome foe and gains bonuses by doing so.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Class] Knight tweaked!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    It seemed to me like that was the intent of Bastion. The party gathering behind the Knight because he's blocking the dragon fire from hurting them. But he's still taking the brunt of it, just tough enough to not particularly care
    Where did you see that one?
    I can't find anything in the class description that grants it Ref-based resistances or decreased damage from area/energy attacks.

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