Is STR really that good?

[Lord_Kimboat]

WotC seems to think that Str is the best stat. After all, any race or class which increases Str has some pretty serious negatives. Half-Orcs are the only core race that gets a Str bonus and they lose two other stats supposedly to balance it. I know in Star Wars there is a race that loses Str and gets two other stats plus several other abilities to balance it.

To me, Str is balanced all by itself. It does add to melee hit and damage, increases carrying cap, but it doesn't help a saving throw and has about 5 skills that use it as a modifier.

What is everyone else's opinion? Am I just ignorant of some hidden advantage of Str?

[Suzaku]

Not mention one of the classes that's tied with Cleric in terms of power is druid and their dump stat is Str.

[mikeejimbo]

I'm rather inclined to agree with you. Sure, it improves your damage, but at high levels, a spell will do much more damage. And things like Weapon Finesse make it not the only stat that increases your chance to hit.

[Indoril]

I think it's because so many classes use Strength as their key or one of their key abilities. Than and as you said it increases load capacity, melee damage, ranged damage on hurled weapons and composite bows. The five skills it adds to are fairly key skills. In order to adventure you need to be able to climb, jump, and swim to some degree. Sure magic can supplement all of this, but magic has duration and limitation that sheer strength does not.

In my opinion though, Charisma is the most important stat. Why kill something when I can talk it into being my friend (or at least backing down)?

[Amotis]

Weapon Finesse is a bit counterproductive, no? It seems that way, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[krossbow]

Wizards of the coast is on crack. Strength isn't nearly waht they rate it.


Generally, most stats are equal (with charisma possibly lower, due to most classes being able to dump it far too easily).

[mikeejimbo]

Weapon Finesse is a bit counterproductive, no? It seems that way, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I see what you mean, because it only adds to your chance to hit. In that case, it seems more useful when hitting is more important than doing damage. (Such as taking Weapon Finesse: Ray)

[Suzaku]

I see what you mean, because it only adds to your chance to hit. In that case, it seems more useful when hitting is more important than doing damage. (Such as taking Weapon Finesse: Ray)

Did you mean weapon focus ray?

[Amotis]

I see what you mean, because it only adds to your chance to hit. In that case, it seems more useful when hitting is more important than doing damage. (Such as taking Weapon Finesse: Ray)

Or when you have no control of the dmg anyway, aka the same example you gave. I think he ment touch attack?

I think STR is treated a very good because it fits the nitch of any good fighter. Dex based fighters are usually behind because they're fighting a double score war for two things. Str fighters are killing two birds with one stone. Even with tumble and other good dex skills mixed in I still don't see the worth. Weap Finesse is limited to only a few weapons and only a handful are worth using. Str fighters, however, can only go up and up into more exotic more bigger weapons.

[mikeejimbo]

Did you mean weapon focus ray?

Dear Lord, yes, sorry. I was just reading the Weapon Focus description and then talking about Weapon Finesse and it's late at night.

[Mike_G]

Weapon Finesse is a bit counterproductive, no? It seems that way, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't see why it would be.

If you have a much higher Dex than Strength, it makes perfect sense. It's very useful for a rogue or swashbuckling type. It can apply to touch spells, so if you do that kind of thing, and have a higher dex than strength, (and what caster doesn't) it's worth it.

Rogues and mages need every plus to hit they can get, and usually don't rely on strength for damage, so it's a perfectly good feat.

[Amotis]

I don't see why it would be.

If you have a much higher Dex than Strength, it makes perfect sense. It's very useful for a rogue or swashbuckling type. It can apply to touch spells, so if you do that kind of thing, and have a higher dex than strength, (and what caster doesn't) it's worth it.

Rogues and mages need every plus to hit they can get, and usually don't rely on strength for damage, so it's a perfectly good feat.

But if we're talking about why STR is so good, if it is at all, then weapon finesse would be a reason why STR is not that good, and I would respond with that STR is good because weapon finesse can't match a straight STR build. That weap fin may be good for certain situation but that doesn't match DEX with STR.

[mikeejimbo]

what caster doesn't

Clerics. Heavy armor doesn't leave much in the way of Dex mods, and Clerics are known to hold their own in melee.

[Machete]

Agile Athlete + Weapon Finesse = Strength only applies to carrying and damage now

Strength isn't what it used to be.

[Hamster_Ninja]

Weapon finesse is good when you have a lot of key abilities on dex (such as AC since your wearing light armor or reflex saves) and most of your damage is coming from somewhere else. It saves you from some mad (like rogues, nearly all of their damage is coming from the sneak attack anywaysand boosting dex is going to be more beneficial than an increased carrying capacity and a few more damage.

[Indoril]

But if we're talking about why STR is so good, if it is at all, then weapon finesse would be a reason why STR is not that good, and I would respond with that STR is good because weapon finesse can't match a straight STR build. That weap fin may be good for certain situation but that doesn't match DEX with STR.

But Dex gives you AC, Initiative bonuses, bonuses to more and more important skills than Str, and a higher ranged attack bonus (and as you've said melee if Weapon Finesse is taken).

Looks like Dex is actually better than Str, judging by all of that.

[Amotis]

But Dex gives you AC, Initiative bonuses, bonuses to more and more important skills than Str, and a higher ranged attack bonus (and as you've said melee if Weapon Finesse is taken).

Looks like Dex is actually better than Str, judging by all of that.

But if we place importance on things I think damage, which dex doesn't add in to at all, is really near the top.

[TheOOB]

I'm sorry, but considering how hard ability enhancements are to get, STR isn't all that awesome. Even with a 2H weapon it's only +1 to hit and +1.5 to damage every 2 STR. It's not that huge of a bonus, especially since spellcasters and finesse fighters don't even need the stat except for carrying and capacity. A Half-Orc would still be a little weak if they just had -2 Charisma to offset their +2 Strength bonus, and CHA is the most worthless stat.

[Indoril]

But if we place importance on things I think damage, which dex doesn't add in to at all, is really near the top.

Damage is nothing if you can't get in a hit first or if you're getting hit too much. Then someone with a bow and say, rapid shot or multishot and a high dex could do a great deal of damage in a round and stay out of melee range even.

[krossbow]

Dude, I've never had a character who DIDN'T have strength as a dump stat.

[Indoril]

...and CHA is the most worthless stat.

Cha isn't the "most worthless stat." Many people just don't know how to use it right or simply choose to use something more combat oriented as opposed to roleplay oriented.

[Dhavaer]

Cha isn't the "most worthless stat." Many people just don't know how to use it right or simply choose to use something more combat oriented as opposed to roleplay oriented.

*chokes*

Charisma is good for character interaction, an entirely seperate beast from roleplaying.

[TheOOB]

Charisma is the most worthless stat from a mechanical standpoint, unless you are a class with CHA based abilities cha only does one thing, increase skills. Now keeping in mind that it doesn't even increase as many skills as say INT, and that the ability bonus to skill checks becomes less and less important as you gain levels, it is fair to say that charisma is the most useless skill.

Every other skill has some other direct benefit it gives to your character.

Also, like Dhavaer said, CHA is useful for playing a socially skilled character, it has nothing to do with roleplay.

Besides, playing a D&D character who isn't "combat oriented" is like playing a pacifist socialist state in RISK, it doesn't work. D&D is all about the combat, and if your not basing your character around combat, you are playing the wrong system.

[Zincorium]

Cha isn't the "most worthless stat." Many people just don't know how to use it right or simply choose to use something more combat oriented as opposed to roleplay oriented.

It is for most characters a worthless stat from the standpoint of character survival. And I find roleplaying a low charisma character to be a blast, especially when I'm allowed to enrage the NPCs. The fact that I couldn't succeed on a diplomacy check to save my life with several of my characters (not all, by any means) doesn't make a character 'bad' for roleplaying. If you rely on rolling dice to determine all social actions, that ain't roleplaying any more than using power attack is.

[Suzaku]

Charisma is the most worthless stat from a mechanical standpoint, unless you are a class with CHA based abilities cha only does one thing, increase skills. Now keeping in mind that it doesn't even increase as many skills as say INT, and that the ability bonus to skill checks becomes less and less important as you gain levels, it is fair to say that charisma is the most useless skill.

Every other skill has some other direct benefit it gives to your character.

Also, like Dhavaer said, CHA is useful for playing a socially skilled character, it has nothing to do with roleplay.

Besides, playing a D&D character who isn't "combat oriented" is like playing a pacifist socialist state in RISK, it doesn't work. D&D is all about the combat, and if your not basing your character around combat, you are playing the wrong system.

Yes because in D&D it is always discourage to disguise yourself and bluff people to gain access to places that normally will never happen. Hell even using diplomacy to ask the king for some sort favors or more loot is out of the question because it's not part of the spirit of the game.

[krossbow]

Eh; sometimes the DM just is pissy and hates letting you do incredibly outrageous things (Give me free things! -eloquently- Surrender!).



Now, combat panache is good for it though.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Best character I ever had had an STR of 2. She had a CON of 28, but still. STR is over rated. =_)

[Lord_Kimboat]

Yes because in D&D it is always discourage to disguise yourself and bluff people to gain access to places that normally will never happen. Hell even using diplomacy to ask the king for some sort favors or more loot is out of the question because it's not part of the spirit of the game.

Granted, this does depend on your DM. When I DM, I'm quite happy for high Cha players to make diplomacy checks to stop fights before they happen or use disguise + bluff to sneak past, etc. I've even had the occasional fighter type complain that they haven't had a 'decent' fight during a game. However, at this point one or two of the cha types usually say that they've usually had to sit around while the fighters bash heads so this 'turnabout' is fair play.

[mikeejimbo]

Best character I ever had had an STR of 2. She had a CON of 28, but still. STR is over rated. =_)

Ooh, what class?

[Lord_Kimboat]

In order to adventure you need to be able to climb, jump, and swim to some degree. Sure magic can . . .

I'm not sure about this. I can count on one hand the number of times my 11th level ranger has had to use these three skills. Although, recently (last level) I bought boots of levitation which gets rid of the need for all of these checks.