Would like to have a dialogue with people in favor of monster rights.

[Uryse]

My campaign setting is a modern setting in which humans have recently learned that they are not alone in the world. The players are adventurers who often hunt and kill monsters in the course of saving people.

I want to see a political advocate group form to protect the rights of monsters. This isn't something that I would agree with, nor, I think.

I intend to make this new group antagonistic towards the heroes but I don't want a group of silly hippy-buffoon stereotypes so I was thinking that I could bat this around with some people who would favor that sort of thing more.

If you ever found yourself arguing against V's right to zap either of those black dragons, you're someone that I'd like to hear from.

For starters, vampires.

I saw some of this on a show on HBO, True Blood, but I'd love people's thoughts on why they would want to defend blood-sucking fiends from beyond the grave.

I may prod or question your logic but I will try to keep an open mind and remain respectful of opposing views.

[Rhynn]

Basic ethics is the first thing: if a sapient creature has never actually done any "wrong" (e.g. killed another sapient being), then what right do you have to kill them? You'd have to show, case-by-case, that you're acting either to protect or to avenge other sapients.

So, has this particular vampire actually ever killed anyone? Has it sucked blood out of anyone against their will? Can you show a real likelihood that it will in the future?

This is, obviously, complicated if vampires are just plain evil by nature (D&D, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc.), rather than by statistics.

[Coidzor]

I know in the Ponythread there were people arguing in defense of vampires and changeling's moral right to exist despite preying solely upon sophont life, though, frankly, I'm not quite sure how you'd have people who weren't buffoons/thralls/using monsters in their illicit conspiracies who would be in favor of not killing monsters that are maiming and killing people.

[Grinner]

For starters, vampires.

I saw some of this on a show on HBO, True Blood, but I'd love people's thoughts on why they would want to defend blood-sucking fiends from beyond the grave.

I may prod or question your logic but I will try to keep an open mind and remain respectful of opposing views.

Basic questions: How much blood do they need? Do they take just a sip? Or do they splay their victim's throat open like a hot jelly doughnut? Can they take animal blood? Is there social infrastructure in place to ensure every vampire receives his allotment? Or are they forced into begging or violence, like some kind of addict?

[LibraryOgre]

You might take a look at the Buffy, Season 8 volume "Predator and Prey", which has a large section about the backlash against Vampire Slayers, including Harmony getting a reality TV show. A lot of the arguments that group might make are in that volume... things like "vampires are afflicted individuals" (i.e. they didn't ask to become vampires, normally, so discriminating against them because you say they don't have a soul is morally wrong) are pretty big.

[Lord Torath]

Shadowrun might be a good place to look. There are the meta-humans (elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls, and their variants), and then there are things like Ghouls and Vampires. Ghouls must feed on human flesh, but it doesn't need to be fresh, or killed by them. And they've been fighting for legal status (ie citizenship). I'm not certain where Vampires fit in; I think they might exist only in the shadows (and, of course, they require feeding off of living humans).

And, of course, then you have groups like Humanis, which are rabidly anti-metahumans and magic users, and even more anti para-animals (vampires, ghouls, and similar, plus things like dragons).

[Uryse]

Wow, good ideas all around.

Okay, more details about vampires. Vampires probably don't need to kill to survive. Each one only needs about a pint or so of living blood (not from a corpse or a transfusion bag) every few days. They are strongly inclined to take more though.

Each vampire tends to have between 6 and 12 vampire spawn serving them.

One of the themes of this setting is to address the alien nature of non-human creatures. Vampires aren't humans with superpowers who happen to drink blood.

They view humans the way we view cheeseburgers. Not the cows that become cheeseburgers, mind you. I am okay with the fact that a cow died to make my double-whopper but I at least want the cow to be reasonably well treated while alive and killed as painlessly as possible.

In short, I don't want to be a jerk about it.

Vampires not only don't tend to have such impulses, in my setting, they are incapable of such impulses. Call it a lack of soul or just an altered brain chemistry.

That is the reality of what we're dealing with. Vampires, however, are not above manipulating perception in their favor. That will be the rub.

[The Oni]

Depending on your angle and the particular monsters to which you refer, I could see this going perhaps the way of Team Plasma from Pokemon Black/White. They make pretty good points, which are supported quite strongly by the fact that, while animalistic, many Pokemon exhibit greater-than-human intelligence and some can even hold intelligible conversations. This would hold true for many Magical Beasts that are generally considered evil or otherwise hunted.

From another perspective, if you're referring to more obviously humanlike monsters like Lamia or vampires you could make many of the same arguments that people make for disenfranchised groups IRL, although with practical concerns as well rather changing the direction of those arguments.

As an example: in a campaign setting I wrote,

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Elves suffer from an affliction wherein, when they are deprived of sunlight for long periods, they turn furry, predatory, and lacking in empathy - a condition that is by all appearances irreversible - though they retain their intelligence and ubiquitous Elven arrogance. These creatures are called Hulder, and fancy themselves "the pinnacle of elven evolution" - all other creatures are utterly beneath them, and as the greatest, it is their duty to dominate the entire continent and slay anything that gets in their way (dark-elf social darwinism ho)

Complicating matters - most of the Elves have already turned Hulder. This basically means the Elves are screwed going both ways - humans see them as sociopathic killers waiting to happen, while Hulder figure they're just not good/pure enough to achieve Hulderism - and so they're mostly outcasts.

Regarding the activism:

There's a radical school of thought going on that holds that Elves should try and breed with humans as much as possible - the premise being that Half-Elves can't turn, and thus the eradication of the pure Elven species will save their hybrid descendants from corruption. The Unfortunate Implications there are entirely intentional.

Obviously, countless spellcasterly and scholarly types have searched for a cure for the condition, but to no avail. Magical light therapy and the traditional wolfsbane-type cures have all been played out, with no meaningful results. Most Hulder don't really want to be cured, either, as they don't see anything wrong with their condition at all.

So mostly, you end up with a lot of eccentric Chaotic Good academics searching for cures and potential treatments, and trying to keep other nations from going to outright war with the Hulder, while desperately trying to understand and simultaneously explain the nature of the affliction to ignorant mundanes who couldn't possibly grasp the magnitude of what it would mean to genocide an entire race based on this! and before you know it they're contemplating sabotage for the greater good...

So that might give you a good starting point for the who and the why of your Vampire Rights Activists Gone Rogue.

[Uryse]

I like the Season 8 of Buffy idea. I had read about it but had forgotten.

[erikun]

I've occasionally batted around the idea of a druid in support of "elemental" rights. That is, as elementals are creatures of another plane, and sometimes intelligent, then forcing them to remain in the world either trapped or binded is cruel and should be stopped. This includes destroying golems and magical items that hold elementals inside them. It requires some knowledge of how the planes work, and isn't something I've ever played - primarily because being the guy who destroys cool stuff isn't fun in most groups.

Any sort of undead-focused necromancer would be a canidate for undead rights. Anything from the sympathetic crazy Tsukiko to the Nurell worshipper should work just fine.

[Uryse]

That is something I hadn't thought of.

Its not the same thing but I may have to have a PETA like group of druids protesting familiars and animal friends.

[Coidzor]

Each vampire tends to have between 6 and 12 vampire spawn serving them.

So each of them is a confirmed and unrepentant murderer with multiple homicides if those vampire spawn were human at one point. Otherwise, what are vampire spawn if not vampires themselves?

One of the themes of this setting is to address the alien nature of non-human creatures. Vampires aren't humans with superpowers who happen to drink blood.

Ok, where do they come from then if they're not converted humans? Are they a separate species? Corpses inhabited by entirely different entities from that of the meat popsicle?

They view humans the way we view cheeseburgers. Not the cows that become cheeseburgers, mind you. I am okay with the fact that a cow died to make my double-whopper but I at least want the cow to be reasonably well treated while alive and killed as painlessly as possible.

In short, I don't want to be a jerk about it.

You just said that they're jerks and then you don't want to be a jerk about it? They don't even view humans as living beings, solely as food.

Depending on your angle and the particular monsters to which you refer, I could see this going perhaps the way of Team Plasma from Pokemon Black/White. They make pretty good points, which are supported quite strongly by the fact that, while animalistic, many Pokemon exhibit greater-than-human intelligence and some can even hold intelligible conversations. This would hold true for many Magical Beasts that are generally considered evil or otherwise hunted.

From another perspective, if you're referring to more obviously humanlike monsters like Lamia or vampires you could make many of the same arguments that people make for disenfranchised groups IRL, although with practical concerns as well rather changing the direction of those arguments.

As an example: in a campaign setting I wrote,

Spoiler

Show

Elves suffer from an affliction wherein, when they are deprived of sunlight for long periods, they turn furry, predatory, and lacking in empathy - a condition that is by all appearances irreversible - though they retain their intelligence and ubiquitous Elven arrogance. These creatures are called Hulder, and fancy themselves "the pinnacle of elven evolution" - all other creatures are utterly beneath them, and as the greatest, it is their duty to dominate the entire continent and slay anything that gets in their way (dark-elf social darwinism ho)

Complicating matters - most of the Elves have already turned Hulder. This basically means the Elves are screwed going both ways - humans see them as sociopathic killers waiting to happen, while Hulder figure they're just not good/pure enough to achieve Hulderism - and so they're mostly outcasts.

Regarding the activism:

There's a radical school of thought going on that holds that Elves should try and breed with humans as much as possible - the premise being that Half-Elves can't turn, and thus the eradication of the pure Elven species will save their hybrid descendants from corruption. The Unfortunate Implications there are entirely intentional.

Obviously, countless spellcasterly and scholarly types have searched for a cure for the condition, but to no avail. Magical light therapy and the traditional wolfsbane-type cures have all been played out, with no meaningful results. Most Hulder don't really want to be cured, either, as they don't see anything wrong with their condition at all.

So mostly, you end up with a lot of eccentric Chaotic Good academics searching for cures and potential treatments, and trying to keep other nations from going to outright war with the Hulder, while desperately trying to understand and simultaneously explain the nature of the affliction to ignorant mundanes who couldn't possibly grasp the magnitude of what it would mean to genocide an entire race based on this! and before you know it they're contemplating sabotage for the greater good...

So that might give you a good starting point for the who and the why of your Vampire Rights Activists Gone Rogue.

The real question is how on earth is anyone near them not at war with the Hulder right now, seeing as the Hulder are crazy-murderous bastards that are driven to slay everything that isn't an Elf, since Elves they want to kidnap and force to become more Hulder.

[Uryse]

Ok, where do they come from then if they're not converted humans? Are they a separate species? Corpses inhabited by entirely different entities from that of the meat popsicle?

You just said that they're jerks and then you don't want to be a jerk about it? They don't even view humans as living beings, solely as food.

I'm sorry. I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. Vampires are converted from humans. There is no separate entity. Just an infected corpse with an animated brain. I was just saying that their perspective is now entirely inhuman. That there is no humanity remaining in them.

When I said I didn't want to be a jerk, I was speaking about how I would want a living cow treated to sort of illustrate the difference between human and vampire.

Vampires are total jerks about it. They feel about ripping up a person the way you or I would feel about shredding a head of lettuce.

Sorry about that.

[Coidzor]

I'm sorry. I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. Vampires are converted from humans. There is no separate entity. Just an infected corpse with an animated brain. I was just saying that their perspective is now entirely inhuman. That there is no humanity remaining in them.

When I said I didn't want to be a jerk, I was speaking about how I would want a living cow treated to sort of illustrate the difference between human and vampire.

Vampires are total jerks about it. They feel about ripping up a person the way you or I would feel about shredding a head of lettuce.

Sorry about that.

In that case then, it hinges upon them being able to successfully hide the fact that they're unrepentant murderers and deceive people that they actually regard people as people, which doesn't seem very likely given that they see people as solely food and not even animals.

Can humans even cause them harm?

[Uryse]

In that case then, it hinges upon them being able to successfully hide the fact that they're unrepentant murderers and deceive people that they actually regard people as people, which doesn't seem very likely given that they see people as solely food and not even animals.

Can humans even cause them harm?

Oh yeah, humans can harm them. Everything I am describing is happening in a game governed by a hybrid Pathfinder / D20 Modern system.

Plus, (the reason vampires would bother with deception) humans outnumber them by a ratio of around thousands to one.

[Fable Wright]

I'm one of those people who would join the monster advocate groups. When I see decidedly inhuman monsters (e.g. the giant spiders from the Desolation of Smaug) I tend to root for them, or at least hope they can get away from the 'heroes' before they're butchered. Less so for humans with superpowers and a personality quirk as a side effect. Why? Primarily because of their decidedly inhuman nature: they're nothing like us. At all.

In the case of the spiders, they're beautiful, giant creatures capable of intelligence and communication that have distinctly different values and culture than our own. Sure, they eat people who enter their territory and spread like a plague upon Mirkwood seeking to devour every living being inside it in their insatiable hunger, but that's something we can work around. They can think. We can make them understand the basics of our culture (e.g. if you or your kin go beyond this borderpost and/or eat humans, we will extirpate your nest and try this again with the next spiders to come here until one of you gets it) and then get into mutually beneficial agreements with them. Offer them hunting grounds and teach them to herd cattle to sustain their populations, for example, in exchange for their silks or assisted passage through the forest.

For more parasitic monsters, like vampires, there's a bit more of a problem. The system shouldn't be constructed so that it's vampires taking advantage of humans. They're sentient people, so they can, eventually, become assimilated into human culture. The problem is, they can spread like a plague, accidentally kill people just by feeding, and their 'spawn' are the enslaved husks of murdered humans that they can make at will. Every effort should be made to let them live lives as normal as possible, but this would require some serious concessions from their side. For one, they're not allowed to keep thralls in their service. It would just encourage them to make more. For another, blood taken would have to be regulated and feeding habits curtailed. They can set up booths in a localized area to pay people for blood. Take too much blood, pay too little, treat the cheeseburgers like cheeseburgers, you're not going to find too many volunteers. Ideally, this is going to lead some, if not most, vampires to pay their donors in iron-rich food and other ingredients to make their donors healthier and lead to a symbiotic relationship. In reality, the vampire is probably going to try to manipulate the donor, coerce people into unhealthy relationships for the sake of the vampire, drain humans just enough that they can't work and have to rely on the vampire to get funding, and so on. It's regrettable, and the system should try to catch this. We're not killing them because they're sentient beings, and give to our collective culture. We're not letting them exercise their inalienable rights to be our lords and masters, though, as we're sentient beings too.

TL;DR: Hardline approach to monster relations in the hopes of developing mutually beneficial agreements with them in the future.

[The Oni]

The real question is how on earth is anyone near them not at war with the Hulder right now, seeing as the Hulder are crazy-murderous bastards that are driven to slay everything that isn't an Elf, since Elves they want to kidnap and force to become more Hulder.

Well, it's mostly because

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they're sociopaths, not idiots. At the moment the situation is largely akin to Nazi Germany, pre-WWII. The Hulder want to take their rightful lebensraum (which in their opinion is everything under the sun) but they're doing it gradually and the other nations figure if they let them take just a little bit of backwater territory, they can avoid outright total war.

Also it's important to make the distinction that they don't necessarily *want* to kill other sentient races. It's just that if the other races aren't strong enough to defend their stuff, they didn't deserve to have it in the first place. If they'd kindly just get out of the way and let the Hulder take it, the Hulder would be cool with that too; otherwise, the Hulder will happily stab them in the face.

[Slipperychicken]

I always thought vampire-advocacy stories (and mutants, superheroes, and similar things) were just metaphors for real-life prejudice. One could surely take real-life minority groups (such as jews, homosexuals, autistics, etc.) as inspiration, as these stories often do.


Vampires are easy: they retain their past memories, often retain a human appearance, the families and relatives of vampires would surely be hesitant to turn on their kin (as vampires are often made, not born), and they are in some fictions able to survive without murdering people. A community truly rife with vampirism may come to accept them as people, and a trusted community leader who turns out to be a vampire may be accepted rather than reviled.

[Uryse]

TL;DR: Hardline approach to monster relations in the hopes of developing mutually beneficial agreements with them in the future.

Interesting and I may use that approach for the leader of this group though I see the main group being a little too pro-monster / anti-violence to take a very hard line.

The only problem is I don't think that this approach would work. Vampires, at least of this type, are essentially sociopaths. Arguing for mutual benefits with a sociopath, or just someone who is incapable of setting any value on your wants or needs seems ultimately self-defeating. They will take you for all they can get and screw you over ASAP.

That does work for me, story-wise though. It does, however, beg the question, how often do the vampires screw with you before you toss in the towel? Again, I don't want the advocates to seem hopelessly dense.

[Uryse]

I always thought vampire-advocacy stories (and mutants, superheroes, and similar things) were just metaphors for real-life prejudice. One could surely take real-life minority groups (such as jews, homosexuals, autistics, etc.) as inspiration, as these stories often do.

There is truth in that. These stories are often metaphors for such things. I am sort of using that against my players, if I can pull it off.

For me, the fun of this is making them wonder if they have misjudged the monsters by playing on modern day values that we put aside while playing and then kind of slapping them on the knuckles and saying, nope, that isn't a gay guy or a different ethnicity... its a shark that you've been trying to make friends with.

[Coidzor]

Well, it's mostly because

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they're sociopaths, not idiots. At the moment the situation is largely akin to Nazi Germany, pre-WWII. The Hulder want to take their rightful lebensraum (which in their opinion is everything under the sun) but they're doing it gradually and the other nations figure if they let them take just a little bit of backwater territory, they can avoid outright total war.

Also it's important to make the distinction that they don't necessarily *want* to kill other sentient races. It's just that if the other races aren't strong enough to defend their stuff, they didn't deserve to have it in the first place. If they'd kindly just get out of the way and let the Hulder take it, the Hulder would be cool with that too; otherwise, the Hulder will happily stab them in the face.

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That doesn't make any sense, seeing as how they believe everything belongs to them, this would leave no room for non-Hulder to "get out of their way," so the natural result would be the same, total omnicide.

So it's kind of hard to believe that with all of the people working to try to cure them that no one knows about their ultimate designs for all life on the planet.

[Fable Wright]

Interesting and I may use that approach for the leader of this group though I see the main group being a little too pro-monster / anti-violence to take a very hard line.

The only problem is I don't think that this approach would work. Vampires, at least of this type, are essentially sociopaths. Arguing for mutual benefits with a sociopath, or just someone who is incapable of setting any value on your wants or needs seems ultimately self-defeating. They will take you for all they can get and screw you over ASAP.

That does work for me, story-wise though. It does, however, beg the question, how often do the vampires screw with you before you toss in the towel? Again, I don't want the advocates to seem hopelessly dense.

I'm not saying that it would work well. As I mentioned, the ultimate goal of a symbiotic relationship is very idealistic. The reality is threatening the vampires with a big stick to stay in line and follow our rules and trying to make what benefits them benefit the community. The system of having them pay people for their blood ideally works out (in the minds of the organization) as vampires paying welfare support for people who can't work and providing some healthcare (as they want healthy, repeat customers) along the way. The vampire get self-preservation and farm-raised organic cheeseburgers in return. In reality, the vampires try to get people hooked on addictive substances and habits, keep people desperate for money, and tilt the economy to get more people willing to sell blood, while the organization hunts down vampires who do this to get them to realize that doing such things doesn't work out well in the long term. You can't feed if you're staked in your coffin, after all.

As for throwing in the towel? Again, you probably kill vampires who openly try to get people addicted to substances or coerce people, who kill someone they feed on, and whose repeat customers look like they're on death's door at the end of the month. Either remaining vampires quickly get the message or you soon are rid of a vampire infestation.

Finally, with the group being too pro-monster to play very hard lines: That's when a group of adventurers find a mysterious person in a concealing black robe in an inn offering sums of money for (potentially specific) monster's heads with a sob story of what they're doing to the community.

[The Oni]

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That doesn't make any sense, seeing as how they believe everything belongs to them, this would leave no room for non-Hulder to "get out of their way," so the natural result would be the same, total omnicide.

So it's kind of hard to believe that with all of the people working to try to cure them that no one knows about their ultimate designs for all life on the planet.

Oh, no, you've got it right.

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When they say "get out of the way" they mean "get off our continent," which is impossible logistically, but the Hulder are OK with that line of thinking. They don't care where the other races are, as long as they're not *here*, taking up their space and breathing their air. They may at some point decide to expand their efforts to the entire world, but one thing at a time, naturally.

Before they were Hulder, they were Elves, and as Elves they had friends and allies who knew that they, while a bit condescending, weren't monsters. In the same way that some settings offer a cure for lycanthropy and vampirism, they search for a cure for Hulderism - they just haven't found one yet.

Barring a radical change in philosophy, it's not expected that there will be any treaties or surrender - so the soldiers wall up along the border of the major territories and hope it doesn't come to full-scale war.

[Bhu]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.ph...sg4421#msg4421

Introduce them to MADD

[Saidoro]

One of the main points to hit is that fighting monsters because they're currently hurting people, or are actively planning to hurt people or to get "justice" for people they've hurt in the past is an entirely different beast from fighting monsters because they are monsters. If something is killing people that's a problem which needs to be dealt with in one way or another, just like we deal with dangerous animals or criminals or diseases. If, on the other hand, the monster just sets up shop in town and starts exchanging goods and services with the townsfolk and spends a bit of extra money to supply whatever their extra needs are they're no worse and no more deserving of death than anyone else doing the same. If the monsters are rational actors it should be possible to find ways of dealing with them without killing them, it's just a matter of good system design.

[Beleriphon]

I'm sorry. I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. Vampires are converted from humans. There is no separate entity. Just an infected corpse with an animated brain. I was just saying that their perspective is now entirely inhuman. That there is no humanity remaining in them.

So its a mobile corpse? An intelligent mobile corpse that retains the memories of the previously living person?

At that point they aren't that different then a zombie.

When I said I didn't want to be a jerk, I was speaking about how I would want a living cow treated to sort of illustrate the difference between human and vampire.

Vampires are total jerks about it. They feel about ripping up a person the way you or I would feel about shredding a head of lettuce.

Sorry about that.

Ah, so vampires are treated as the ultimate apex predatory. A creature that requires hunting humans, but at the same time has the intelligence and ability to not kill its prey to survive but doesn't care enough about the prey to bother.

I think vampires are a poor choice to focus on for a monster rights campaign. I'd take something more akin to orcs, goblins or orgres. That way you can at least argue that they are 1) too stupid to know better so we need to educate them or 2) they are culturally inclined to being naughty so we need to educate them.

The other thing you really need to think about is what type of setting you have. Is it a more medieval setting or something later? Because in something more middle to late medieval then rights are a bit of an alien concept to most people, let alone something that isn't people.

[Thinker]

In addition to your main advocacy group, make a group that reveres the vampires. They see the vampires as the next step in humanity and want to be like them. They advocate for greater deference to vampire behavior and perhaps even believe that vampires have some secret that they are willing to share if humans play nice with them.

Another group may make the case that vampires are a new species and need to be studied. They advocate for controlled environments for vampires where they can be studied, but not harmed. They may cooperate with the vampires to some extent in an effort to understand them.

[andresrhoodie]

You've created yourself a pickle.

You dont want your pro-vampire group to be stereotypical hippy morons.

While at the same time made your vampires an absolute irredeemable evil and a dangerous predator that adds nothing to human society.

One thing has to give. I'm sorry but the only people who would rights for your vampires are morons.

Or people who want to appease the vampires in hopes of being turned into vamps themselves. Which is one tack to take.

[BeerMug Paladin]

The only vampires that would be worth advocacy, from what I see you saying, would be the weak/cowardly vampires who see an advantage to following the rules of society and working together with others. There's a lot of reasons they might. To get a stable food supply, to do something they love (does a vampire love to perform for an audience? Do they love to build or paint?)

I don't see how one could make a pro-vampire-rights movement if what you've said is common knowledge, especially if vampires are universally evil in alignment (this is how I interpret your statement about them being universally a sociopath).

Sociopathy is a real trait people have, though, and we don't lock people up for it alone. We simply treat them the same as anyone else for harmful/damaging activity.

The only reason for 'vampire advocacy' I can think of would be the same reason a society wouldn't just allow someone with the detect evil spell to run around slaying anyone and anything that meet the criteria.

It wouldn't be so much a vampire advocacy group, as a general group against the slaying of evil beings, just for its own sake. Vampires would just be a small caveat of its overall mission (and in fact, such a group could still be divided on either side with respect to this issue).

[andresrhoodie]

Sociopathy is a real trait people have, though, and we don't lock people up for it alone. We simply treat them the same as anyone else for harmful/damaging activity.

The only reason for 'vampire advocacy' I can think of would be the same reason a society wouldn't just allow someone with the detect evil spell to run around slaying anyone and anything that meet the criteria.

It wouldn't be so much a vampire advocacy group, as a general group against the slaying of evil beings, just for its own sake. Vampires would just be a small caveat of its overall mission (and in fact, such a group could still be divided on either side with respect to this issue).

I suspect if real life sociapaths were bullet proof and had magical powers including mind control and mass creating more sociopaths from their victims you would see governments being a lot more pro-active about them