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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Wouldn't the more interesting question at this stage be: How would you create the fellowship using D&D 3.5 rules?

    Aragorn: Dunedain ranger (Ranger//Paladin gestalt class)
    Legolas: Elf ranger, archery track
    Gimli: Dwarf fighter
    Boromir: Human knight (with Diehard feat)
    Merry: Halfling fighter/knight (?)
    Pippin: Halfling fighter/knight (?)
    Sam: Halfling scout
    Frodo: Halfling aristocrat/scout

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    No, the orcs will see that the heroes killed a quarter of them in the opening round and then book it. They're not stupid; without any compelling reason (like a soon to be dead uruk-hai commander that a clever PC would kill first) they're not going to rush into certain death.
    Actually the Uruk Hai have never retreated in the course of the books, not once, they're professional soldiers, and professional soldiers don't cut and run, not if there's a good chance of victory. And there would be a good chance of victory with odds of 100 to 3, also the Uruk-Hai are most decidedly not just standard Orcs they are clearly dramatically superior, as such they are higher than 1/2 CR, of course provided that you can model the orcs in LoTR with standard orcs, which as we've shown, you can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    They definitely don't have infinite morale as evidenced by their conversation about Sam near Shelob's lair.
    Those are standard Orcs, the Uruk-Hai generally are much more disciplined than the the standard Orcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendol View Post
    Wouldn't the more interesting question at this stage be: How would you create the fellowship using D&D 3.5 rules?

    Aragorn: Dunedain ranger (Ranger//Paladin gestalt class)
    Legolas: Elf ranger, archery track
    Gimli: Dwarf fighter
    Boromir: Human knight (with Diehard feat)
    Merry: Halfling fighter/knight (?)
    Pippin: Halfling fighter/knight (?)
    Sam: Halfling scout
    Frodo: Halfling aristocrat/scout
    Actually Ranger is a terrible class for Aragorn, he'd have to have given up both spell casting and his animal companion. Most of his shown abilities are leadership related, I think a Warblade with a focus in White Raven stuff would be probably a good model for him, much closer to his demonstrated stuff, if you were trying to build him. I would make Boromir a Frenzied Berserker or some such, he certainly was able to take what is described as an incredible amount of damage without falling, so he probably only fell when his Frenzy ended, he's also shown to be brash and have a temper, so that could be a good model for him. Sam is clearly not a Scout, and there's at least a few scenes where he shows himself to be a fighter (particularly the scenes in the Tower after the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, and the Scouring of the Shire) I would give him starting levels in Expert, and then later on give him some levels in a martial class. I would also make Merry and Pippin distinct since they were in different cultures, I would argue that the Rohirrim were not lawful and therefore a knight would be less of a good representation of Merry who also violated the rules on multiple occasions, such as riding into battle when he was told not to, so that could work well for him.

    I actually agree with Aristocrat for Frodo, Legolas and Gimli could be modeled as you suggest, although I would make Gimli a crusader, if we make Aragorn a Warblade.

    Again this is a fairly arbitrary model based on my recollection and level could be decided pretty arbitrarily.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2014-01-08 at 05:25 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    I feel that the discussion would proceed more smoothly if all involved steered clear of saying that this or that or the other point currently under dispute was "clearly" one thing or another, especially without providing any other argument. Similarly for skipping ahead and saying that something has been "shown" when there are still posters that disagree with that showing.
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    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    I feel that the discussion would proceed more smoothly if all involved steered clear of saying that this or that or the other point currently under dispute was "clearly" one thing or another, especially without providing any other argument. Similarly for skipping ahead and saying that something has been "shown" when there are still posters that disagree with that showing.
    Are you making the assertion that the Orcs were the same in D&D as they are in LoTR, when there are pretty clearly more than cosmetic differences? We can't assume their CR which is the point of that statement, any more than we can assume the Balrogs' CR.

    Well to my mind Sam is best represented by a class that's not a scout, the only instances of him hiding or displaying survival talents were helped by magical items and not accomplished with mundane equipment.

    Edit (2): Naturally I'm not going to argue any stance that I don't agree with, and for me the stances I agree with are going to be "clearly" to me. I was bringing up the Orc point since it was kind of glossed over at best and then they were unable to produce a monster with the same characteristics without homebrew, as such it is clearly not the Orcs from 3.5, I believe that was pretty established as several people have noticed that the qualities were not the same.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2014-01-08 at 06:37 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Are you making the assertion that the Orcs were the same in D&D as they are in LoTR, when there are pretty clearly more than cosmetic differences? We can't assume their CR which is the point of that statement, any more than we can assume the Balrogs' CR.

    Well to my mind Sam is best represented by a class that's not a scout, the only instances of him hiding or displaying survival talents were helped by magical items and not accomplished with mundane equipment.
    No. If I were making an argument on either of those subjects I would make it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    No. If I were making an argument on either of those subjects I would make it.
    Well then if you aren't making an argument, then why comment on my particular style of making an argument, this isn't a formal debate, and you aren't a debate moderator. I mean you have every right to comment on what you believe to be inappropriate debate style, but I don't feel that's contributing to the discussion, since again there's no rule that I'd be breaking and therefore it falls down into being a matter of personal debate style.
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Originally Posted by Bogardan_Mage
    You've been watching too many movies. Saruman did not create the Uruk-hai, they existed long before the events of LotR. Saruman just employed them during the War of the Ring.
    This is quite accurate; it was Sauron who first bred the Uruk-Hai. Saruman did, however, attempt to improve the breed, and may have been responsible for the creation of half-orcs.

    Originally Posted by Broken Crown
    I thought the issue of conflating Tolkien's characters with Jackson's had already been addressed in this thread.
    The Valar know I've tried, but people still insist on confusing the two. Especially people who aren't all that familiar with the original books.

    Originally Posted by AMFV
    ...professional soldiers don't cut and run, not if there's a good chance of victory.
    This has been demonstrated not to be the case in more battles across more eras than anyone could ever list.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2014-01-08 at 07:55 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    This has been demonstrated not to be the case in more battles across more eras than anyone could ever list.
    It's certainly not a general case, most battles do not include professional armies simply breaking ranks and running.Those battles are known as fiascos, it's an unusual situation.

    In any case even if the first few were cut down in a 100 to 3 battle they would like likely continue to fight.

    Edit: It's also extremely unlikely that with overwhelming odds on their side that they would cut and run. Since LoTR has a fairly realistic view on combat that isn't CR based that fight would clearly result in a loss.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2014-01-08 at 08:01 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #399
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Aren't T.orcs closer to goblins and Uruk-hai to hobgoblins than orcs? (Keyword: "closer")
    Last edited by Larkas; 2014-01-08 at 08:25 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkas View Post
    Aren't T.orcs closer to goblins and Uruk-hai to hobgoblins than orcs? (Keyword: "closer")
    Possibly, although Goblins are capable of feats of intelligence and engineering and stealth that don't really fit with Orcs in 3.5, there's not really a good fit for them. You might be able to argue closer, really you'd be better off creating your own race for it, if you want a really good model.

    But the point is that you can't base your predictive model with the CR of standard orcs, without conceding that there are other factors, they aren't exactly the same.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    This is quite accurate; it was Sauron who first bred the Uruk-Hai. Saruman did, however, attempt to improve the breed, and may have been responsible for the creation of half-orcs.
    Through entirely mundane means. Saruman doesn't have the power to create life any more than a dog breeder does.

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini476 View Post
    What? No. No no no no NO. Stop that.
    A commoner can take two hits on average, since the average of 2d3 is 3. They'll both just do nonlethal damage until the cows come home, however, since you need IUS to do lethal.
    Actually, expected value of 1D3 is 2. 1/3 * 1 + 1/3 * 2 + 3/3 = 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Statistics here is going to have to take a back seat to the way D&D has chosen to deal with fractions: you always round down. So a 1d3 that statistically averages 1.5, is rounded down to 1 damage per round.
    Wut?

    You aren't going to get any fractions from 1D3 or any dice. So the D&D ruling has no effect on calculating the average damage. Not to mention that the average isn't 1.5 but 2!
    Last edited by Jokunen; 2014-01-08 at 09:05 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #403
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Standard LotR orcs are probably better statted as D&D goblins, while Uruk-Hai are stronger and larger (almost man-size(!))

    Also, this was discussed at length not that long ago: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...php?p=16410123

    Ok for warblade//paladin gestalt regarding Aragon, but certainly not Boromir as a frenzied berserker. If anything he's a knight 20, sporting loyal beyond death!

    Legolas seems to have acquired the ranger spell hunter's mercy as an at-will SLA.

    Sam seems to be high survival skill, at least, and all hobbits have more or less functional HiPS.

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendol View Post
    Standard LotR orcs are probably better statted as D&D goblins, while Uruk-Hai are stronger and larger (almost man-size(!))

    Also, this was discussed at length not that long ago: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...php?p=16410123

    Ok for warblade//paladin gestalt regarding Aragon, but certainly not Boromir as a frenzied berserker. If anything he's a knight 20, sporting loyal beyond death!

    Legolas seems to have acquired the ranger spell hunter's mercy as an at-will SLA.

    Sam seems to be high survival skill, at least, and all hobbits have more or less functional HiPS.
    Well I would question his lawfulness, although it's definitely open to interpretation, either case would work, although I was trying for something that might not need epic level. I don't think Aragorn really would be well represented by a Paladin, since he doesn't have casting, can't detect evil, doesn't have a special mount, and as far as we can tell would be as effective at fighting neutral folk as the others might.
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  15. - Top - End - #405
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    That's correct, but on the other hand he does seem to be immune to fear, he does have some kind of aura of courage effect on his companions as well, or perhaps inspire courage variant? He has some kind of healing proficiency that is out of the ordinary. As for spells it's hard to tell since no magic in LotR has an easy D&D counterpart. I would model magic more like SLA's than vancian casting, possibly including rituals.

    Why isn't Boromir lawful? I don't see that at all. He probably has the flaw "Weak-willed"...

  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Thought I would circle back to the ur-text, the original Dragon Magazine article:

    http://kuoi.org/~kamikaze/RPG/gandalf.txt

    So how do we reconcile our intuition with the bare facts? Well, for one thing, as I hinted above, the universe of LOTR was magic-weak. It is easy to assume that it was run by " a very tough DM" who rewarded experience so slowly that it would take 2000 years for a pseudo-angel to get to the 5th level, and 6000 years or so for an EHP to reach 12th. But it is still unsettling. I would rather place the blame on the scale we are using: the D&D magic system. It seems a more likely thing for Gygax and Arneson to misjudge the spell levels. So what can we do? Change the spell system, the experience system or the levels of the spells, or all of the above? What is your response?

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Did someone do the figures for Bard in the hobbit?

    He clearly one shots a Dragon with a bow? What lvl and class can do that?

    Lets assume that Smaug is at least an ancient dragon (maybe even wyrm?)

    In the movie they add some fluff about larger bows and special arrows, in the book on the other hand Bard uses a normal bow and arrow (might be cool or improved weapons but not "High" magic - lets assume no more than +2?).

    OK he hits a special vulnerable spot - lets treat that as a critical hit and also one that passes any damage resistence and so on. Since the dragon was not aware of him sneak attack could also be a possibility.

    Now I don't know alot of D&D, but it seems to me Bard muist be above lvl 5....

    Lets assume it is a large bow for 2d6 damage +2 for magic bow? and +8 for very high str and lvl modifier, lvl five adds 3d6 sneak attack (if Bard is a Rogue) for a maximum of 40 damage with all 5 d rolling a 6! Critical is times 3 if I remember correct so at most 120 damage. Even at lvl 15 he could not one shot a dragon (can someone calculate WHEN he will be able to with insanely lucky rolls of all dices showing maximum?)

    I am not saying this to argue that Bard must be a certain lvl or that Aragorn must so as well (since he must be nearly as cool or more likely cooler than Bard). But that applying lvls to books makes no sense...

  18. - Top - End - #408
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    In MERP they have a crit table, one of the results is instant death.

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobtor View Post
    Did someone do the figures for Bard in the hobbit?

    He clearly one shots a Dragon with a bow? What lvl and class can do that?

    Lets assume that Smaug is at least an ancient dragon (maybe even wyrm?)

    In the movie they add some fluff about larger bows and special arrows, in the book on the other hand Bard uses a normal bow and arrow (might be cool or improved weapons but not "High" magic - lets assume no more than +2?).

    OK he hits a special vulnerable spot - lets treat that as a critical hit and also one that passes any damage resistence and so on. Since the dragon was not aware of him sneak attack could also be a possibility.

    Now I don't know alot of D&D, but it seems to me Bard muist be above lvl 5....

    Lets assume it is a large bow for 2d6 damage +2 for magic bow? and +8 for very high str and lvl modifier, lvl five adds 3d6 sneak attack (if Bard is a Rogue) for a maximum of 40 damage with all 5 d rolling a 6! Critical is times 3 if I remember correct so at most 120 damage. Even at lvl 15 he could not one shot a dragon (can someone calculate WHEN he will be able to with insanely lucky rolls of all dices showing maximum?)

    I am not saying this to argue that Bard must be a certain lvl or that Aragorn must so as well (since he must be nearly as cool or more likely cooler than Bard). But that applying lvls to books makes no sense...
    Actually, A guy here on giant made that build not too long ago. its a build based on ranger/rogue, and some finagling to get sneak attack up, uses maiming strike to change each 2d6 sneack attack damage to 1 cha damage. as cha damage it mults on crits. (I want to say he had 14d6 SA and turned it into 7 cha damage) from there you use hunters mercy to auto threat and you multishot blessed and cursed arrows to autocrit anything that isn't neutral.

    His example target was a gold dragon I believe. And he knocked it unconscious in a round with cha damage.
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  20. - Top - End - #410
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Saphir View Post
    Beorn might have to be whatever level in 3.5 to gain the abilities needed in a simple way, but that does not relate to the point I was trying to make. I'm sure one could come up with a very weak fictional character that would have to be quite high level to be properly represented, but all that means is that the classes and/or options available in 3.5 don't directly correspond to those used in whatever work of fiction we are considering. The point I was trying to make had little to do with specific abilities; I am more concerned with power levels.

    In short: a world in DnD where the highest level characters are around level 5 should (very) roughly correspond to the kind of world that Middle-Earth is. Aragorn can easily defeat a decent-sized group of normal soldiers, but cannot steamroll complete armies. In contrast, using the default level distribution, the average "master swordsman" in a large city in DnD is all but unstoppable for normal armies. The argument is, then, that you can very well make a setting where a metropolis doesn't have anyone over level 10, because settings like that exist in many fantasy novels.

    So ignoring LOTR for a short while, look at this piece of dialogue.
    A: I'm making a campaign world. Do you think it's reasonable if the weak old king is level 15? Or should he be higher?
    B: Eh. Just make him level 3.
    A: No way he's level 3. He's the king! The king can't be low level.
    B: Sure he can. He's still a lot more powerful than most people. Do you really want a story in which the king can take on a hundred people at once and emerge with hardly a scratch?
    A: What kind of story would have a low level king?
    B: In nearly any story, 3 isn't low level. I'd say that in most stories everyone involved would be at most level 5.
    A: No way. Of course the strongest people must be level 20.

    And here's where B brings in LOTR as an example. The point is that "you can't be powerful unless you're epic" is something people have learned through playing DnD, but most fantasy heroes simply aren't that powerful. In LOTR, if Aragorn had to face two thousand orcs and three Műmakil on his own, you wouldn't expect him to smile and go "hey, free loot". Thus, there's no reason for you to make your old and not-very-warlike king level 15 "just because he's king".
    There's also the Eberron example where the kings / queens are not necessarily the most powerful characters in their domains. In a modern world example, does anyone expect Barack Obama to be able to defeat JCOS Gen. Martin Dempsey in a mixed-martial arts competition in order to retain the Presidency? Or shall we replace Presidential debates with boxing matches?

    That latter idea has some merit, but anyway ...

    Your king is free to be a putz compared to his loyal bodyguards and generals. What he's got is levels in Aristocrat and Expert(ruler) that most people don't get.
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by cerin616 View Post
    Actually, A guy here on giant made that build not too long ago. its a build based on ranger/rogue, and some finagling to get sneak attack up, uses maiming strike to change each 2d6 sneack attack damage to 1 cha damage. as cha damage it mults on crits. (I want to say he had 14d6 SA and turned it into 7 cha damage) from there you use hunters mercy to auto threat and you multishot blessed and cursed arrows to autocrit anything that isn't neutral.

    His example target was a gold dragon I believe. And he knocked it unconscious in a round with cha damage.
    Smaug did not die from charisma damage. He died from an arrow to the heart, although I will admit one reading of the text is that he lost the ability to fly for a while from the wound, fell into the lake, and drowned.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

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  22. - Top - End - #412
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by cerin616 View Post
    Actually, A guy here on giant made that build not too long ago. its a build based on ranger/rogue, and some finagling to get sneak attack up, uses maiming strike to change each 2d6 sneack attack damage to 1 cha damage. as cha damage it mults on crits. (I want to say he had 14d6 SA and turned it into 7 cha damage) from there you use hunters mercy to auto threat and you multishot blessed and cursed arrows to autocrit anything that isn't neutral.

    His example target was a gold dragon I believe. And he knocked it unconscious in a round with cha damage.
    But Bard killed Smaug, meaning that incapacitation doesn't really count for the contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendol View Post
    In MERP they have a crit table, one of the results is instant death.
    Yes, and if we were modeling Bard in MERP that would make it easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendol View Post
    That's correct, but on the other hand he does seem to be immune to fear, he does have some kind of aura of courage effect on his companions as well, or perhaps inspire courage variant? He has some kind of healing proficiency that is out of the ordinary. As for spells it's hard to tell since no magic in LotR has an easy D&D counterpart. I would model magic more like SLA's than vancian casting, possibly including rituals.

    Why isn't Boromir lawful? I don't see that at all. He probably has the flaw "Weak-willed"...
    Well you could make a case for it, although he is the one who breaks the Fellowship, so it's definitely a moot point.

    It's not really clear if he's actually immune to fear or just extremely strong willed, he does defeat Sauron in a contest of wills. The Inspiring his friends is why I went with the White Raven, you could make an argument for multiclassing Bard, especially since he explicitly uses the Lay of Luthien to fight against evil creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Thought I would circle back to the ur-text, the original Dragon Magazine article:

    http://kuoi.org/~kamikaze/RPG/gandalf.txt
    Which might even work as a thing in AD&D, but it really doesn't in 3.5. Also you'd have to be modeling them as PCs, which they aren't, or at least could very easily not be. There is no "DM" in Tolkien so anything that you put in there to that effect corrupts and puts noise into the model.
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Originally Posted by AMFV
    Possibly, although Goblins are capable of feats of intelligence and engineering and stealth that don't really fit with Orcs in 3.5, there's not really a good fit for them.
    Agreed: the clear distinction between goblins and orcs in 3.5 doesn't translate at all to Middle-Earth, since Tolkien made it plain that the "goblins" of Moria were a different breed of orc. Tolkien doesn't really have creatures like 3.5 goblins in his works. About the closest you can come is the passage from The Hobbit that mentions goblins were mechanically clever, especially at devices that were cruel and hurtful.

    Originally Posted by johnbragg
    Thought I would circle back to the ur-text, the original Dragon Magazine article....
    Since you seem pretty familiar with this article, I'm wondering if you know whether there were any letters to Dragon Magazine on the ur-text, letters which might have been printed in #6 or #7? I'm sure there would have been as much debate on the point in 1977 as there is here in 2014, and those letters would be about the only way to get a glimpse of the reaction.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2014-01-08 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    But Bard killed Smaug, meaning that incapacitation doesn't really count for the contest.
    Well according to the book, the arrow hit smaug in his weak spot, he cried in pain, he fell into the lake, and was dead. It doesn't say what killed him per say.

    EDIT: That's assuming i remember the text correctly.
    Last edited by cerin616; 2014-01-08 at 10:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobtor View Post
    Did someone do the figures for Bard in the hobbit?

    He clearly one shots a Dragon with a bow? What lvl and class can do that?

    Lets assume that Smaug is at least an ancient dragon (maybe even wyrm?)

    In the movie they add some fluff about larger bows and special arrows, in the book on the other hand Bard uses a normal bow and arrow (might be cool or improved weapons but not "High" magic - lets assume no more than +2?).

    OK he hits a special vulnerable spot - lets treat that as a critical hit and also one that passes any damage resistence and so on. Since the dragon was not aware of him sneak attack could also be a possibility.

    Now I don't know alot of D&D, but it seems to me Bard muist be above lvl 5....

    Lets assume it is a large bow for 2d6 damage +2 for magic bow? and +8 for very high str and lvl modifier, lvl five adds 3d6 sneak attack (if Bard is a Rogue) for a maximum of 40 damage with all 5 d rolling a 6! Critical is times 3 if I remember correct so at most 120 damage. Even at lvl 15 he could not one shot a dragon (can someone calculate WHEN he will be able to with insanely lucky rolls of all dices showing maximum?)

    I am not saying this to argue that Bard must be a certain lvl or that Aragorn must so as well (since he must be nearly as cool or more likely cooler than Bard). But that applying lvls to books makes no sense...
    The Hobbit noval is even more hectic for judging power levels then LOTR, I probably wouldn't even go there. Bard was either an soloing NPC that served as a pivotal plot device to account for player screw up, or a player who rolled exceedingly lucky. Just either way, he got extremely lucky and killed a dragon. I don't feel it's possible to read into it any more then that, only that it happened climatically.

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by cerin616 View Post
    Well according to the book, the arrow hit smaug in his weak spot, he cried in pain, he fell into the lake, and was dead. It doesn't say what killed him per say.
    True, I may concede that point, although it doesn't match the fluff for maiming strike at all, which lowers your Charisma by maiming you, and I know that the fluff isn't exactly the most important thing, but it should count for something if we're trying to make a more exact model.
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    True, I may concede that point, although it doesn't match the fluff for maiming strike at all, which lowers your Charisma by maiming you, and I know that the fluff isn't exactly the most important thing, but it should count for something if we're trying to make a more exact model.
    I just like to think that Smaug's "cry of pain" was "OH GOD, MY PRETTY! YOU HIT MY RIGHT IN THE PRETTY."
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by cerin616 View Post
    I just like to think that Smaug's "cry of pain" was "OH GOD, MY PRETTY! YOU HIT MY RIGHT IN THE PRETTY."
    Certainly it's possible although I think it would take more than 5 levels and as such would require that Bard be a higher level, and so if we're assuming that the fellowship is more powerful that would mean 5+, if I recollect correctly.
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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Originally Posted by cerin616
    Well according to the book, the arrow hit smaug in his weak spot, he cried in pain, he fell into the lake, and was dead. It doesn't say what killed him per say.

    EDIT: That's assuming i remember the text correctly
    .
    Does anyone, I dunno, have an actual copy of the book they could check?

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2014-01-08 at 10:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Aragorn Was A Fifth-Level Ranger, Yadda Yadda

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Does anyone, I dunno, have an actual copy of the book they could check?
    The arrow disappeared into the left side of Smaug's chest, shaft, feathers and all. Then Smaug shrieked, flew up a ways suddenly, and then fell on Laketown, sinking into the lake.
    Given the attention to the side the arrow hit, and how deep it went, I think it's fair to assume that the arrow killed him.
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