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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default [PF] Alchemist archetype: Bombardier

    The alchemist is one of my favorite classes but I always thought it lacks a dedicated thrown weapon archetype, which is strange, since this is part of his package. The grenadier is very badly put together, so I thought I would give it a shot.

    Basically, what I have come with is an archetype that trades his mutagen ability and his poison specialty for more thrown weapon capabilities. Baked into the mix are some fixes that I think every alchemist should get, mainly the ability to create alchemical items fast enough for them to be useable and the infusion discovery as standard.


    Bombardier (human)

    The bombardier is an alchemist who has focused on developing his bomb-throwing abilities. A distinctly human specialty, bombardiers are more often found working on the field rather than in secluded laboratories.

    1st ) Alchemy, bomb 1d6, infusion, throw anything, precise throw, ranged specialization
    2nd ) Discovery, fast alchemy, precise bomb, brew potion
    3rd) Bomb 2d6, extra bomb
    4th) Discovery
    5th) Bomb 3d6,
    6th) Discovery, Improved precise throw
    7th) Bomb 4d6
    8th) Discovery,
    9th) Bomb 5d6
    10th) Discovery, perfect throw
    11th) Bomb 6d6
    12th) Discovery
    13th) Bomb 7d6
    14th) Discovery, maximum damage
    15th) Bomb 8d6
    16th) Discovery
    17th) Bomb 9d6
    18th) Discovery, instant alchemy
    19th) Bomb 10d6
    20th) Grand Discovery

    Infusion (Su)

    As the discovery of the same name.

    (I always thought that this should be part of the standard package of the alchemist. As it stands now, it more or less means that all alchemists start with one feat less, since everyone takes it)


    Precise throw (Ex)

    The bombardier can throw any thrown weapon at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the -4 penalty. The bombardier is also treated as having the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats, for the purposes of qualifying for feats that can be applied to thrown weapons.

    (More or less, Precise Shot for thrown weapons only)


    Ranged Specialization (Ex)

    The bombardier is an expert in using splash weapons. He can thus ready and draw any splash weapon as a swift action. If he has two hands fre, he can draw and ready two such items. This benefit does not extend to bombs, infusions, potions or wands.

    However, the bombardier has not studied the creation of mutagens or cognatogens. Even if he acquires the ability to create them via his discovery ability, the benefits he gains from them are only half normal. The penalties, however, remain unchanged.

    (This has a twofold purpose: The first to sidestep the peculiar way PF and 3.5 deals with splash weapons. It seems that drawing a knife and throwing it is easier than drawing an oil specially prepared for throwing. Strange. Secondly, it is to signify that the bombardier really cannot use mutagens and cognatogens. This is his big trade-off, so he or she shouldn't just spend a discovery and acquire them)


    Fast alchemy (Ex)


    Whenever the bombardier makes alchemical items or poisons using Craft (alchemy), he or she uses the itemís gp value as its sp value when determining your progress (do not multiply the itemís gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost). Note that this does not change the cost to create it, only the time required.

    (This is another ability that I think should be integrated to the main alchemist package. It is the Master Alchemist feat cut in half. As it stands, no adventuring alchemist ever has the time to create his own alchemical items, mainly because the craft rules are broken as hell)


    Precise Bomb (Su)

    As the discovery of the same name.


    Extra bomb (Ex)

    The bombardier is much more efficient in creating bombs than most alchemists. He creates one more bomb for every level past the second. He thus hets one more at 3rd level, two more at 4th, 3 at 5th etc.

    (As an archetype specializing in bombs, he should be able to make more.)


    Improved Precise Throw (Ex)

    Your ranged attacks with thrown weapons ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your thrown weapons.
    Also, you are treated as having the Improved Precise Shot feat for the purposes of qualifying for any feat applied to thrown weapons.

    (Again, basically Improved Precise Shot for thrown weapons)


    Perfect Throw (Ex)

    You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). When attacking with a thrown weapon, you can roll your attack roll twice and take the higher result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, the other roll is used as your confirmation roll (your choice if they are both critical threats). You may attempt a perfect throw once per day for every bombardier level you have attained , and no more than once per round.

    (More or less, perfect strike for bombardiers, zen archer style)


    Maximum damage (Su)

    Once per day per two levels, your bomb deals maximum damage if it hits. You must declare that you are using this ability before rolling the attack roll.

    What do you think?

    EDIT: Cleared some typos and made changes to Ranged specialization. It seems that part of the 3.5 legacy is making splash weapons as awkward to use as say crossbows. This is just plain silly. Thus, I added as part of the package the idea that splash weapons can be drawn as swift actions.

    Also, after dwelling closer to some of the non-standard races, I decided to remove the human specialty. Ratfolks and tieflings would make great bombardiers!

    Finally, I would want to also use these with any alchemist.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype (human): Bombardier

    So... bump for comments?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype (human): Bombardier

    Interesting. I need to ruminate more on the balance between correcting flaws I. The system and making an archetype that balances against the others (thoughar nettle balance is all over the map anyhow).

    On issue I see is the flat half benefit from mutagens/cognatogens. This gives an odd bonus for the greater versions, something usually avoided. Perhaps a flat -2 instead.

    I like it, I just need to consider it some more before saying anything else.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype (human): Bombardier

    Thanks for the input Stack.

    As for the greater mutagen issue, bear in mind that the alchemist would need two discoveries invested to be able to take them. And I would be fine with odd bonuses. The overall message is "Don't you want to try something else?"

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype: Bombardier

    While I agree with you on feat taxes, I don't think this archetype should grant infusion as a bonus. It isn't thematic with the archetype; its just trying to address a shortcoming in class design which is outside the scope of an archetype.

    It would be helpful if this was formatted in a more standard fashion (x replaces y).

    Here's my crack at it (its late here, so expect screw-ups):

    Ranged specialization & precise throw -> replace brew potion (add caveat that it can still be taken as a feat)

    Precise bombs -> replaces poison use/poison resistance +2

    Extra Bombs -> I would have this replace mutagen and have it grant 2 bombs/level for every level instead of starting at 3. You could even flat-out remove the ability to take mutagens if you wanted.

    Have the improved and perfect throw abilities replace the increasing poison resistances (+4 & +6). Have max damage replace persistent mutagen, leave grand discovery as the capstone.

    Those are my thoughts anyhow.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype: Bombardier

    Quote Originally Posted by stack View Post
    While I agree with you on feat taxes, I don't think this archetype should grant infusion as a bonus. It isn't thematic with the archetype; its just trying to address a shortcoming in class design which is outside the scope of an archetype.

    It would be helpful if this was formatted in a more standard fashion (x replaces y).

    Here's my crack at it (its late here, so expect screw-ups):

    Ranged specialization & precise throw -> replace brew potion (add caveat that it can still be taken as a feat)

    Precise bombs -> replaces poison use/poison resistance +2

    Extra Bombs -> I would have this replace mutagen and have it grant 2 bombs/level for every level instead of starting at 3. You could even flat-out remove the ability to take mutagens if you wanted.

    Have the improved and perfect throw abilities replace the increasing poison resistances (+4 & +6). Have max damage replace persistent mutagen, leave grand discovery as the capstone.

    Those are my thoughts anyhow.
    Stack, again, thanks for the input.

    What you are suggesting looks like this

    Spoiler
    Show
    1st )Alchemy, bomb 1d6, throw anything, precise throw, ranged specialization, extra bombs
    2nd )Discovery, fast alchemy, precise bomb, brew potion
    3rd) Bomb 2d6, extra bomb
    4th) Discovery
    5th) Bomb 3d6, Improved precise throw
    6th) Discovery
    7th) Bomb 4d6
    8th) Discovery, perfect throw
    9th) Bomb 5d6
    10th) Discovery,
    11th) Bomb 6d6
    12th) Discovery
    13th) Bomb 7d6
    14th) Discovery, maximum damage
    15th) Bomb 8d6
    16th) Discovery
    17th) Bomb 9d6
    18th) Discovery, instant alchemy
    19th) Bomb 10d6
    20th) Grand Discovery


    Note that, this way, Improved Precise Throw and Perfect Throw come one and two levels earlier. When I designed it, I initially did it the way you suggest, but then I thought that this could be too much. Improved Precise Throw should at least be available at the same level that it is for other classes, like the ranger and the zen archer.

    Finally, as for the Brew Potion and Infusion thing: Taking both out makes the alchemist unable to share his gizmos with anyone else, period. And it takes two feats-again- to be able to act as a mediocre buffer. I think that this brings the feat tax problem back where it was initially.

    Of course, you are right that adding the infusion thing is a way to address design shortcomings (as is fast alchemy, as written above, which mimics the Master Alchemist feat, not the Alchemist ability.). If a DM would agree to put these in the main package, they would not be there at all. But I still think that Infusion at least should be available at the alchemist. Brew Potion, on the other hand, is one of the most weak crafting feats, no match for Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand. Its inclusion is on the meh side in any case.

    And what kind of alchemist cannot Brew Potions in any case?

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype: Bombardier

    Last game I dm'd, infusion was free, so I share your concern there. I would probably let brew potion in as well if I was running it, I was just looking at it against the other archetypes, not against what I would like to see.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype: Bombardier

    I'm going to echo the thought that having infusion here is kind of odd.

    Because of how you have written things, people might become a bombardier to get infusion for free, which seems off because A) that isn't what being a bombardier is about and B) you clearly seem to think that alchemists without this archetype should get it as well.

    Personally, I think that you have a general alchemist fix (letting it make stuff for others and craft faster) AND a specific archetype (the bombardier).

    Things would be a bit more clear if you teased the two of them apart in your opening post and wrote up the archetype like they are written up in the APG, UMag, or UCom instead of doing a chart of all 20 levels.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2013-12-29 at 10:39 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemist archetype: Bombardier

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    I'm going to echo the thought that having infusion here is kind of odd.

    Because of how you have written things, people might become a bombardier to get infusion for free, which seems off because A) that isn't what being a bombardier is about and B) you clearly seem to think that alchemists without this archetype should get it as well.

    Personally, I think that you have a general alchemist fix (letting it make stuff for others and craft faster) AND a specific archetype (the bombardier).

    Things would be a bit more clear if you teased the two of them apart in your opening post and wrote up the archetype like they are written up in the APG, UMag, or UCom instead of doing a chart of all 20 levels.
    Again, you are correct. In my defense, I did post a disclaimer in the original post that said that the two abilities got in the mix because I thought they needed to be added to the alchemist package. And I did say it in the comments.

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