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Thread: Steven Universe

  1. - Top - End - #1201
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    Default Re: Steven Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
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    Oh my d'awwwww. So cute. So loveable. I wonder, though, what the creators are... allowed to do. We've had Sapphire kissing Ruby's eyes, and here Ruby's kissing Sapphire's neck while she blushes. It's so obviously a girl-on-girl relationship, but we've yet to see a straight up mouth to mouth kiss, which is like the one thing you always see between a couple on tv. Eh, I'm super excited that CN is allowing this much.

    Also; "I'm off meet a man about a tunnel brush. An internet man... if I'm not back in an hour, call the police." Might be the greatest line in the show.
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    Ruby is masculine enough that I imagine the countries that don't allow homosexuality will just give her a dude's voice and leave it at that. Also for any of you reading this that think companies don't put that in their shows due to the religious factions out here in the West, that's actually not true, at least it hasn't been since the late 80's-early 90's. Places like Russia and China ban those kinds of things outright so any network that wants to have their show hosted in that country can't feature these sorts of things or just outright censors the episodes that feature them.


    Can I just say that out of all the unfused gems Sapphire is probably the weirdest one out of all of them?

  2. - Top - End - #1202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Curiously, all the other fusions we see so far are one-note, rather than their constituent parts. Sugilite just wants to smash, Sardonyx has a singularly show-off personality, Opal is distractable and daydreamy. Given how small Ruby and Sapphire are, maybe they are literally incomplete when apart...
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    Maybe, though we had more focus on Ruby and Sapphire here than we usually get out of the fusions. Like, I don't even know that your Opal description is all that accurate, because it's hinged on exactly one thing she did in one scene. I'm inclined to think that all of these characters will see a bit more development when they pop up a bit more. After all, the gems themselves started out pretty one note. I guess my problem with Ruby and Sapphire, or what my problem was in the earlier parts of the episode, is that their one note was so extreme. Having characters get so emotional that they change the state of water, it doesn't leave much room at the edges for possibilities.

    Although, as I indicated with Opal, I think your assessments of the fusions may be a bit simplistic. I hadn't even really noticed the distractable aspect of her personality, focusing more on the Pearl expressed grace and balance, and as I result I had thought it was Amethyst mostly getting stuck out of the loop. If you add the stuff you noted though, you end up with a good blend of Pearl and Amethyst, full of grace but occasionally losing track of details. Sugilite, I'm not sure what her nuance is, but when I think about her, I think there might be more to her than smashing. Her interaction with Pearl was driven more by rage and betrayal than by just a pure desire to smash, and similarly, her destruction of the pillars probably was partially driven by that desire, but there was something else to it, an intense focus that left no room for outside influence of any kind. In those traits, that single minded focus and passionate rage, you get Garnet, and in the lust for destruction and jokey nature, you get Amethyst. I'm inclined to think that Sugilite loses a lot of Sapphire in the conversion, acting a lot more like an Amethyst/Pearl combo.

    And, just like Sugilite loses a lot of Sapphire, I think Sardonyx may lose some of Ruby. Or not, actually, thinking about it more. There's showmanship to her, yes, but that masks a deep intelligence, and as with Opal, grace. She's boisterous, in a way that reflects both the self confident self knowledge of Garnet and the know-it-all nature of Pearl. She picks up some of Sapphire's knowledge of the future, and perfect awareness of her surroundings, in her ability to pinpoint the right things to hit, she gets Ruby's direction and focus towards a problem, and she gets Pearl's intelligence and ability to consider three dimensional space.

    Which brings us back to Ruby and Sapphire. I don't think they were necessarily handled wrong, for the episode, which to me seems to mean that they probably aren't non-entities or proto-entities when split. There were motivations underlying their actions that were entirely separate from their personalities, and it's pretty clear that Ruby is capable of not getting so mad she boils a pool, and that Sapphire is capable of not holding in so much that she freezes a room. As much as they get out of being together, I suspect that they weren't entirely incapable of operating when they were alone, even if they probably found it difficult. But, for a few minutes there, it was a lot. Maybe too much. I felt, when I first saw Ruby and Sapphire separated, that this was the time for nuance where their first episode was the time for basic introductions. They eventually delivered somewhat, but I thought it was rough going for a bit.

  3. - Top - End - #1203
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    I've really, really been wanting to see more of Sapphire and Ruby, and this episode was everything I'd ever hoped for.

    I was happy to see that Ruby is exactly the emotional and rage-filled lunatic I was expecting. The entire breakfast scene was great, but particularly the exchange:

    "Don't worry. She'll eventually burn herself out."
    "That's what you think! I AM AN ETERNAL FLAME, BABY!" (╯□)╯︵ ┻━┻)

    I'm also pretty sure I heard her yelling "You don't know me!" after that, which is just completely hilarious to me. Partially because I myself am weirdly fond of yelling this phrase, partially because it's coming from someone who is fused literally 24/7. I think she probably knows you by now, Ruby. (Secondary best line: "I'm going to meet a man from the internet! . . . If I'm not back in an hour, call the police.")

    And then the ending was absolutely adorable, with the fight dissolving instantly the second they realized how much they were upsetting Steven, Sapphire showing actual emotion and realizing her mistake, and cute sappy re-fusion. So yeah, overall very happy with this episode, I loved it. Hopefully we'll see Ruby and Sapphire again under less dire circumstances.

  4. - Top - End - #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helanna View Post
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    I'm also pretty sure I heard her yelling "You don't know me!" after that, which is just completely hilarious to me. Partially because I myself am weirdly fond of yelling this phrase, partially because it's coming from someone who is fused literally 24/7. I think she probably knows you by now, Ruby.
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    I'm pretty sure Sapphire answered that with "How could I possible not know you, we're always fused."
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    Oh, wait, forgot what might be my favorite part of the episode, which was Greg just being so damnably knowing with regards to Ruby and Sapphire. It's easy to forget, even in the wake of episodes like Maximum Capacity and We Need to Talk, that Greg knows a really large quantity of stuff about the gems. I always love him matter of factly dealing with these seemingly crazy and magical problem.

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    I think Greg got Garnet's hint back in We Need To Talk.
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  7. - Top - End - #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    I think Greg got Garnet's hint back in We Need To Talk.
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    Nah, this was more than that. Greg didn't just know about Ruby and Sapphire. He's seen them when they're like this, watched things go to hell, and then saw that tear mended after a day or so. His reaction in this episode wasn't, "Oh, wow, they never split up. I knew this was a possibility, but I hadn't prepared myself for it." It was, "Oh, this again? Yeah, that happens sometimes. Do ya want a hug?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    A human centipeedle where you actually know who the individual people forced into it are?
    Considering that'd be the case in either case, that's a pretty poor deflection on your part.
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  9. - Top - End - #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Considering that'd be the case in either case, that's a pretty poor deflection on your part.
    We don't even know their NAMES bro.

    Anyway, thoughts:
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    Ruby being female seems really weird to me. Giant biceps and being physically top heavy tend to be male traits.

    Ruby and Sapphire are very clearly using each other as a crutch. Fire and Ice are hella useful but they're so codependant they can't even function without each other.

    Stevens feelings being hurt are seriously what drives them over the edge? Not, say, their ridiculous violent outburst costing Greg hundreds to thousands in damages and getting him banned from a resturant he likes to go to?

    I gotta say I'm not impressed. I was willing to give Ruby and Sapphire a mulligan for being under duress last time, but now it's clear they can't handle even the smallest bit of pressure alone and have no redeeming qualities in and of themselves.
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  10. - Top - End - #1210
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    That's a rather unkind interpretation.

    Ruby, the one who feels the most, is very clearly very very pissed off, and is upset that Sapphire is so calm.

    In fact, I don't see how "couple has a fight" makes them codependant.

    Garnet, and thus Ruby and Sapphire, is/are one of Steven's guardians(She's called Square Mom for a reason). When the guardians of a child steven's age fight, the child often feels responsible.

    And the Gems are established as not giving half a damn about collateral damage.
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  11. - Top - End - #1211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    That's a rather unkind interpretation.

    Ruby, the one who feels the most, is very clearly very very pissed off, and is upset that Sapphire is so calm.

    In fact, I don't see how "couple has a fight" makes them codependant.

    Garnet, and thus Ruby and Sapphire, is/are one of Steven's guardians(She's called Square Mom for a reason). When the guardians of a child steven's age fight, the child often feels responsible.

    And the Gems are established as not giving half a damn about collateral damage.
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    It's not that they're fighting, it's how. They destroyed a whole lot of crap in their lovers spat.

    As for not giving half a damn, that doesn't really negate no redeeming qualities. If they had a single virtue to either name I'd probably be kinder.
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    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
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    Love isn't a virtue?

    I'm still trying to figure out how their fighting is evidence of their co-dependence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    That's a rather unkind interpretation.
    something something Jayngfet experience.
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  14. - Top - End - #1214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Love isn't a virtue?

    I'm still trying to figure out how their fighting is evidence of their co-dependence?
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    Probably some nonsense about Ruby needing Sapphire's calm to function on a basic level as a sentient life-form

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Anyway, thoughts:
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    Ruby being female seems really weird to me. Giant biceps and being physically top heavy tend to be male traits.

    Ruby and Sapphire are very clearly using each other as a crutch. Fire and Ice are hella useful but they're so codependant they can't even function without each other.

    Stevens feelings being hurt are seriously what drives them over the edge? Not, say, their ridiculous violent outburst costing Greg hundreds to thousands in damages and getting him banned from a resturant he likes to go to?

    I gotta say I'm not impressed. I was willing to give Ruby and Sapphire a mulligan for being under duress last time, but now it's clear they can't handle even the smallest bit of pressure alone and have no redeeming qualities in and of themselves.
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    I think you're thinking about this in a very wrong way. Ruby and Sapphire aren't usually like this. It's the fact that they're in such a bad mood that they'd split apart that caused them to be somewhat non-functional when we saw them. If they somehow split apart in a way that wasn't kinda traumatic, maybe cause they need elemental powers, then they'll probably be quite a bit more level headed. As is, Garnet was hit in what to our knowledge is her most vulnerable spot, and by one of her closest friends, and that's going to bring out the worst in anyone. More to the point, their separation, if brought about in that way, is necessarily going to indicate that Ruby and Sapphire are as far on their emotional extremes as they're going to be.

    And yes, Steven's feelings make absolute sense as a thing that would drive them over the edge. We know from episodes like Beach Party that Garnet couldn't possibly care less about property damage inflicted on human eating establishments, and we know from episodes like Future Vision that Garnet cares a massive amount about Steven's emotional state, especially in regards to her. Garnet isn't a perfect being, and her apathy about stuff like that is one of her flaws, but it's one that's been established before. Garnet breaks her aloofness where Steven is concerned, but she's at least partially defined by that aloofness, valuing the big picture and personal relationships over diner tables. If your values are different than hers, I'm not at all surprised, and I'm certainly not the table flip followed by apathy type, but I'm honestly pretty happy to get more of an insight into what makes Garnet a flawed character.

    That's not to say that their portrayal was perfect though. As I've said, I felt that the treatment of Ruby and Sapphire, at least early in their introduction to the episode, while logically consistent with what we know, was rather unsubtle. Reading comments elsewhere, I think it might have something to do with the animation style of it, playing it up for comic exaggeration instead of drama, or something like that. It just felt kinda off to me. They pulled the portrayal out near the end though, when Ruby and Sapphire showed off what they're like when they're playing closer to the middle of the spectrum, and then going all in on cheesy romance. Most of the episode was very good, but there were a few minutes there that I don't think were so, and a few minutes is a lot when eleven of them is all ya got.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2015-07-14 at 11:12 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #1216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Love isn't a virtue?

    I'm still trying to figure out how their fighting is evidence of their co-dependence?
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    Love is, in fact, not a virtue. Virtue implies moral standard, under the actual definition of Virtue.

    As for co-dependance. They did thousands in property damage. As someone who's actually had to deal with fixing pools I can tell you what Ruby did would require some extensive work to actually fix, and that's before all of the wallpaper in the room being replaced, if the baseboard and structure doesn't need work, which is most likely does. Or getting a new table for the diner, which someone else had to pay for despite the CG's apparently having their own money to buy Cookie Cat stuff.

    If they literally can not keep it together to the point where somebody else has to pick up the pieces, and to that extent, it shows that they're emotionally unstable and using a crutch to be able to barely function.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
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    Probably some nonsense about Ruby needing Sapphire's calm to function on a basic level as a sentient life-form
    That's literally the dictionary definition of codependance.

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
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    I think you're thinking about this in a very wrong way. Ruby and Sapphire aren't usually like this.
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    I'm gonna stop you right there. That's the point.

    You don't learn anything about a person in ideal circumstances. Even Stalin could be a nice guy if you give him a big meal and his favorite drink. You learn things about them in the heat of the moment. When you strip away everything else and put someone under pressure, you see how they act and what they're made of.

    Ruby and Sapphire are weak and fragile. In the thick of things, on their own, they can't be relied upon to act capably, and when their friends do something crappy, it all goes to pot for them, which is one of the rare things I must give Steven given his reaction in the season finale. He at least tries to act when his feet are to the fire and doesn't lose his cool.
    Last edited by Jayngfet; 2015-07-14 at 11:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
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    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
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    something something Jayngfet experience.

  17. - Top - End - #1217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
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    I'm gonna stop you right there. That's the point.

    You don't learn anything about a person in ideal circumstances. Even Stalin could be a nice guy if you give him a big meal and his favorite drink. You learn things about them in the heat of the moment. When you strip away everything else and put someone under pressure, you see how they act and what they're made of.

    Ruby and Sapphire are weak and fragile. In the thick of things, on their own, they can't be relied upon to act capably, and when their friends do something crappy, it all goes to pot for them, which is one of the rare things I must give Steven given his reaction in the season finale. He at least tries to act when his feet are to the fire and doesn't lose his cool.
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    People fight, sometimes. Sometimes that sometimes is a lot of the times. That doesn't make you weak, and neither does getting angry when it happens. It just makes you a person, or I suppose a person shaped solid hologram, in this case. And, as always, I fail to see how the characters having a flaw is somehow a bad thing. If anything, it's an awesome thing. You noted that Steven reacts pretty well to stuff like this, and that's because that's one of Steven's strengths. Steven has weaknesses too, as you've noted, and in those areas, Garnet is pretty damnably strong, to the point where I was getting a bit worried that she was just going to run around being perfect the whole show. I don't think they're codependent so much as they are just straight up emotional because they had a fight themselves after a big falling out with Pearl.

    And, of course, when you strip away everything else, Ruby and Sapphire are a pair of characters that can recover from a big fight with both Pearl and each other in about a day. That doesn't seem weak to me. From Greg's words, that doesn't sound like a thing unusual to fights where Steven is there to smooth things over either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
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    People fight, sometimes. Sometimes that sometimes is a lot of the times. That doesn't make you weak, and neither does getting angry when it happens. It just makes you a person, or I suppose a person shaped solid hologram, in this case. And, as always, I fail to see how the characters having a flaw is somehow a bad thing. If anything, it's an awesome thing. You noted that Steven reacts pretty well to stuff like this, and that's because that's one of Steven's strengths. Steven has weaknesses too, as you've noted, and in those areas, Garnet is pretty damnably strong, to the point where I was getting a bit worried that she was just going to run around being perfect the whole show. I don't think they're codependent so much as they are just straight up emotional because they had a fight themselves after a big falling out with Pearl.

    And, of course, when you strip away everything else, Ruby and Sapphire are a pair of characters that can recover from a big fight with both Pearl and each other in about a day. That doesn't seem weak to me. From Greg's words, that doesn't sound like a thing unusual to fights where Steven is there to smooth things over either.
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    That's the thing though. They have weaknesses, and characters are allowed them to a degree, but they lack strengths. Steven may have a ton of flaws, but he's got enough to at least be a salvageable character. He has a degree of bravery and creativity and he's willing to work toward peace and defend people. He's virtuous, in his own sense.

    What virtue do either of those two have, or hell what does Garnet have? They obviously fed Steven some spiel about Crystal Gems working to protect people for their gratitude and nothing else, but even as Garnet it's obvious their leader gives not a single crap about innocent people or others possessions. Ruby and Sapphire are even worse, simply because while Garnet is at least somewhat cool under pressure those two are actively destructive and endangering other people's things without a hint of regard for others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    something something Jayngfet experience.

  19. - Top - End - #1219
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    Causing Property Damage during a fight does not prove codependency.

    It proves that they were pissed off.

    If they were as Codependant as you claim, then one of them would have tried to appease the other.

    The problem is, we only see them when they're upset about something.

    You can't make a fair judgement of them until you see them when they're not angry, scared, or disgusted by something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Causing Property Damage during a fight does not prove codependency.

    It proves that they were pissed off.

    If they were as Codependant as you claim, then one of them would have tried to appease the other.

    The problem is, we only see them when they're upset about something.

    You can't make a fair judgement of them until you see them when they're not angry, scared, or disgusted by something.
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    Yes. It does. It shows you literally cannot function alone.

    And yes, I can make fair judgement based on that. Because again, anyone can be pleasant in a good mood. To see someone under pressure is to see how they act when they don't have a buffer.

    What do you think would be gained by having them show up on a good day? They'd just show up, smile a little bit, and you could write in the platitudes then. It'd be interchangeable with anything anyone else could say. It's only when things happen that someone's true character is revealed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    something something Jayngfet experience.

  21. - Top - End - #1221
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    No. It does not show codependency.

    The only thing it shows is that they're dangerous when they're pissed off.

    This Episode also shows that Ruby and Sapphire express anger in different ways, so a sufficiently pissed off Garnet won't stay together.

    And when it comes to codependency, seeing them when they're both pissed off, or terrified because they've been forcibly separated, or when they're disgusted by the awful thing the Homeworld did, that's not enough.

    codependency means they cannot funtion apart at all.

    If they can funtion apart on a normal day when they aren't pissed off and weren't taken apart by force, then they aren't codependant.

    And I still fail to see how "They're capable of having fights" and "They cause collateral damage" says anything about being codependent. The second just says you don't want to piss them off but says nothing about their relationship, and the first, if anything, is evidence against codependency because a codependent couple would have had one partner appease the other well before they noticed Steven was upset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
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    That's the thing though. They have weaknesses, and characters are allowed them to a degree, but they lack strengths. Steven may have a ton of flaws, but he's got enough to at least be a salvageable character. He has a degree of bravery and creativity and he's willing to work toward peace and defend people. He's virtuous, in his own sense.

    What virtue do either of those two have, or hell what does Garnet have? They obviously fed Steven some spiel about Crystal Gems working to protect people for their gratitude and nothing else, but even as Garnet it's obvious their leader gives not a single crap about innocent people or others possessions. Ruby and Sapphire are even worse, simply because while Garnet is at least somewhat cool under pressure those two are actively destructive and endangering other people's things without a hint of regard for others.
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    Garnet is strong, both in body and mind, she's currently the best leader the group has, she's decisive, she's actually been doing a pretty good job at raising Steven, she's determined, she's often pragmatic, and she's typically pretty level headed in the face of problems. There's probably others I'm forgetting too.


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    Yes. It does. It shows you literally cannot function alone.

    And yes, I can make fair judgement based on that. Because again, anyone can be pleasant in a good mood. To see someone under pressure is to see how they act when they don't have a buffer.

    What do you think would be gained by having them show up on a good day? They'd just show up, smile a little bit, and you could write in the platitudes then. It'd be interchangeable with anything anyone else could say. It's only when things happen that someone's true character is revealed.
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    But this wasn't just a bad day. This was just about her worst day. By seeing someone on their worst day, you get to find out what they're like on their worst day. Not much more and not much less. We don't necessarily have to see Ruby and Sapphire on the greatest day of their lives, but seeing them dealing with more standard level conflict could give us a deeper understanding. Like, Rose's Scabbard is Pearl on just about her worst day. We learned a lot about her character from it, but I wouldn't claim a perfect knowledge of her from it. You also need some more medium days, like most of the episodes of the show, and maybe some pretty bad days, like Coach Steven, and maybe even a few good days, because what you gain from having them show up on a good day is finding out what they're like on a good day. In fact, seeing Garnet on her good days has really broadened my understanding of her as a character, because it breaks through her usual stoicism. This was Garnet's worst day so far, and Future Vision was her pretty bad day, and Keeping it Together was another pretty bad day, albeit one that mostly set up this flaw rather than using it.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2015-07-15 at 12:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
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    Garnet is strong, both in body and mind, she's currently the best leader the group has, she's decisive, she's actually been doing a pretty good job at raising Steven, she's determined, she's often pragmatic, and she's typically pretty level headed in the face of problems. There's probably others I'm forgetting too.


    She resorts to violence and is too slow to use future vision. She imparts onto Steven no lessons and gives him no structure. She's not really any of those things because all her other flaws get in the way of them.

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    But this wasn't just a bad day. This was just about her worst day. By seeing someone on their worst day, you get to find out what they're like on their worst day. Not much more and not much less. We don't necessarily have to see Ruby and Sapphire on the greatest day of their lives, but seeing them dealing with more standard level conflict could give us a deeper understanding. Like, Rose's Scabbard is Pearl on just about her worst day. We learned a lot about her character from it, but I wouldn't claim a perfect knowledge of her from it. You also need some more medium days, like most of the episodes of the show, and maybe some pretty bad days, like Coach Steven, and maybe even a few good days, because what you gain from having them show up on a good day is finding out what they're like on a good day. In fact, seeing Garnet on her good days has really broadened my understanding of her as a character, because it breaks through her usual stoicism. This was Garnet's worst day so far, and Future Vision was her pretty bad day, and Keeping it Together was another pretty bad day, albeit one that mostly set up this flaw rather than using it.
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    If this was their worst day, I'd like to see what they're like during real problems and not relationship ones. Being kidnapped and forcefully separated was probably more telling for me than this was on who they are.
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    If you can't understand why an argument with your SO can feel a million times worse than being separated by force I dunno what to tell you, but you and I have very different worldviews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phase View Post
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    If you can't understand why an argument with your SO can feel a million times worse than being separated by force I dunno what to tell you, but you and I have very different worldviews.
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    Having your whole family kidnapped and then being flown off to meet space Hitler is kinda worse than a lovers spat.
    Last edited by Jayngfet; 2015-07-15 at 12:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    She resorts to violence and is too slow to use future vision. She imparts onto Steven no lessons and gives him no structure. She's not really any of those things because all her other flaws get in the way of them.
    She does sometimes resort to violence when it's unnecessary, but that's a flaw of hers completely separate from her definitely existent strengths, and given that you also criticized Steven for resorting to not-violence, I'm not entirely sure how these characters can win with you. On future vision, it's still not all that clear how powerful it is as an ability, and recent depictions have given cause to reduce it from effective omniscience to answering very specific questions that you have to actively ask it. As for Steven, she's not heavy on structure, but what she does as a parental figure is give him a relatively safe space to explore and grow, letting him learn through experience, and trusting her abilities to protect him if things go too far awry. It may not be your preferred parental style, but it seems just fine to me. I'm not really sure how these flaws negate her strengths either. They just kinda sit next to them, as flaws do. I'm not even sure how you're coming to this conclusion, because until just now, she was perhaps the least flawed character on the entire show.

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    If this was their worst day, I'd like to see what they're like during real problems and not relationship ones. Being kidnapped and forcefully separated was probably more telling for me than this was on who they are.
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    Garnet's real problems are her relationship ones. Being kidnapped, or facing existential threats to reality, or most of the horrible things that could happen, those are problems Garnet can solve. They are what drives her. Just about the only thing I could think of that could hit her worse is the death of Steven, Pearl, or Amethyst, and even that would just be a horrible thing, rather than a horrible thing that forces her to question deep held convictions and friendships. What happened here, a betrayal by her best friend, an attack on what she values more than just about anything, and a fight with herself, that hits the very core of Garnet's being.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2015-07-15 at 12:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    She does sometimes resort to violence when it's unnecessary, but that's a flaw of hers completely separate from her definitely existent strengths, and given that you also criticized Steven for resorting to not-violence, I'm not entirely sure how these characters can win with you.
    Everything has a time and a place. Steven doesn't act when he should, sometimes. Garnet tends to do the reverse. Everything in moderation.



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    Garnet's real problems are her relationship ones. Being kidnapped, or facing existential threats to reality, or most of the horrible things that could happen, those are problems Garnet can solve. They are what drives her. Just about the only thing I could think of that could hit her worse is the death of Steven, Pearl, or Amethyst, and even that would just be a horrible thing, rather than a horrible thing that forces her to question deep held convictions and friendships. What happened here, a betrayal by her best friend, an attack on what she values more than just about anything, and a fight with herself, that hits the very core of Garnet's being.
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    Which is where character comes in. This was a bad thing that happened, and how they reacted shows their character. Virtues and positive qualities are wasted on good moments, because they aren't for good moments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Everything has a time and a place. Steven doesn't act when he should, sometimes. Garnet tends to do the reverse. Everything in moderation.
    Well, yeah, but the problem is, while you know approximately what the time and place is, the characters mostly don't. You say that approaching Peridot was necessarily a mistake, but had Steven succeeded in his ill advised quest for diplomacy, then you probably would have been criticizing Garnet for trying to take too hard of an approach. Conversely, had the centipeedle actually been dangerous, you would likely toss that episode in the Steven acting in the wrong time and place category, as opposed to where you presumably have it now, which is Garnet being in that category. It strikes me as really results oriented thinking.

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    Which is where character comes in. This was a bad thing that happened, and how they reacted shows their character. Virtues and positive qualities are wasted on good moments, because they aren't for good moments.
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    Well, yeah. But sometimes the thing you're dealing with is too much for your virtues and positive qualities to handle. Garnet's virtues are what allowed her to bounce back from this problematic behavior with reasonable speed, and in that sense, she spent that virtue well. If anything, I suspect that Garnet's flaw in this scenario was holding in her feelings rather than codependency. She spends so much of her time holding things in that, when things go sufficiently wrong, she blows up so hard that it starts causing environmental problems. This flaw is reflected in the way she reacted to Pearl's majig in the direct sense, cutting off all communication instead of talking about it, and in the way that Sapphire retreated into her shell with regards to Ruby.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2015-07-15 at 12:51 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Well, yeah, but the problem is, while you know approximately what the time and place is, the characters mostly don't. You say that approaching Peridot was necessarily a mistake, but had Steven succeeded in his ill advised quest for diplomacy, then you probably would have been criticizing Garnet for trying to take too hard of an approach. Conversely, had the centipeedle actually been dangerous, you would likely toss that episode in the Steven acting in the wrong time and place category, as opposed to where you presumably have it now, which is Garnet being in that category. It strikes me as really results oriented thinking.
    Alright, lets get a couple of things clear.

    Steven approaching the Centipeedle was in fact, extremely dangerous. He had no real idea what it was or who it used to be and went in blind. If they'd bubbled it right there despite his protests I wouldn't have blamed the gems at all. Just as I don't blame them for demanding the mirror despite that working out in the end.

    Likewise, approaching Peridot was a bad idea and would have been so even if by some miracle it worked. The entire strength of their position until that point was that the enemy didn't know who was there, or if anyone was there, and what could possibly be affecting their drones. Steven pretty much blew that right to hell and the only reason they aren't all dead was because Yellow Diamond decided one guy was somehow enough to take on four.

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    Well, yeah. But sometimes the thing you're dealing with is too much for your virtues and positive qualities to handle. Garnet's virtues are what allowed her to bounce back from this problematic behavior with reasonable speed, and in that sense, she spent that virtue well. If anything, I suspect that Garnet's flaw in this scenario was holding in her feelings rather than codependency. She spends so much of her time holding things in that, when things go sufficiently wrong, she blows up so hard that it starts causing environmental problems. This flaw is reflected in the way she reacted to Pearl's majig in the direct sense, cutting off all communication instead of talking about it, and in the way that Sapphire retreated into her shell with regards to Ruby.
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    Garnet's flaw isn't codependency, that belongs to Ruby and Sapphire.

    Which is expressed in, you know, they having powers she lacks(flight, ice, fire), her evidently being less capable with future vision given she needs to pause where Sapphire doesn't, and Garnets being less valuable than Rubies or Sapphires.
    Last edited by Jayngfet; 2015-07-15 at 01:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Alright, lets get a couple of things clear.

    Steven approaching the Centipeedle was in fact, extremely dangerous. He had no real idea what it was or who it used to be and went in blind. If they'd bubbled it right there despite his protests I wouldn't have blamed the gems at all. Just as I don't blame them for demanding the mirror despite that working out in the end.

    Likewise, approaching Peridot was a bad idea and would have been so even if by some miracle it worked. The entire strength of their position until that point was that the enemy didn't know who was there, or if anyone was there, and what could possibly be affecting their drones. Steven pretty much blew that right to hell and the only reason they aren't all dead was because Yellow Diamond decided one guy was somehow enough to take on four.
    So then, what exactly are you criticizing Garnet for here? If Garnet was right to attack the centipeedle, and right to demand the mirror, and right to attempt to stop Steven from approaching Peridot, then when has Garnet favored violence when violence was unwarranted? Hell, she was the first of them to consider not resorting to violence when presented with the option in Marble Madness.

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    Garnet's flaw isn't codependency, that belongs to Ruby and Sapphire.

    Which is expressed in, you know, they having powers she lacks(flight, ice, fire), her evidently being less capable with future vision given she needs to pause where Sapphire doesn't, and Garnets being less valuable than Rubies or Sapphires.
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    But that doesn't seem to be Ruby or Sapphire's problem either. From all appearances, Ruby's main flaw seems to be that she has a temper, sometimes holding onto anger to her own detriment, and Sapphire's main flaw seems to be that she sometimes acts really cold and unsympathetic, bottling up her emotions. And I don't think you're necessarily right about Ruby and Sapphire being individually more powerful. We haven't really seen them actually fight, and Sapphire's uses of future vision were on incredibly immediate and mundane things. Aside from the fact that they really like being together, I haven't seen any evidence of codependency from them. They're just two flawed characters that sometimes act in a flawed way. Ruby's got gaps, Sapphire's got gaps, together they fill gaps.

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