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  1. - Top - End - #871
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Actually, di Grassi wrote that partisans, which he described as plain blades, were initially made to break the mail and divide the iron. That's all written historically, though; I'm not sure what to make of it. He gave specific techniques for cutting through pikes and breaking swords with edge blows from partisans, bills, and halberds. He didn't address blows against armor for his own period as far as I know, but he emphasized the power of cuts from these polearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giacomo di Grassi, 1594 English trans
    Therefore, these Partisans were made big and of great paize, and of perfect good steel, to the end they might break the mail and divide the Iron.

    And that this is true, it is to be seen in the ancient weapons of this sort, which are great and so well tempered, that they are of force to cut any other Iron.
    The part about tearing armor comes in relation to the motion "backward and toward himself," so it's not a pick-style blow.

    In contrast to di Grassi's description of older partisans, Fourquevaux wrote that even sturdy and well-made partisans could do no great deed against armored opponents.
    Last edited by Incanur; 2014-03-05 at 08:23 PM.
    Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
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  2. - Top - End - #872
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur View Post
    Actually, di Grassi wrote that partisans, which he described as plain blades, were initially made to break the mail and divide the iron. That's all written historically, though; I'm not sure what to make of it. He gave specific techniques for cutting through pikes and breaking swords with edge blows from partisans, bills, and halberds. He didn't address blows against armor for his own period as far as I know, but he emphasized the power of cuts from these polearms.



    The part about tearing armor comes in relation to the motion "backward and toward himself," so it's not a pick-style blow.

    In contrast to di Grassi's description of older partisans, Fourquevaux wrote that even sturdy and well-made partisans could do no great deed against armored opponents.
    Well that's because partisans come in both side-spiked and non side-spiked verisons, but if Di Grassi is writing about his own time, or 100 years earlier in the 15th Century, the spiked kind are not at all unusual.

    An anecdote about a general idea however isn't the same as a specific fencing manual telling you how to use a weapon. When it comes to the couple of dozen or so manuals which actually do tell you how to use polearms, the techniques they recommend and demonstrate are nothing to do with hacking through armor, they are either depicting thrusts with points (front spike, queue, or back spike) into armor, or unprotected faces, or more often, using the polearm as a lever to trip, control, or throw the opponent down to the ground where they can be more easily finished off.


















    G

  3. - Top - End - #873
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    I'm skeptical that any partisans have spikes suitable for doing anything to armor. The partisan pictured in the Italian version of di Grassi's text has very small forward curving wings at the base. Many earlier partisans and langue-de-boeuf (ox-tongue) spears spears have no wings at all. I've never examined the wings on a period partisan up close, but I doubt there's anything to indicate they were for pick-style blow against armor. (Some halberd back spikes, front spikes, and blades apparently show signs of reinforcement.) I must say I'm impressed by your creativity; the idea of partisan wings as armor piercers has certainly never occurred to me before.

    By the way, many 15th- and 16th-century glaives, partisans, and such like weapons have nothing that could possibility be considered armor-piercing spikes. The vouge francais would be one example.
    Last edited by Incanur; 2014-03-05 at 09:43 PM.
    Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
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  4. - Top - End - #874
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    That's because most of those are spear-like weapons with a sharp point for stabbing with ;)

    I'm not being "creative" kid, you and I aren't playing the same game - I've studied medieval weapons for 15 years.

    I don't expect anybody to agree with me, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think it's cool however, to pretend you have some kind of grip on specific period data when you actually don't. Maybe I'm wrong and you just developed outlier opinions. Outlier opinions matter too, because the mainstream isn't always right. But you shouldn't mis-represent the actual data. There are too many cliché's out there already, we don't need to invent more of them.

    It doesn't matter what any of our opinions or guesses are, the data is the only thing that is real. In 15 years of doing HEMA, I've seen many interpretations come and go, the body of data gradually grows and becomes clearer - the gamer memes and rpg tropes fade a little bit more. And we can begin to understand the fascinating world of our ancestors.


    Anyway, I have seen and handled a few medieval weapons. One thing I noticed about polearms in particular, is they have certain characteristics - two specific ones come to mind right away: Sharp Point. Think of two words when you look at these images.
















    That one, third from the left there, is a partisan incidentally




    Now why do you think they put so much effort into putting a sharp point on such a wide variety of killing implements, some of which I don't even think have names?

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    The winged spears in your images resemble the spiedo in one of the illustrations for di Grassi's manual. Di Grassi considered the spiedo only suitable for the thrust. The wings serve to catch opposing weapons.

    As discussed, based on Paulus Kal, di Grassi, etc., the back spikes on halberds and company have been primarily for hooking and tearing. They're presumably useful, but that doesn't imply they're for pick-style blows against armor, much less that period warriors preferred the back spike to the blade or hammer head.

    As far as your posturing goes, I plan to continue to share my understanding of period sources as convenient. I image we'll keep arguing on and off in perpetuity.
    Last edited by Incanur; 2014-03-06 at 08:43 AM.
    Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    I'd like to mention that not all points are made equal. Some of those wouldn't be suited for penetrating heavy armour. The heavy usage of some of them would suggest roles which didn't involve heavy armour, or that they were able to avoid the armour effectively.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    This seems to always comeback too similar place indeed:

    - what about numerous amount of weapons with spikes that are obviously unsuitable for 'hooking' anything at all, because they are way too short?

    Not to mention skulls, from battle of Towton for example, which have quite decisively 'spike' shaped holes.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Well you can lead a horse to water, but ...

    I'll just summarize my position so we can move on.

    None of the fightbooks suggest that you can pierce armor with the blade, including the passage the kid posted. Di Grassi is clearly saying that the back-spike is for piercing armor. The rest of the interpretation is what incanur thinks is 'implied'.

    Halberds are dual-purpose, flesh cleaving and armor-piercing weapons. They, like most polearms, always have a sharp point for armor-piercing. All of those weapons you see above have that sharp point, either on the tip, or on the back-spike, or both. You can't see it in those photo's but also typically on the queue or butt of the weapon as well.

    As Spiryt noted, the forensic evidence strongly suggests pierced skulls with back-spikes (I've seen a few of these myself at Kutna Hora), and severed arms and legs with blades.

    The signature of the halberd or poll axe spike also shows up in armor



    The engineering tests done by Alan Williams, the Royal Armories at Leeds etc. also make it pretty clear that the front and back-spikes can puncture armor while the blade really can't with the amount of force that a human can deliver.

    This is also born out by combat sports such as bohurt, where there is basically no restriction on striking the armored fighters with the blade, but back-spikes and thrusting are banned.

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    I was actually searching for this helmet indeed - there are few more, I think, and in general, it seems that if anything like that poor, tired 'armor penetration' was even occurring 'normally', it was from 'spikes' of all kind.

    Obviously spikes being extremely broad, and border between 'spike' 'hammer' or general '


    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5302/5...f7836de7_o.jpg

    Some spikes that are hard to imagine hooking anything:





    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7608866372
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2014-03-06 at 11:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    I was curious about the 4 pronged hammer bits in the last pic of all the spiky things.

    Why are they splayed outwards? To me that seems like it would diffuse the force of the blow? It seems intentional, so it should have some purpose.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    After a quick search, the best I could find for swords harming helmets and plate was one test that seemingly left a couple of reasonable gashes on a kabuto. I don't think it would have hurt the wearer, other than from blunt force. Blades really aren't an effective weapon against plate armour (few things are).

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    I was curious about the 4 pronged hammer bits in the last pic of all the spiky things.

    Why are they splayed outwards? To me that seems like it would diffuse the force of the blow? It seems intentional, so it should have some purpose.
    My guess is that it makes a blow 'stick' a bit better. Against a curved surface, a spike has a tendency to want to skitter off. Setting the spikes somewhat outwards may have acted (or been thought to act) to put a brake on that action.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Back spike in action, in the hands of the mayor of Zurich, 1443 AD



    Notice the guy who is trying to get him is stabbing with the point, while another guy a little lower is using the blade, but his intended victim has lost his helmet so - evil intent or not, he's probably going to die when that blade strikes his head.

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    I was curious about the 4 pronged hammer bits in the last pic of all the spiky things.

    Why are they splayed outwards? To me that seems like it would diffuse the force of the blow? It seems intentional, so it should have some purpose.
    Are you talking about this?





    If so, then it may as well be purely decorational - polearms of all kinds quickly became guard, convoy, palace etc. weapons.

    Pure efficacy obviously wasn't that important, especially not in battlefield sense, the important thing was that guards could whack and stab someone.

    So it may be hard/impossible to tell how and what for things served.

    Obviously not all palatial weapons had straight out looked like those:

    Spoiler
    Show




    OR it could indeed serve to hook and control stuff in few ways. Who knows.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2014-03-06 at 11:57 AM.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    I think he was referring to the four prongs or points you often used on war hammers. idont think those are decorative, I don't think anyone knows the purpose for sure but gaining purchase on slippery armor seems like a pretty good guess to me

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    I think he was referring to the four prongs or points you often used on war hammers. idont think those are decorative, I don't think anyone knows the purpose for sure but gaining purchase on slippery armor seems like a pretty good guess to me

    G
    I could also see it being of use to correct for misalignment of the weapon in the hand. Having the spikes face a bit outward would, if the hammer was angled one way or another relative to the armor's surface, tend to keep the spikes closer to perpendicular.
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    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    Well you can lead a horse to water, but ...

    I'll just summarize my position so we can move on.

    None of the fightbooks suggest that you can pierce armor with the blade, including the passage the kid posted. Di Grassi is clearly saying that the back-spike is for piercing armor. The rest of the interpretation is what incanur thinks is 'implied'.

    Halberds are dual-purpose, flesh cleaving and armor-piercing weapons. They, like most polearms, always have a sharp point for armor-piercing. All of those weapons you see above have that sharp point, either on the tip, or on the back-spike, or both. You can't see it in those photo's but also typically on the queue or butt of the weapon as well.

    As Spiryt noted, the forensic evidence strongly suggests pierced skulls with back-spikes (I've seen a few of these myself at Kutna Hora), and severed arms and legs with blades.

    The signature of the halberd or poll axe spike also shows up in armor



    The engineering tests done by Alan Williams, the Royal Armories at Leeds etc. also make it pretty clear that the front and back-spikes can puncture armor while the blade really can't with the amount of force that a human can deliver.

    This is also born out by combat sports such as bohurt, where there is basically no restriction on striking the armored fighters with the blade, but back-spikes and thrusting are banned.

    G

    Thanks.

    This seems to confirm what I've suspected, that spikes can punch through armor give the right conditions. I've yet to see anything that looks like a blade cutting armor.
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  18. - Top - End - #888
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    None of the fightbooks suggest that you can pierce armor with the blade, including the passage the kid posted. Di Grassi is clearly saying that the back-spike is for piercing armor.
    This is a curious reading to say that least. Di Grassi repeatedly mentioned cutting armor with polearm blades. I'm skeptical of this myself, but it's in the text. See here for the Italian: "smagliare et dividere il ferro" and "tagliar l’altro ferro." The line about tearing armor ("stracciar l’armi") again refers to backward motion toward the wielder. I recommend intellectual honesty.

    They, like most polearms, always have a sharp point for armor-piercing.
    Note that earlier halberds, including some pictured in 15th-century artwork, lack a back spike, beak or hook.

    The signature of the halberd or poll axe spike also shows up in armor
    Do you have the details on the helm pictured? I'm curious where it was found, etc.

    The engineering tests done by Alan Williams, the Royal Armories at Leeds etc. also make it pretty clear that the front and back-spikes can puncture armor while the blade really can't with the amount of force that a human can deliver.
    What tests do you mean? Where did Williams test polearms against armor? According to Williams's numbers, a quality breastplate or helmet might take 300-400 J to pierce with an arrow if it hit absolutely perpendicular. If we use the same figure for a polearm top or back pike - and it shouldn't be less - that's a lot of energy to deliver. Williams doesn't provide kinetic energy measurements for polearm swings from what I recall. He gives conjectural numbers that don't get up to 300 J. Assuming a person can deliver more energy with a swung pick-style blow, that strikes me as more likely to pierce armor than a thrust with the top spike. In the 16th century, both Fourquevaux and de la Noue considered even couched lances extremely unlikely to penetrate the armor of men-at-arms. (Fourquevaux went so far as to write that aiming the heavy lance an opposing man-at-arms would have been a waste of time, though other 16th-century sources did instruct targeting the armored rider.)

    For reference, a light arrow from a 150lb English warbow might deliver 110 J up close and a very heavy one 150 J. A underarm dagger thrust from a reasonably strong and skilled combatant might deliver 60 J, while an overarm stab from the same might might deliver 115 J.

    I'm certainly not arguing that back spikes were never used to pierce armor; to the contrary, I provided a source for such use for cavalry axes and hammers (Massario via Sydney Anglo). I am arguing that various sources indicate the effectiveness of polearm blades against helmet and various sources show hooking and tearing maneuvers with back spikes or hooks. I suspect some back spikes might do well in pick-style bows, but others don't seem suited for it. There's spotty and conflicting evidence, but at the moment I speculate that swinging with a reinforced back spike, while certainly more likely to actually penetrate armor, would probably disarm the wielder if successful because the weapon would get stuck - this may be why Massario wrote that cavalry axes and hammers saw more use in personal fighting - and would require careful placement and alignment. On the battlefield, using the blade most or some of the time may have been superior. Many polearms with back spikes have blades opposite that weigh considerably more, making blows feel better with blade in my experience (with an A&A English Bill).

    Also remember that in testing of a late-period halberd against 16th-century munitions-grade harness, the halberd's blade failed to do much of anything to the helmet while a blow with the beak or back spike penetrated. A thrust with top spike also penetrated the breastplate. Based on Williams, the best armor (hardened steel) performs three times better than the the worst (slaggy wrought iron), so it may have been possible to pierce low-quality harness but not the good stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    I was actually searching for this helmet indeed - there are few more, I think, and in general, it seems that if anything like that poor, tired 'armor penetration' was even occurring 'normally', it was from 'spikes' of all kind.
    The tricky thing about such artifacts is that we have no way of knowing how the damage happened. It could have been in battle, it could have been a test, it could have been thrusts and/or swung blows against an already prone foe, etc. I'd like more info about the piece, as mentioned above.
    Last edited by Incanur; 2014-03-06 at 08:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Incanur
    I recommend intellectual honesty.
    Given that you feel that I'm not being intellectually honest, I think there is little advantage in our directly engaging on this issue further. To discuss such matters in detail requires a certain degree of mutual respect. I've said my peace on it, I think we've spent enough of the bandwidth here debating the issue. Readers of the thread have sufficient information to decide for themselves at this point.

    G

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    and it shouldn't be less
    Actually, it should for all we know.

    Arrow is very light, has no momentum compared to polearm, is less sectionally dense, plenty of energy's going to be wasted on shaking, and very probably breaking of shaft as well.

    Halberd with thick haft, hands firmly on it etc. is going to have way less 'wastage'.

    It's obviously hard to calculate from the lack of sources, but the difference is obvious.

    heavy lance an opposing man-at-arms
    Likewise, lance's way less stiff, and likely to in fact break under more significant impact.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Actually, it should for all we know.

    Arrow is very light, has no momentum compared to polearm, is less sectionally dense, plenty of energy's going to be wasted on shaking, and very probably breaking of shaft as well.

    Halberd with thick haft, hands firmly on it etc. is going to have way less 'wastage'.

    It's obviously hard to calculate from the lack of sources, but the difference is obvious.
    Further to Spiryt's point, I think Knight and the Blast Furance suggests that ~200J are required to pierce armour with a melee weapon, which Williams indicates is just about possible with a very strong person.

    Energy is not a particularly reliable indicator for armour penetration - modern firearms have very high energy values, but their penetration is often nowhere near as good as would be indicated.
    For example, Cold War era soviet body armour apparently consisted of 2mm steel plates, which could not be penetrated reliable at 125 yards by 9mm rounds.
    Extrapolating the ballistics data for a Federal 9mm 124 grain Hydra-Shock JHP, it would have 250 ft.lbs (~339J) at 125 yards, or about triple that of a light arrow at ~20 yards (I think that was the range tested by Willams).

    Edit: I knew this all sounded familiar: from the 12th version of this thread.
    So it appears that a bodkin arrow is better at penetrating mail than a halberd edge or lance point.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2014-03-07 at 03:51 AM. Reason: Corrected accuracy

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Lead bullets against a hard target lose a significant amount of their energy due to deformation.


    A bodkin arrow point is more efficient than a lance, but it tends to have less energy behind it overall.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Are you talking about this?


    Ah no. As already suggested it was the hammer parts. Last picture of G's post #874. The warhammers (?) all have what is clearly intended as armour piercing spike/beak on the back, or front, how does one know which is supposed to be front/back really?

    The whole sticking to curved surfaces sounds very plausible. However what I do wonder is if the hammer side is really meant for plate armour penetration. The hammers have that nifty backspike. Could be more for lighter armour?
    Because looking at how they are angled I can't see anyway that they would effectively transmit piercing force.
    Some hammers do have a hammer head which has the penetration parts arranged in a way that I can see would support piercing. Like the halberd(?), first weapon in the same pic.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by rrgg View Post
    Lead bullets against a hard target lose a significant amount of their energy due to deformation.
    Most of modern bullets have jacket of some, usually relatively soft, but not nearly lead soft metal, though.


    A bodkin arrow point is more efficient than a lance, but it tends to have less energy behind it overall.
    Ummmm, how so?

    Most proper lances of that time were 5 pounds + wooden pillars ending with a point that often was not that far away from arrow sized....

    Can't see how arrow could possibly have a chance of being more efficient TBH.
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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    The warhammers (?) all have what is clearly intended as armour piercing spike/beak on the back, or front, how does one know which is supposed to be front/back really?
    I think convention puts the flatter 'hammer' part as the front in keeping with halberds which have the blade at the 'front' and a back spike.

    I suspect the weight balance of the head would be somewhat skewed (I haven't handled a warhammer, so could be very wrong), which would also influence the front/back decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    The whole sticking to curved surfaces sounds very plausible. However what I do wonder is if the hammer side is really meant for plate armour penetration. The hammers have that nifty backspike. Could be more for lighter armour?
    It could be for setting the person up for a more lethal strike with the penetrating parts - hit them with the flat part that would transmit force more effectively due to increased surface area which then opens up an opportunity to stab them in an armour gap or weak spot with either the tip or the back spike.

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    Default Re: Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. XIV

    While blades can't necessarily stun anyone in good armor (at least not very easily or efficiently) hammers and maces I believe, can. Or at any rate, it's much more efficient. How that four-prong type of hammer works precisely isn't clear, I don't think any serious test have been done yet, but I suspect it does deliver a pretty good impact, especially on the thinner armor say, on the side of the head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Ummmm, how so?

    Most proper lances of that time were 5 pounds + wooden pillars ending with a point that often was not that far away from arrow sized....

    Can't see how arrow could possibly have a chance of being more efficient TBH.
    I don't remember the specifics about what sort of lance head and bodkin The Knight and the Blast Furnace was testing. It may have been something larger like a spearhead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglaich View Post
    While blades can't necessarily stun anyone in good armor (at least not very easily or efficiently) hammers and maces I believe, can. Or at any rate, it's much more efficient. How that four-prong type of hammer works precisely isn't clear, I don't think any serious test have been done yet, but I suspect it does deliver a pretty good impact, especially on the thinner armor say, on the side of the head.

    G
    What do you mean by "more efficient"? That a blunt object would hurt more than a blade if given one the same impact energy, or that hammers and maces have an easier time hitting harder in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rrgg View Post
    What do you mean by "more efficient"? That a blunt object would hurt more than a blade if given one the same impact energy, or that hammers and maces have an easier time hitting harder in the first place?
    I'm not sure I'd call a warhammer like those under discussion blunt. Most of them look profoundly pointy, which would give them a smaller contact area than an edged weapon. That in turn for equivalent force would generate higher pressures, and probably do more harm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Actually, it should for all we know.

    Arrow is very light, has no momentum compared to polearm, is less sectionally dense, plenty of energy's going to be wasted on shaking, and very probably breaking of shaft as well.

    Halberd with thick haft, hands firmly on it etc. is going to have way less 'wastage'.

    It's obviously hard to calculate from the lack of sources, but the difference is obvious.
    Williams used drop tests with steel shapes resembling an arrowhead, a blade section, a lancehead, and a spherical bullet. As I understand it they don't take into account any of the factors you just mentioned. Energy figures from drop tests only approximate the performance of arrows against armors, but the weight of the evidence I've seen suggests they're a decent guide. What I'm saying as that polearm points aren't typically any thinner than the the arrowhead shape Williams tested, so they should require at least as much energy. The lancehead tested required more than the arrow to penetrate any given thickness.

    Likewise, lance's way less stiff, and likely to in fact break under more significant impact.
    I don't know that the heavy lances used with lance rests by men-at-arms were any less stiff than halberds. These were specifically designed to hit as hard against other men-at-arms as possible; various folks who used heavy lances dismissed lighter lances as too flimsy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Further to Spiryt's point, I think Knight and the Blast Furance suggests that ~200J are required to pierce armour with a melee weapon, which Williams indicates is just about possible with a very strong person.
    That's for a cutting blade against mail and quilted jack. To pierce 2mm hardened steel plus light padding with an arrowhead requires over 300 J. The tops of historical helmets were often over 2 mm, though this of course varied.

    I don't know of any solid studies of energy delivered by polearm blows or thrusts. Golf club and baseball bat swings by professional athletes appear to get to 200-300 J and possible over, so I wouldn't be surprised if a swung blow with an reinforced polearm back spike from a strong wielder could pierce a helmet, assuming ideal conditions. I'm not sure how easy it'd be to accomplish in practice.

    While I think energy works well as an approximation for armor penetration, it's not a good metric for blunt trauma, which is more about momentum.

    Energy is not a particularly reliable indicator for armour penetration - modern firearms have very high energy values, but their penetration is often nowhere near as good as would be indicated.
    As described by Williams, the required energy varies by projectile shape, with (historical) bullets requiring much more energy. Some modern armor-piercing bullets, however, seem to perform perform as well as or better than Williams's arrowhead, though. Even the basic modern military tested for reference in the Graz armoury blackpower weapons tests did reasonably well against steel. It really depends on the round.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Can't see how arrow could possibly have a chance of being more efficient TBH.
    It's simply because it's smaller.
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