Comp. Scoundrel

[Fireball.Man.Guy.]

Book just arrived 15 minutes ago from Amazon, it is AWESOME!!! Anybody else have it?

[MrNexx]

You can tell in 15 minutes that an entire book is awesome? You read fast.

[Shisumo]

You can tell in 15 minutes that an entire book is awesome? You read fast.

Yeah! I think it took me about 45 minutes to decide that!

[Rumda]

what classes benefit most from the content is it just rogue types? (which should really be obvious but...)

[Raz]

Actually I believe that every class can benefit from the Complete Scoundrel. Well possibly not Paladins, specially not Miko-nites, but some paladins might find it useful.

Any character that wants a bit of scoundrellyness to their character should at least take a gander at Complete Scoundrel.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

And I just ordered mine to arrive tomorrow! Sweet!

I'm a big fan of thieves :D

[Everyman]

Actually, paladins actually recieve one of the few 10 level PrCs in the book. Let me tell you, the Grey Guard is fun. It may not be the most powerful PrC (I don't know, as I haven't played that much yet), but it essentially fixes the rather shoddy paladin restrictions within the core PHB, allowing paladins to do what is necessary rather than what is right. Also, it incorporates well with what paladins already do and expands on the iconic paladin abilities (smite and lay on hands) by giving those abilities extra uses.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with CS design. It's flexible, contains material that actually is unique and only mentions previously mentioned material in sidebars (so one doesn't have to go looking in multiple books). It gets a 9.5 out of 10.

[Dhavaer]

It gets a 9.5 out of 10.

What would you give Comp. Mage?

[Ramza00]

Actually, paladins actually recieve one of the few 10 level PrCs in the book. Let me tell you, the Grey Guard is fun. It may not be the most powerful PrC (I don't know, as I haven't played that much yet), but it essentially fixes the rather shoddy paladin restrictions within the core PHB, allowing paladins to do what is necessary rather than what is right. Also, it incorporates well with what paladins already do and expands on the iconic paladin abilities (smite and lay on hands) by giving those abilities extra uses.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with CS design. It's flexible, contains material that actually is unique and only mentions previously mentioned material in sidebars (so one doesn't have to go looking in multiple books). It gets a 9.5 out of 10.

Only problem with the GreyGuard is that it gives 5/10 casting. Of course a Paladin 4/X 1/Hospilitar 5/Grey Guard will be a better caster and paladin than paladin 20.

[Everyman]

And a Cleric/ Prestige Paladin/ Grey Guard beats them all.

Frankly, I'm not losing any sleep over my lost spell slots. Rare is it that I wish I had more paladin spells per day.

[Skyserpent]

Complete Scoundrel. Fun times, fun times...

9 out of 10.

[Shisumo]

Actually, paladins actually recieve one of the few 10 level PrCs in the book. Let me tell you, the Grey Guard is fun. It may not be the most powerful PrC (I don't know, as I haven't played that much yet), but it essentially fixes the rather shoddy paladin restrictions within the core PHB, allowing paladins to do what is necessary rather than what is right. Also, it incorporates well with what paladins already do and expands on the iconic paladin abilities (smite and lay on hands) by giving those abilities extra uses.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with CS design. It's flexible, contains material that actually is unique and only mentions previously mentioned material in sidebars (so one doesn't have to go looking in multiple books). It gets a 9.5 out of 10.

Actually, both the Grey Guard and the Malconvoker raise some serious alignment issues, and in classic D&D fashion, they do far more to muddy the waters than to clarify anything. FOr me, though, this isn't a complaint - I think trying to work through those issues IC would be an awesome roleplaying experience. I've been kicking around an idea for my next character, a CG Infernal Heritage sorcerer headed for the Malconvoker PrC, for the last couple days...

[pestilenceawaits]

woohoo I am excited to hear it is good. Mine should be here in the next couple of days thanks to the free ten dollars from google checkout.

[Renegade Paladin]

I was actually rather disappointed with the grey guard. I had expected something more in the way of, I dunno, non-standard scoundrel-like abilities rather than "woohoo, you get to ignore the Code now!"

[Shisumo]

I was actually rather disappointed with the grey guard. I had expected something more in the way of, I dunno, non-standard scoundrel-like abilities rather than "woohoo, you get to ignore the Code now!"

While I can sympathize with your disappointment to a certain extent, I think that it's mostly because of your expectations rather than what the book actually offers. The GG is a very thematic class for "paladins on the edge" - the opening flavor text perfectly encapsulates the way the class is presented:

"Does your stout armor give you peace of mind? Does your holy sword help you sleep at night? Mine do not."

- Ambros Brasmere, gray guard

They are scoundrels, from a certain point of view: they're paladins who use their lay on hands ability to torture, who can smite anyone who gets in their way, good or evil, who can atone freely because they know, deep down, that what they're doing is right - no matter the cost. It's an excellent class, and one I'm looking forward to uses at some point (probably in Eberron - there's so much that cries out "corruption in the Silver Flame!" here that it makes me giddy to contemplate it...).

[Person_Man]

I have the book. I bought it online for a very good deal before it came out in bookstores, hoping that it would help out my beloved Skill Monkeys. I've read 80% of it. I thought it was a waste of money.

The "Scoundrels of all types" fluff and "Scoundrel Adventures" of various thieves guild/organizations is brief, not particularly inspiring or instructive (unlike the PHBII, which did an excellent job in a similar vein), and often gave very bad crunch advice.

There is one or two good Prestige Classes. There is one useful spell. The equiptment section was uninspiring, and really a huge missed opportunity (think of all the cool James Bond like stuff they could have introduced, but didn't).

Most of the feats were useless, particularly the Luck feats. Daring Outlaw made Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 a good option. And the Scout got some love. But that's about it.

The Skill tricks, while nifty and situationally useful, add ANOTHER game mechanic that is needlessly complex. Rather then giving you a Trick that costs 2 Skill points and allows you to Tumble through an enemy's square to make him flat footed for your next attack during that round, they should have just made it a DC 30 Tumble check.

I wish they would have published a complilation of all the Skills, including all the new options for each Skill that seem to come out with every splat book. Now that would have been useful!

I give it a 2/10, almost as bad as Complete Psionic.

[Telonius]

Unfortunately it's still on order from my local bookseller. I should have it by Monday. (Sigh, too late for the Sunday D&D session).

[Renegade Paladin]

While I can sympathize with your disappointment to a certain extent, I think that it's mostly because of your expectations rather than what the book actually offers. The GG is a very thematic class for "paladins on the edge" - the opening flavor text perfectly encapsulates the way the class is presented:



They are scoundrels, from a certain point of view: they're paladins who use their lay on hands ability to torture, who can smite anyone who gets in their way, good or evil, who can atone freely because they know, deep down, that what they're doing is right - no matter the cost. It's an excellent class, and one I'm looking forward to uses at some point (probably in Eberron - there's so much that cries out "corruption in the Silver Flame!" here that it makes me giddy to contemplate it...).

They're definitely scoundrels; I just think it was completely the wrong way to go with it. One can still be a scoundrel within the presented sample code of the PHB; one of my favorite characters is such a one (and multiclassed into rogue, or more accurately multiclassed into paladin as he picked up all his rogue levels first). Being a scoundrel doesn't require torturing people, and being a paladin requires that you don't. Doing the right thing in the right way is part of being lawful good, to say nothing of paladinhood; saying that the ends justify the means and then acting on it leans awfully far towards chaos (to put it charitably; there's a strong argument to be made for lawful evil in that approach). Essentially, the class was made to ignore a Code that doesn't need to be ignored in order to accomplish things in a non-standard fashion. About the only ability that even gave a nod to what I was hoping for is Unbound Justice.

[Ramza00]

While I can sympathize with your disappointment to a certain extent, I think that it's mostly because of your expectations rather than what the book actually offers. The GG is a very thematic class for "paladins on the edge" - the opening flavor text perfectly encapsulates the way the class is presented:



They are scoundrels, from a certain point of view: they're paladins who use their lay on hands ability to torture, who can smite anyone who gets in their way, good or evil, who can atone freely because they know, deep down, that what they're doing is right - no matter the cost. It's an excellent class, and one I'm looking forward to uses at some point (probably in Eberron - there's so much that cries out "corruption in the Silver Flame!" here that it makes me giddy to contemplate it...).

So are we going to see Miko take this prestige class in the future

[Renegade Paladin]

I doubt it. The Grey Guard is a paladin stripped of naivete and idealism. Miko has both in spades and refuses to let go of them.

[Everyman]

Wow, P_Man...I'm essentially your opposite. I thought the book added a lot to the game that should have been here long ago. I won't argue that the fluff in the beginning is a off though. That's were the book lost some points with me.

I don't know if I agree with the PrC arguement. I personally like quite a few of them (especially the Fortune's Friend). The only prestige classes I looked at funny were the Magical Trickster (I think that's the name) and Uncanny Trickster (again, I believe that's the name). They just seem a bit...bleh. Of course, that might be due to my personal playing style not being in sync with those PrCs.

I haven't had a chance to actually play with the feats, so I'm not passing judgement quite yet. They look fine to me and the ambush feats give a bit of tactical flavor to your rogue. Also, never condemn the awesome that Luck feats represent. I know they are not exactly powerhouse feats, but they are so much fun! Our own Fortune's Friend has already made the DM's eye twitch more than a few times, and we're only in our second game with him.

I guess it really boils down to playing style. I really like scoundrel/skill monkey/jack o' all trade characters, so the book is a boon to me. Perhaps this book just doesn't offer what you are looking for.

[Ramza00]

I doubt it. The Grey Guard is a paladin stripped of naivete and idealism. Miko has both in spades and refuses to let go of them.

I see a change in her future, not neccessary a change to blackguard or anything but someone who holds on to her simple ideals and does whatever she have to make sure her idea of the world is uphold. Even if it means going against her commander and doing a coup or going against the OOTS if her commander orders her not to do it.

[Person_Man]

Wow, P_Man...I'm essentially your opposite. I thought the book added a lot to the game that should have been here long ago. I won't argue that the fluff in the beginning is a off though. That's were the book lost some points with me.

I don't know if I agree with the PrC arguement. I personally like quite a few of them (especially the Fortune's Friend). The only prestige classes I looked at funny were the Magical Trickster (I think that's the name) and Uncanny Trickster (again, I believe that's the name). They just seem a bit...bleh. Of course, that might be due to my personal playing style not being in sync with those PrCs.

I haven't had a chance to actually play with the feats, so I'm not passing judgement quite yet. They look fine to me and the ambush feats give a bit of tactical flavor to your rogue. Also, never condemn the awesome that Luck feats represent. I know they are not exactly powerhouse feats, but they are so much fun! Our own Fortune's Friend has already made the DM's eye twitch more than a few times, and we're only in our second game with him.

I guess it really boils down to playing style. I really like scoundrel/skill monkey/jack o' all trade characters, so the book is a boon to me. Perhaps this book just doesn't offer what you are looking for.

OK, we're in agreement about the lousy fluff.

I think that's sad. What I want out of a D&D book is interesting fluff that gives me new ideas for characters and campaigns, with well thought out and useful crunch to help me make those ideas a reality. PHBII, Complete Warrior, and Draconomicon come to mind.


On the crunch:

Most of the Luck Feats with no prereqs are useless. Reroll 1 Bluff check once per day, or something similar. For a feat. It's widely recognized that the current Skill feats are pretty useless. If you're taking Investigator or something similar and its not a prereq for a very good PrC, you're doing something very wrong.

Some of the other Luck feats are ok, like the ability to reroll a certain Saving Throw or an attack roll Luck Feat # of times per day, for example. But they require two other Luck Feats and often something else useless as a Prereq. Three feats in order to reroll a Saving Throw? Seriously? In any game where a DM has the standard 4ish encounters per day, these are a serious waste of precious feats.

Most of the Ambush Feats are similar. Sacrifice 4d6 of Sneak Attack to give your opponent a -4 penalty to something. That rarely makes sense, since most enemies that you've managed to flank or catch flat footed are usually killed in 1 or 2 rounds. It makes more sense just to deal your full Sneak Attack damage most of the time, rather then waste a feat to give them some hokey penalty that won't matter in 6 seconds. Now, if it was a -4 penalty to something in addition to your SA damage, that would be good. But that's not what the Ambush feats do.

My gripe with the PrCs is that 8/10 of them are pretty useless. None really grabbed me as having any particularly interesting fluff. Most had piss poor mechanics.

I see how its fun from a fluff standpoint. But Skill Monkeys are already on the low end of the power spectrum. Giving them fun but underpowered feats isn't helping anyone, and they'll be a lot fun once the player tries them in combat and they have very little effect, making him regret his feat choices.

But hey, different folks, different strokes.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

Not read it yet, so I could be wrong, but the Grey Guard thing sounds awful. If you want to torture and be on the edge, why play a paladin to begin with?

[Renegade Paladin]

I dunno, some of the ambush feats might be useful if you're frequently trying to take people alive.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

This sounds more and more like Batman's book.

[Shisumo]

Most of the Luck Feats with no prereqs are useless. Reroll 1 Bluff check once per day, or something similar. For a feat. It's widely recognized that the current Skill feats are pretty useless. If you're taking Investigator or something similar and its not a prereq for a very good PrC, you're doing something very wrong.

Typically it's three skills, and (assuming I'm doing my math right - statistics was never my strong suit) it's roughly equivalent to +5 to a check on the skill, 1/day/luck feat you have.

There's also a Luck feat that lets you reroll any skill check you have a score in, 1/day/luck feat.

Some of the other Luck feats are ok, like the ability to reroll a certain Saving Throw or an attack roll Luck Feat # of times per day, for example. But they require two other Luck Feats and often something else useless as a Prereq. Three feats in order to reroll a Saving Throw? Seriously?

No, not seriously. Three feats to convert a 1 on a saving throw - i.e., autofailure - into a 20 - i.e., autosuccess. (There's a feat that lets you do the same thing with an attack roll.) Two feats are required to reroll a saving throw, and you will automatically be able to do it 2/day.

I'm not saying that these feats are exactly killer, but at least give them the credit they're due; you don't have to make them worse than they are...