Gate takes a piece of your soul? Huh?!

[TooSoon]

I'm a but perplexed by the latest comic, where Redcloak claims that using Gate will take a piece of his soul. As I understand it, this is not how Gate works. It just takes some XP, and a trivial amount at that. Is there some special summons from some obscure sourcebook that requires a piece of your soul that I am not aware of?

I hate to be the rule Nazi, but barring clarification from the author this is going to bug me. The story, even though it has diverged from being about D&D mechanics, does exist within that framework to some extent. The author uses it all the time to their benefit, quite wisely, to save explaining how certain things are happening or working. Certainly less confusing than carving a magic system from nothing to be sure.

The thing is we have seen people use Gate, including to summon things, and there is nothing about it taking some of their soul (and if that is a bad thing why did good characters like Dorukan use it, and why does his soul seem intact and fine inside Xykon's gem?). I'm hoping I'm wrong, but this feels like a Chekov's gun that is going to be used to save Redcloak after the Snarl destroys his soul or some sort of twist, which feels like a plot cheat tbh. I doubt the author said soul as a shorthand for XP, because he has referred to XP for other summons like Durkon's Divas. Can someone provide some kind of source basis for this soul thing so it stops bugging me? I also don't get how the MiTD says he hasn't seen the spell before, when he has legit seen him cast it. I guess it's just him being slow? I thought it wasn't impossible Redcloak has already used Gate to summon the crew who helped take down the Azure City resistance tbh. This just feels really out of left field. Is it being done to Nerf Gate or something? But we already saw people use Gate no problem.

[vwyx]

They're just using "a bit of your soul" as an elaborate way of saying "a bit of XP." The way XP functions in the universe isn't clearly defined, so having it be part of your soul is totally fine, imo.

[Peelee]

Clarification from the author:

As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't.

[Clistenes]

While OotS doesn't stick strictly to the rules of any D&D edition, it is roughly based on 3.5 edition, and in such edition using the spell Gate to Call an Outsider as help costs you 1000 xp.

So Redcloak is paying 1000 xp, which, from their point of view, means paying "a bit of your soul".

[Faldrath]

It's a joke. Redcloak is reacting to the MitD's comments about the Gate. He gets angry so he needs to make a concentration check, so he just says it's costing him his soul, as in "MitD is so dumb, it's soul-crushing".

[Gift Jeraff]

Tha more levels, tha better the souls.
Experience Points = soul power
I imagine this is why the gods don't just make a bunch of rapidly producing creatures with short lifespans to rapidly harvest a bunch of souls.

[Ruck]

It's a joke. Redcloak is reacting to the MitD's comments about the Gate. He gets angry so he needs to make a concentration check, so he just says it's costing him his soul, as in "MitD is so dumb, it's soul-crushing".

The casting seems to cause him physical pain, and I see no indication of sarcasm from Redcloak there, so I don't see this interpretation at all.

[Faldrath]

The casting seems to cause him physical pain, and I see no indication of sarcasm from Redcloak there, so I don't see this interpretation at all.

He has cast it before without any physical repercussions (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html , and possibly also when he crushed the Elven Resistance - although he does say he has never cast this *exact* spell, so that is open to interpretation), and so has Dorukan. There are red squiggly things around his head as if he's having to focus. He usually gets upset when MitD does things he considers dumb. It's more likely that his visage of pain refers more to "omg I can't believe he's talking about the gate again, but I can't actually tell him off or I'll waste the spell". Of course I can't be certain, but to me it makes more sense than "hey, Gate actually drains a bit of one's soul but no one had ever mentioned it before".

[Mike Havran]

He has cast it before without any physical repercussions (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html , and possibly also when he crushed the Elven Resistance - although he does say he has never cast this *exact* spell, so that is open to interpretation), and so has Dorukan. There are red squiggly things around his head as if he's having to focus. He usually gets upset when MitD does things he considers dumb. It's more likely that his visage of pain refers more to "omg I can't believe he's talking about the gate again, but I can't actually tell him off or I'll waste the spell". Of course I can't be certain, but to me it makes more sense than "hey, Gate actually drains a bit of one's soul but no one had ever mentioned it before".

Gate only costs EXP when you call a creature, not when you use it for a transport to another plane.

[hroþila]

It's a bit weird that previous instances of Gate being used to summon beings never showed the caster to be in pain, but on the other hand this particular Gate spell might be a slightly modified version (which would explain why Redcloak says he's never cast this exact spell before).

[Faldrath]

Gate only costs EXP when you call a creature, not when you use it for a transport to another plane.

Ah, I wasn't aware, thanks. I still prefer my joke interpretation, if only because if it actually cost part of the caster's soul, no one would ever cast it unless under the most dire circumstances, given that souls are confirmed entities in that universe.

[Ruck]

It's a bit weird that previous instances of Gate being used to summon beings never showed the caster to be in pain

How often have we actually seen Gate used in that manner? I only recall once, in Start of Darkness.

[TaiLiu]

How often have we actually seen Gate used in that manner? I only recall once, in Start of Darkness.

Yeah, just twice. Right now, and in SOD. One possible explanation: Redcloak just recently leveled to 17, and so he doesn't have too many experience points (parts of his soul) to give away. It's also his first time using the spell like this. Dorukan might have had more spare experience, and he might've cast it before. Cuz of familiarity, he didn't show the same reaction.

It's also possible that celestial beings make the soul-sucking effect less painful. Beings of pure law might not care.

[hroþila]

Yeah I have this vague, probably implanted memory of Durkon casting it on-panel at some point either as part of a flashback or as an imagine spot, but I just checked the most likely candidate to contain such a scene (the 4E story in SSDT) and there's nothing like that in there, so I probably dreamed it up.

[tyckspoon]

Yeah I have this vague, probably implanted memory of Durkon casting it on-panel at some point either as part of a flashback or as an imagine spot, but I just checked the most likely candidate to contain such a scene (the 4E story in SSDT) and there's nothing like that in there, so I probably dreamed it up.

Vampire-Durkon cast it in https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html, but it was from a scroll, so the cost of it would have been paid by whoever made the scroll and not by the caster.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah I have this vague, probably implanted memory of Durkon casting it on-panel at some point either as part of a flashback or as an imagine spot, but I just checked the most likely candidate to contain such a scene (the 4E story in SSDT) and there's nothing like that in there, so I probably dreamed it up.

You may be thinking of Durkon talking about planar ally, which has an XP cost, in #865. Unclear whether it hurt when it was actually cast, though.

[TooSoon]

If Gate took a part of your soul every time you cast it, no scrolls for it would exist. A caster who has access to level 9 spells has other valuable spells they can infuse into scrolls for huge amounts of money without such an absurd cost. It rings untrue to me that others have cast Gate with no seeming cost (including, we thought, Redcloak when he took out the Azure City resistance), yet now it suddenly drains your soul. How did the many summoners over the millennia of the multiverse even function if the spell has such a cost. I guess while Ganonron was conquering "world after world" he never used Gate, because he'd be dead from using it too much. I can only hope this is some special cost due to a particularly overpowered summons RC is about to get, otherwise this just seems bizarre.

The take people have of this being shorthand for XP use doesn't make sense. Other casters don't refer to it this way, including Durkon multiple times (when asking V about Epic Teleport, and when discussing his own XP summons), and other XP spells do not seem to be life draining; they just work like normal.

[TaiLiu]

Vampire-Durkon cast it in https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html, but it was from a scroll, so the cost of it would have been paid by whoever made the scroll and not by the caster.

Oh, good point. I had forgotten about the vampire's summoning.

If Gate took a part of your soul every time you cast it, no scrolls for it would exist.

It is surprising that scrolls of ninth level spells exist. Who's writing them? Why? And why is it not just for themselves?

The take people have of this being shorthand for XP use doesn't make sense. Other casters don't refer to it this way, including Durkon multiple times (when asking V about Epic Teleport, and when discussing his own XP summons), and other XP spells do not seem to be life draining; they just work like normal.

But we know that experience points are, in some sense, soul points. As this comic as progressed, Rich has been using fewer and fewer D&D 3.5e terms. Once upon a time, it made sense to talk about xp directly. Now I think he's ill-inclined to do it. Hence the talk about soul pieces.

[ff7hero]

If Gate took a part of your soul every time you cast it, no scrolls for it would exist. A caster who has access to level 9 spells has other valuable spells they can infuse into scrolls for huge amounts of money without such an absurd cost. It rings untrue to me that others have cast Gate with no seeming cost (including, we thought, Redcloak when he took out the Azure City resistance), yet now it suddenly drains your soul. How did the many summoners over the millennia of the multiverse even function if the spell has such a cost. I guess while Ganonron was conquering "world after world" he never used Gate, because he'd be dead from using it too much. I can only hope this is some special cost due to a particularly overpowered summons RC is about to get, otherwise this just seems bizarre.

The take people have of this being shorthand for XP use doesn't make sense. Other casters don't refer to it this way, including Durkon multiple times (when asking V about Epic Teleport, and when discussing his own XP summons), and other XP spells do not seem to be life draining; they just work like normal.

Even if we ignore the easy explanation of it being a reference to the XP cost, you're making a lot of assumptions about the nature of the soul here. For all we know the soul is like the liver and you can keep using slivers of it for spells as long as you give it time to grow back.

[brian 333]

Exp cost is life draining. Energy Drain, which takes life by the level, also takes exp. (Any level drain effect takes away exp.)

The fact that exp can be earned, and thus the affected part of the soul can regrow, (analogous to a pruned shrub regrowing,) means that a scroll scriber can scribe as many scrolls with an exp cost as desired, so long as enough exp is available to avoid level loss. Spells and magic items that cost exp can likewise be cast in nearly unlimited quantity. The only limit is the caster's ability to earn exp which can then be used for the purpose.

If experience points had been called Soul Points, there would have been no functional difference in their mechanical use.

[TooSoon]

There has been absolutely zero reference to XP being equivalent to your soul, or of the using of XP to be a soul sucking thing that causes you physical pain. It seems like some people are trying too hard to make this work, rather than treating it as the new development it is.

The only thing we've been told RE: XP in relation to souls is that stronger souls (who have more XP) are worth more. The idea that a portion of your soul is removed whenever you burn some XP is a wholly different concept, with potentially far reaching implications.

We have also seen people lose XP before, and at no time have they winced or been in pain as a result, or said or indicated anything whatever about their soul being sucked away.

[theangelJean]

We have also seen people lose XP before, and at no time have they winced or been in pain as a result, or said or indicated anything whatever about their soul being sucked away.

Really? I thought Energy Drain spells and other level-draining effects had been depicted as fairly painful every time they were used.

Excuse me while I do an archive trawl...

[Bohandas]

Gate has an XP cost in 3.5e

[The MunchKING]

How often have we actually seen Gate used in that manner? I only recall once, in Start of Darkness.

The vampire cleric guy gated in the giant Hel Wurm thing in the fight for the council of the Clans. He didn't seem that bothered by it, but that could be Undead don't feel SOul Pain the way someone whose actually using one does. Or it's because it was cast from a scroll. Do Scrolls get around XP cost?

Exp cost is life draining. Energy Drain, which takes life by the level, also takes exp. (Any level drain effect takes away exp.)

Does it? I thought it just imposed negative levels that made you act as if you were a level lower, but you kept your XP.

[ff7hero]

Do Scrolls get around XP cost?

Yes and no. The scriber pays the XP cost, not the end user.

[hamishspence]

Does it? I thought it just imposed negative levels that made you act as if you were a level lower, but you kept your XP.

And also, one day after the drain, character must make tests, to see if the drain is permanent.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm

There is no saving throw to avoid gaining the negative levels, but 24 hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC = energy drain spell’s save DC) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, the negative level also goes away, but one of the subject’s character levels is permanently drained.

[hroþila]

You may be thinking of Durkon talking about planar ally, which has an XP cost, in #865. Unclear whether it hurt when it was actually cast, though.

Yeah this is likely the main ingredient of my fake memory. Kinda embarrassing

[pearl jam]

You may be thinking of Durkon talking about planar ally, which has an XP cost, in #865. Unclear whether it hurt when it was actually cast, though.

Yeah this is likely the main ingredient of my fake memory. Kinda embarrassing

Blackwing's comeback in that last link.


Also, it's reasonable to suppose that losing 250xp is less painful than 1000xp, so perhaps even if there were pain it is a level that wasn't wince-inducing.

[Chincaa]

Why not just say XP? XP has been mentioned a lot of times, all of the characters seem well aware of it and "a piece of your soul" seems really extreme in comparison.

[Peelee]

If Gate took a part of your soul every time you cast it, no scrolls for it would exist.

The facts the it takes part of your soul when you cast it and that a scroll of it exists would seem to imply that your assessment may not be entirely correct.