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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    I dislike feat chains myself, especially when they become feat taxes. Two-Weapon fighting? I would have only one feat that allows the character to make an off-hand attack for each main-hand attack they have at no penalty (Cause even then it would still be weaker than two-handers).

    Dodge? Give them a dodge bonus to AC (2-4 or scaling), and allow them to designate a target and double their DEX mod against them (up to armor max).

    Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes? They get a bonus (+3 or scaling), and can make a reroll before they know whether they succeed or not, but must keep the second roll.

    Toughness? HP per level. Greater Toughness? Scaling damage reduction (Let's face it, casters can get better DR than even barbarians at much lower levels).

    Great Cleave? Rolled into cleave.

    I would also get rid of feat taxes and class abilities that allow you to do something your skill check should allow you to do anyways, such as Track and Trapfinding. I would also get rid of the requirements of skill tricks and allow you to do them if you can make the checks.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    My concern with scaling feats is the weird power-jumps when you start them at high level.

    Let's imagine the feat Awesome Armor Class, which boosts AC by BAB. Barbarian 12 takes the feat, and his AC jumps by 12?

    I think the game design is that scaling is accomplished by paying the feat tax for Improved XXX, Greater XXX, Perfect XXX every 4-6 levels.
    That's actually not an efficient system.

    A feat is "I trained to do a specific thing". So a barbarian takes Awesome armor Class and gains +12 AC after spending ten days In The mountains being assaulted by the native fauna, he comes back with reflexes trained to punch away incoming attacks and is also more flexible because of yoga.

    That's not weird at all. It's exactly what we expect from the training montage that comes with "I gain a level".


    If you are married to feat chains, you need two things.
    1) the bonuses from the early feats should improved based on how many in the chain you have
    2) each additional feat should allow a qualitatively different ability.

    Weapon focus gives a bonus to attack, which increases by 2 for every weapon focus feat you have. Improved weapon focus lets you do something with your focused weapon that cannot be done without it; say the weapon counts as a natural weapon for you and and gains the weapon focus bonus on critical confirmation rolls. Greater weapon focus lets you use your weapon as if it were your limb, the fighter version of eating peas with a knife; you can grab someone, pinch someone, hold a baby, climb a wall, swim, cast a spell, with weapon in hand as if you were unarmed.

    Stuff like that. Those are terrible examples, but each successive feat should be "greater bonus" and also "entirely new capability", otherwise the fighter who takes improved feat is a chump compared to the fighter who starts a whole new feat chain and gets an ability.
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2013-12-25 at 02:46 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    On-topic Questions:

    So do feats emulate spells and scale, or do they emulate spells? For example, is my feat at level 3 this:

    Blind Fight
    You can see any objects or beings that are invisible or concealed within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, hiding, concealed, and ethereal creatures.

    The feat does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility. It does not reveal illusions or enable you to see through opaque objects.
    Or is it this:

    Blind Fight
    This feat scales to your base attack bonus:
    BAB +1: When you roll miss chance due to concealment, you may roll twice and take the better result.
    BAB +5: You can see any objects or beings that are invisible or concealed within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, hiding, concealed, and ethereal creatures.
    BAB +10: You gain blindsense out to 60 feet.
    BAB +15: You gain blindsight out to 30 feet.
    Or should it be OK fighter feats to vary? If so, what restrictions get put on that?

    What do you think the is the optimum scaling speed for a feat that grants abilities? One per 5 levels, perhaps more?

    Should you do this for all feats?

    Should the scaling be the same on all feats? If so, how do you deal with the enormous power spikes? If not, how do you deal with the irregular power spikes?

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    the example you provide I think really doesn't help.

    Caster can still benefit from every upgrade, and I don't think caster really need anything at all to help them out.

    instead of provided the upgrades at every 5th BaB, have them come online at every additional Itinerative attack ( so +1, +6, +11, +16) that way the poor hard core shafted full BaB classes actually get some love over the classes that get spells.


    But I think some feats should work off of skill ranks as well so Rogues get some love as well.

    and Im not really seeing any power spikes.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Casters benefit way slower though. I'm OK with a wizard getting to see invisible creatures at will at level 20; I don't think that's really giving them much of a leg up in the world.

    The power spike is when you take 3 feats from fighter, 2 feats from levels, and 1 feat from human, and then when you gain your iterative attack at level 6 you get 6 special abilities from your feats.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    and somehow getting abilities from your feats is still weaker than 6th level spells?


    and its not NEW abilities, its continuations of old ability.

    Like how a Wizards takes burning hands its not that by 5th level burning hands gets 5 abilities it just scales up with the wizard.

    Thats what these feast are doing its not 'hey now you have new ability' its letting feats scale, like every spell in the world does, both in spell level and by caster level


    Somehow letting the fighter just do the latter ( scale by level) is completely overpowered? but Casters can go around being all geometric with their abilities but the poor fighter even getting linear scaling is too powerful?

    WHy can't Mundane have nice things? You already let caster change the world at a whim,, why cna't blind fight give blindsense at BaB +11? how is that so much more powerful that wizards getting see invisible at will?

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Here are some (completely made-up) examples of what should be entirely reasonable feats:

    Spoiler
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    Combat Expertise

    Prerequisite: Int 13+, Base Attack Bonus +1 or greater

    Benefit: At the start of your turn, you may choose to gain the equivalent of cover until the start of your next turn. If you do so, you also suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and effective level until the start of your next turn.

    If you use the benefit of this feat while you already have cover, you receive superior cover. If you use the benefit of this feat while you already have superior cover, you also receive a 50% miss chance, similar to the effects of total concealment.

    Special: A fighter may take Combat Expertise as one of her bonus feats.

    Spring Attack

    Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Base Attack Bonus +1 or greater

    Benefit: If you threaten a character, then whenever you move out of their threatened area into a space that you have not yet visited this round, you may make an attack against them instead of provoking an attack of opportunity.

    Attacks made in this way follow the same rules as attacks made as part of a full attack action: however, you may not use any of your other actions (besides those used to move) to make attacks on a turn where you claim the benefit of this feat, nor may you use the benefit of this feat on a turn where you have already done so. This does not prevent you from making attacks of opportunity.

    Normal: Moving out of a hostile character's threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from them.

    Special: A fighter may take Spring Attack as one of his bonus feats.


    If feats are doing what they should be doing, which is taking game mechanics that should be important, chewing them up, and spitting them out in an unrecognisable mess, then they often don't need any explicit scaling.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2013-12-26 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    That spring attack is fantastic. I will have to remember to trick you into feat conversations in the future to learn your ways.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    That spring attack is fantastic. I will have to remember to trick you into feat conversations in the future to learn your ways.
    In case you're wondering, the appeal of the combat expertise feat I just posted is that cover is an absolute defence against attacks of opportunity -- you can use it to safely cast spells, perform disarms and trips, and so on.

    Spoiler
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    Dodge

    Prerequisites: base attack bonus +4 or greater, Dexterity 13+

    Benefit: For every 100 feet of distance between you and an opponent, you receive a +1 bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to reflex saves against that opponent. You cannot fail reflex saves against effects created by an opponent who is at least 600 feet away, nor can such an opponent succeed on attacks against you.

    You may also nominate one opponent who you wish to concentrate on avoiding. You are considered to be 200 feet further away from that opponent when assessing the consequences of range for any targeted attack, spell, spell-equivalent, or special ability they employ, as well as for the purposes of this feat.

    None of the benefits of this feat apply while you are flat-footed or against opponents you are not aware of.

    Special: A fighter may select Dodge as one of her fighter bonus feats.

    Note: Inspired by the line "It's funny how some distance makes everything seem small" from Let it Go

    Mounted Combat

    Prerequisites: Ride skill (4 ranks or greater), BAB +1 or greater

    Benefit: While you are conscious, aware of attackers, and mounted, your skill at horsemanship allows you to protect either yourself or your mount from harm. The creature so protected cannot be targeted by attacks or other hostile effects, and is never considered to be within the area of any hostile effect.

    Once per round, an opponent may make a Bluff, Ride, or Spellcraft check to defeat your protection. This is opposed by your 'Take 15' ride check result, and an opponent who also has this feat receives a +5 bonus. If the opponent wins this opposed check, the protection granted by this feat is not applicable against their attacks and the effects they create until the start of her next turn. The benefit of this feat never prevents opponents from attempting to pull you from your mount using the Trip attack.

    In addition to this, your mount's movement never prevents you from making full melee attacks.

    Special: A fighter may select Mounted Combat as one of her fighter bonus feats.

    Note: I'm going to credit Frank and K for inspiring this one.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2013-12-26 at 10:11 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. No amount of fixing just the fighter, or even just the mundane classes, is enough. You have to, at the same time, fix the casters.

    D&D needs broad, sweeping changes across the board.

    On Scaling Feats
    They're a good place to start, though. For the past year I've been running Red Hand of Doom with the fixes linked in my signature below, which included making nearly every feat scale. Unfortunately this playtest reveals that the scaling in them was too large, like allowing Spring Attack to let you move up to twice your base speed, or being too free with giving out free/additional 5-ft. steps. And the monk class is too damn good.

    Still, that's what playtesting is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    WHy can't Mundane have nice things? You already let caster change the world at a whim,, why cna't blind fight give blindsense at BaB +11? how is that so much more powerful that wizards getting see invisible at will?
    Part of the problem is that by high level, wizards are in fact, for all intents and purposes, gods. They can bring people back to life or create new life, slay them with a glance, create planes of existence, achieve immortality...the list goes on.

    20th-level full casters are too powerful. Mundanes can't compete because what can you possibly give someone with no magic, that equals the kind of deific things that full casters can achieve? Many of which involve duplicating the kinds of things that mundanes can do?

    By 20th level, a fighter should be able to sunder castles, nevermind swords. He should be able to wrestle the Tarrasque, leap tall buildings in a single bound, swing his sword and scatter entire armies. And if you build it right, the 20th-level fighter already can...but, the wizard can do all that too, plus he can do it while safely hidden on his own private demiplane that he created.

    So, like I said, you need to not just give mundanes nice things. You need to take nice things from casters at the same time.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2013-12-26 at 09:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. No amount of fixing just the fighter, or even just the mundane classes, is enough. You have to, at the same time, fix the casters.

    D&D needs broad, sweeping changes across the board.
    What makes you think that we won't ever do anything about casters and casting?
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2013-12-26 at 09:57 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    You should never read a fix to one thing as if it's the only thing that will change.
    Um...I really should, actually. Because without seeing what's been changed about the wizard, etc., then I can't know whether or not the above is a successful fix. I also can't know what power level we're shooting for; do we want to bring the mundanes up to Tier-1, or are we broadly satisfied with where they are, or what?

    Like, for example, the Blind-Fight feat up there is clearly better than regular Blind-Fight and is now worth taking in the current play environment. But it still pales in comparison to equivalent-level spells.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2013-12-26 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Um...I really should, actually. Because without seeing what's been changed about the wizard, etc., then I can't know whether or not the above is a successful fix. I also can't know what power level we're shooting for; do we want to bring the mundanes up to Tier-1, or are we broadly satisfied with where they are, or what?
    Things have to start somewhere. Once the fighter and other nonmagical characters are fun, interesting, and entertaining to play, we'll know what to shoot for with the casters.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2013-12-26 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Things have to start somewhere. Once the fighter and other nonmagical characters are fun, interesting, and entertaining to play, we'll know what to shoot for with the casters.
    Okay, but again, how far do you want to take that? What's the relative power level you're shooting for? Should mundanes eventually become shounen manga type heroes, like Dragonball Z, who can shatter planets with their fists and use their ki to teleport across the planes and galaxy?
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2013-12-26 at 10:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Okay, but again, how far do you want to take that? What's the relative power level you're shooting for? Should mundanes eventually become shounen manga type heroes, like Dragonball Z, who can shatter planets with their fists and use their ki to teleport across the planes and galaxy?
    Have a cop-out answer: "I'll know inappropriate when I see it."

    I don't expect to ever see an ability doing either of those things that would actually be acceptable, but that doesn't mean that it could never happen. It depends on the precise implementation.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2013-12-26 at 10:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Okay, but again, how far do you want to take that? What's the relative power level you're shooting for? Should mundanes eventually become shounen manga type heroes, like Dragonball Z, who can shatter planets with their fists and use their ki to teleport across the planes and galaxy?
    Depends on what the game is aiming for. Some games really love that kind of thing. Other games don't.

    I am developing content for games that sort of blend 4e mechanical simplicity with 3.5 flavor and scaling. I've really stopped developing stuff over 10th level...and that's totally ok for my game. Somebody else might want a game where the balancing point is a high-op wizard. That's ok for their game.

    My 3.5 homebrew typically balances around T4 or low T3. WotC gave us the tools to make casters that Balance around that range -- particularly if you limit yourself to the first 10 levels of the game.

    That said, there are things you can do in 3.5 that some people might object to. Eldritch blast, for example, is not OP by the standards of the game, but a lot of players I have played with feel like the ability to circumvent the AC system (not technically true, etc, etc, systems mastery, handwave) is broken. Similarly, some people feel the same way about damage multipliers for power attack. Heck, Sneak Attack feels unfair and its the definition of a "balanced" feature for 3.5 (a matter of perspective -- my group came in on AD&D 2e).

    Ultimately, I think you have to look at what you want to include and then decide what changes have to be made. You can play a pretty fun and reasonably balanced game running pure mundanes, halfcasters, and initiators (I live here). You can have a balanced and fun game with fullcasters, as long as everybody is on the same page. Not every book, or every class is required for every campaign.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    ngilop, I have no idea what your post means in relation to mine. I don't even know how to clarify appropriately because your response seems so out-of-whack.

    The point is: fighters get scaling feats with level-appropriate abilities because BAB scales and the feat scales to their BAB. Wizards get scaling feats with not-level-appropriate abilities because their BAB scales half as fast. So now wizards have not been given amazing options, but fighters still have.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    ngilop, I have no idea what your post means in relation to mine. I don't even know how to clarify appropriately because your response seems so out-of-whack.

    The point is: fighters get scaling feats with level-appropriate abilities because BAB scales and the feat scales to their BAB. Wizards get scaling feats with not-level-appropriate abilities because their BAB scales half as fast. So now wizards have not been given amazing options, but fighters still have.
    To your earlier post: It really depends on the abilities granted fighters. Dimensional Punching? Maybe a problem. Free move and full attack, less so.

    You can give everyone scaling feats, but thats likely just icing on the cake in the face of the few hundred spells Wizards get. Wizards don't really need the feat support (and they have the best feat support aside from bards), because they can make new class features for themselves.

    In 3.5 as it stands, you really need to give mundanes something that magic classes dont have, because magic does essentially everything.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Have a cop-out answer: "I'll know inappropriate when I see it."

    I don't expect to ever see an ability doing either of those things that would actually be acceptable, but that doesn't mean that it could never happen. It depends on the precise implementation.
    "Either of those things" = planet-shattering punch and ki teleportation across galaxies/planes.

    I think that if you fluff the setting right, and fluff Rogues just right, then high-level Rogues can get abilities like Passwall.

    Magic is the shaping of matter by the mind. (Or more delicately, the shaping of other minds by the mind.). Every living being uses magic to some degree--the master swordsman focuses his will through his sword, the master smith through his hammer. The master rogue focuses his will through using subtletly, working through gentle persuasion of objects.

    A lock can be cajoled and persuaded to open. A gate can be persuaded that you are really as large as you seem to be and can squeeze through. The world can be persuaded that you aren't actually there, briefly creating a pocket demiplane outside the Prime Material Plane. And a wall can be persuaded that you are actually a ghost and can pass through without hindrance.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    "Either of those things" = planet-shattering punch and ki teleportation across galaxies/planes.
    It's not exclusively about the fluff, nor is it about the fluff in the sense you're talking about. It doesn't matter whether or not the guy blowing up planets is wearing a pointy hat, what does matter is that the ability to blow up a planet is done in such a way that it adds to the game as a whole.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    It's not exclusively about the fluff, nor is it about the fluff in the sense you're talking about. It doesn't matter whether or not the guy blowing up planets is wearing a pointy hat, what does matter is that the ability to blow up a planet is done in such a way that it adds to the game as a whole.
    I'd add, however, that what also matters is that IF that guy blowing up a planet is wearing a pointy hat, then the guy in plate mail carrying a broadsword should have an option open to him of similar scale, that does not require him to take off his armor and put on wizard robes and a pointy hat himself, nor fake having done so really well.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    I think an important thing to clear up is that when designing a useful fighter, you don't need to give them exclusive stuff. You certainly could, but a competitive fighter just needs to do competitive things, regardless of whether other classes could do the same.

    If the fighter gets the equivalent of a passive buff spell every level, he'd be doing less than what an equal-level DMM persist cleric could pull off, but that's OK because if the fighter is contributing well enough to the adventure, then we've succeeded in making him balanced.

    Part of the reason fighter fixes drive me crazy is because people always include brand new mechanics or new sources of bonuses and so on, when there are literally millions of individual ideas and mechanics on the internet and in print that you could recycle almost word-for-word.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Part of the reason fighter fixes drive me crazy is because people always include brand new mechanics or new sources of bonuses and so on, when there are literally millions of individual ideas and mechanics on the internet and in print that you could recycle almost word-for-word.
    For the record, my fighter fixes tend to basically gestalt every fighter variant I can find. Pathfinder, PHBII, Zhentarium, Dungeon Crasher, etc. I even go to relatively obscure stuff; my current version has stuff from Diablo II: Diablerie in it.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2013-12-28 at 02:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    I'd add, however, that what also matters is that IF that guy blowing up a planet is wearing a pointy hat, then the guy in plate mail carrying a broadsword should have an option open to him of similar scale, that does not require him to take off his armor and put on wizard robes and a pointy hat himself, nor fake having done so really well.
    Actually, I don't think so. The fighter is not about being (conceptually) as powerful as certain other character classes, it's about having the training and awareness such that he doesn't need to be.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Actually, I don't think so. The fighter is not about being (conceptually) as powerful as certain other character classes, it's about having the training and awareness such that he doesn't need to be.
    Yeah man. I love putting all that effort into training and awareness to be less powerful than anyone else.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Actually, I don't think so. The fighter is not about being (conceptually) as powerful as certain other character classes, it's about having the training and awareness such that he doesn't need to be.
    That's nice, but at 20th level, when fighting the tarrasque, or when needing to raid Nessus to kick Asmodeus' butt, or whatever, the fighter should be able to contribute equally to each other member in his adventuring party.

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    That's nice, but at 20th level, when fighting the tarrasque, or when needing to raid Nessus to kick Asmodeus' butt, or whatever, the fighter should be able to contribute equally to each other member in his adventuring party.
    Uh, yes? The question is how he does that, not whether or not he can do it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Yeah man. I love putting all that effort into training and awareness to be less powerful than anyone else.
    I must have missed the part in the classic David vs. Goliath story where it turned out that David was just as strong and tough as Goliath.

    In any event, your character can still be David when they're fending off the arrows of a hundred thousand soldiers, and they can still be David when they're cutting down every last one of those soldiers without suffering so much as a scratch.

    And we already have plenty of Goliath classes -- the barbarian, wizard, and cleric, for a start. Precisely why should the fighter be among them?
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2013-12-28 at 12:44 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    I must have missed the part in the classic David vs. Goliath story where it turned out that David was just as strong and tough as Goliath.
    He wasn't as strong as Goliath, but he still had something he could do that allowed him to play on equal or greater footing with Goliath. Also, having God on his side probably didn't hurt, either.

    This also isn't a really good comparison because in this metaphor, it seems to me that it's more likely that Goliath is the fighter (what with all the detail that Samuel 17-4 to 17-7 go into about his arms and armor), and David, the wizard (cleric, whatever), given that despite all the WBL that Goliath blew into his weapons and armor, freakin' David the Cleric comes along and just casts magic stone.

    That is what it feels like to be a 20th level fighter. You put all this time and effort and energy into becoming the fightiest fighter that ever fought, lugging around arms and armor worth more than the GDP of Thay, and then some ass with a sling comes along and totally invalidates you with a 1st-level spell.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2013-12-28 at 01:05 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    He wasn't as strong as Goliath, but he still had something he could do that allowed him to play on equal or greater footing with Goliath.
    Yes. The point you were supposed to be taking away from me bringing it up was "raw strength or power isn't everything".

    Also, having God on his side probably didn't hurt, either. This also isn't a really good comparison because in this metaphor, it seems to me that it's more likely that Goliath is the fighter (what with all the detail that Samuel 17-4 to 17-7 go into about his arms and armor)
    You are taking the comparison to David and Goliath way more literally than I intended.

    The duke who throws a thousand soldiers at a problem? Goliath.

    The sorcerer who throws his strongest spell at a problem? Goliath.

    The tough guy who shrugs off that spell? Also Goliath.

    The guy who cuts down those thousand soldiers, taking not a scratch in the process; dodges round the sorcerer's spells; and kills the tough guy with a perfectly placed dagger to the eye? That's a David.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2013-12-28 at 01:47 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Scaling Fighter Feats: Know Any Good Ones? Any Advice for Making Them?

    So your ideal fighter fix is one where the fighter avoids getting hit instead of toughing it out and hits once when others would hit a bunch of times?

    That really feels more like a rogue/assassin class, but I can see where you're going.

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