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  1. - Top - End - #931
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Just a random thought, but...

    We know that in the 12 gods there is a monkey and a dragon, but I wonder if one of them could be a cat.
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    The 12 Gods are the creatures of the Chinese Zodiac. Dragon, Monkey, Serpent, Ox, Sheep, Tiger, Rat, Dog, Rooster, Horse, Pig, and Rabbit.

    There is an anime, however, that postulates a 13th zodiacal sign, and that's the Cat.
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  3. - Top - End - #933
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    just got to see this.

    Welcome to Hell Miko!!!

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  4. - Top - End - #934
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Poor Mr. Scruffy, check his expression the last panel.

    Anyone seeing a true face-off with Miko and Roy, considering the latter has his sword now? Belkar will probably either stab her when it's most appropriete(causing her death) or end of stalling Hinjo from taking any sides.

  5. - Top - End - #935
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    2.) Willingly embracing evil is exactly the thing she wouldn't do. Besides, she'd have to gain a level first before she could become a blackguard. As for the level trade thing, she'd have to consciously make that decision which, again, is completely out of character for her.
    She wouldn't? Everybody in this room is evil!! that skeleton guy is attacking everyone in this room, he must be good!

    As far as the level thing, how much xp for toppling the government by killing the 14th level king of 1/2 milion people???
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  6. - Top - End - #936
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by baerdith View Post
    She wouldn't? Everybody in this room is evil!! that skeleton guy is attacking everyone in this room, he must be good!

    As far as the level thing, how much xp for toppling the government by killing the 14th level king of 1/2 milion people???
    Um, she thinks they're evil because they're supposedly working for the skeleton guy.

    I've personally already answered this a while back: He's a CR 13 encounter, (14 if he uses the Elite Array).

  7. - Top - End - #937
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfryd View Post
    That's not actually true. Bletchley Park?
    *googles* Is there something evil about code-breaking that I don't know about? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

    Or were you disagreeing with "it never works in the end"? "The end" can be a long time - certainly evil can appear to be effective in the short run. (Where, again, 'short' can be longer than one might expect.) But since evil is just twisted, distorted good, it can't possibly be more effective in the final analysis.

    Regicide seems no more intrisically evil to me than homocide.
    Totally agreed.

    Theoretically, she could still atone, which could be very good for her. If she goes Blackguard, I, for one, will definitely modify my sig.
    Me too. Miko as a Blackguard would cease to be a likable individual. (Still an interesting character, mind, but not suitable to be a 'fan' of, as far as I'm concerned.)
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    hey, What if a Miko-Roy & Belkar-Xykon& Army clash happened? Moko would summon her horse, Belkar would kill it, then attack the army, Roy would attack and possibly kill Miko, then They both face Xykon.
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  9. - Top - End - #939
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Having just read all 32 pages of posts... I'm tired.

    Seriously though, people who don't believe in objective morality disgust me. There are some things that are just wrong. I'm not going to go as far as to say that everything is intrinsicly right or wrong, there is still room for shades of grey in objective morality. Killing an old man is not always wrong. Killing a defenseless old man where imprisoning him would work just as well is evil. If the magistrates are just as culpable, have a tribunal of paladins try him. Honestly, there are ways around it other than cutting him in half.

    And saying that no human can judge another human is BS of the worst kind. If we can't judge others, then how would society function? If the only person capable of bringing a murderer to justice is himself, then what's to stop him from killing everyone? Personally, judging others is the foundation upon everything we do. If you disagree with someone, you are inherantly judging their oppinion to be false. If you like someone, you judge them to be worth your interest. The trick to being a good person is holding yourself to the same standards that you hold everyone else.


    I agree with all plot theories that end with Miko either A) dying soon (like, within the next two weeks), or B) becoming a blackguard.

    I also think that the Giant will spite us by having Monday's comic focus on Xykon instead of concluding the current situation. But then again, he's been pretty good about only doing cutaways when it doesn't interfere with the flow of a story...

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MReav View Post
    Um, she thinks they're evil because they're supposedly working for the skeleton guy.
    Yes she think Xykon is evil but what would she think about the 3 people that Shojo and the OOTS were gonna put in prison without a trial? Not to mention that she is already «taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imaginated slight» which is all you really need to join the Linear Guild...well that and being an opposite to someone in the OOTS (Belkar).
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Querzis View Post
    Yes she think Xykon is evil but what would she think about the 3 people that Shojo and the OOTS were gonna put in prison without a trial? Not to mention that she is already «taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imaginated slight» which is all you really need to join the Linear Guild...well that and being an opposite to someone in the OOTS (Belkar).
    I don't exactly think Miko buys into the whole "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude. She was more than willing to take out the bandits despite their attempted mind controlling and killing of her, and then went after the OotS without changing her attitude, still believing them evil and dangerous.

  12. - Top - End - #942
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread


    Didn't see that one coming
    Great as always Giant
    To Be Continued...

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MReav View Post
    I don't exactly think Miko buys into the whole "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude. She was more than willing to take out the bandits despite their attempted mind controlling and killing of her, and then went after the OotS without changing her attitude, still believing them evil and dangerous.
    You are forgetting Nale incredible bluff and the fact that, as soon as the rest of the OOTS come back, she is gonna get killed without help. I dont actually want her to join the Linear Guild since I love the Linear Guild and hate Miko but it seems like its the next logical step. Beside, its really just about «Taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slight» like she just did. Its the Linear Guild motto and she would be just a way too good opposite for Belkar.
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  14. - Top - End - #944
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Querzis View Post
    You are forgetting Nale incredible bluff and the fact that, as soon as the rest of the OOTS come back, she is gonna get killed without help. I dont actually want her to join the Linear Guild since I love the Linear Guild and hate Miko but it seems like its the next logical step. Beside, its really just about «Taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slight» like she just did. Its the Linear Guild motto and she would be just a way too good opposite for Belkar.
    But there's the fiend in the party and the fact that they're going to have to keep their murderous tendencies to a minimum while she's around, since she'll turn on them the second they act out of line. Nale may have a good bluff score, but he's got atrocious self control.

    That being said, I can see Nale attempting to approach her and give her the pitch.

    And for some reason, V will be Scrying on them for the resulting aftermath.
    Last edited by MReav; 2007-01-28 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    I read up to page 18 before I got bored, so if I've missed stuff, forgive me.

    To be honest, I'll be very surprised if Miko doesn't become a blackguard. The stage has been set practically perfectly, and as we all know the Giant doesn't have things happen randomly. Everything is carefully crafted and refined well in advance.
    Look at the requirements: Monk takes care of the hide prereq, and knowledge:religion? She's a freakin' paladin/monk. If she doesn't I'd want to know why.
    Power Attack? Fairly sure that she's used that, and Cleave is a common enough feat inkeeping with maximising attacks. Improved Sunder would make sense for the breaking of Hayley's bow and chopping through the throne.
    Evil? She's slipping very close to it here - if not already - whether she thinks it or not, and you could argue that this is just the cherry on the top of the many other things she's done.
    Lastly, as lots of people have said already, there's an outsider below her at this very instant who would be happy to help her.

    You honestly think this has just come about by chance? In OoTS??
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  16. - Top - End - #946
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    This is superb.

    It was Australia Day over here, so I didn't get to comment until today, so I am really late coming to this. I'll be honest, and admit that I am not going to read through the whole 27 pages of comments, so forgive me if I am stating things that have gone before, but:

    Miko hasn't committed a necessarily evil act, nor an Unlawful one. She already outlined her own justification, in some detail, so I won't bother going over it, but safe to say she believes all she says.

    After all, all these things are matters of perspective: can you punish someone for committing a crime if they truly thought they were not, but instead were protecting a whole bunch of innocents?

    Then again, this is a world of absolutist good and evil, law and chaos, isn't it? Hmm... then again, Rich has shown us that he is flexible on such issues, and believes that even in a world of absolute, defined good and evil, characters should be flexible too.

    No, this is what I think will happen:
    Spoiler
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    Miko will not lose her Palidin abilities, but will be the commander of the city diring the upcoming seige. Then, in a final confrontation with Xykon and (importantly) Redcloak, will have it revealed to her by them how badly she screwed up. Then she will really snap - possibly lose her powers - but end up being the one who sacrifices herself to destroy the Gate.

    Hmm, then again, it might be more delicious to have her survive.... Still destroy it, but live to contemplate her actions.
    Spong.

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalenthas View Post
    And saying that no human can judge another human is BS of the worst kind. If we can't judge others, then how would society function? If the only person capable of bringing a murderer to justice is himself, then what's to stop him from killing everyone?
    Are you referring to me? Though I did say that one can't judge the final destiny of any human being, I also explicitly did say we can, should, and must judge their actions. Which can include judging that they need to be punished for them. Society can't survive without controlling dangerous, violent people.

    But none of us knows the heart of another person; we can't know for certain what they're going through. For that reason we cannot judge their ultimate degree of culpability for their evil actions. (Or credit for their good ones, for that matter.)

    As a practical matter, we can decide that they are dangerous and likely to continue to be; that they need to be locked up. But we shouldn't in the process arrogate to ourselves the ability to judge them with finality, to write them off forever.

    Personally, judging others is the foundation upon everything we do. If you disagree with someone, you are inherantly judging their oppinion to be false.
    You don't see the disconnect between those two sentences? I judge opinions as true or false all the time. But that doesn't mean I have to judge the people who hold them - as stupid or whatever.

    Sometimes I do, of course. But I consider that a failing to be overcome, not a given to rest in.

    If you like someone, you judge them to be worth your interest.
    No, not in the least, at least as far as I'm concerned. Feelings come and go. Of course, like anyone else, I want to spend time around the people I feel a liking toward.

    But that's not because I've judged them to be worth my interest. My experience is that if I *treat* someone as worth my interest, I start to like them.

    I hope one day to reach the point where I treat *everyone* as worth my interest and time and concern. Of course, having only a finite amount of time, I can't actually spend it equally on everyone I meet.

    But I hope to be *open* to everyone I meet, and to spend my time where it will do the most good, not where my feelings prompt me. Or to be more precise, I hope to train my feelings so that they prompt me to do what is right, rather than what flatters me or appeals to me upon first impression.

    Oh, and someone upthread (I can't seem to find it again) said that Miko never experienced 'the feelings' of goodness, kindness, compassion, mercy, love, and so on. I can't stress enough that none of those things is a feeling - they aren't things you feel, they are things you DO.

    If they were feelings, it would be impossible to be good, kind, compassionate, merciful, and loving when one didn't feel like it. And it very plainly is possible. Feelings can support virtue or hinder it, but they do not constitute it.

    The trick to being a good person is holding yourself to the same standards that you hold everyone else.
    That's a big part of the trick, I agree. I would not agree it's the whole shebang, though.
    Last edited by The Shadow; 2007-01-28 at 06:13 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #948
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_master View Post
    hey, What if a Miko-Roy & Belkar-Xykon& Army clash happened? Moko would summon her horse, Belkar would kill it, then attack the army, Roy would attack and possibly kill Miko, then They both face Xykon.
    Miko will likely fall, and that means she will no longer be able to get the "Windstriker I choose you!" to work. No horse killing for Belkar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iranon
    Paladins take an ends-justify-means approach under circumstances that require immediate action.
    Not when it's a gross violation of their code of conduct they don't. And not when there's ample time to lock up the accused and sort things out later.
    Quote Originally Posted by AyuVince
    ...all she needs is to lose her powers so she can realize she did something wrong. Hopefully.
    Oh, this will either make or break Miko as a force for good. If she even acknowledges her fall, she will be obliged to re-evaluate her whole method of going about her LG business. If she deludes herself that she did not Fall, or that she remains justified in spite of losing paladin status, then she'll effectively have passed the point of no return.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malachite
    You honestly think this has just come about by chance? In OoTS??
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadow
    Is there something evil about code-breaking that I don't know about? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
    Oh, nothing in itself, but deliberately declining to use information gained from code-breaking and, in the process, allowing thousands of soldiers to die, in order to avoid informing the enemy that you've broken his cypher is definitely Chaotic. Which was done on several occasions during the war.
    They also allowed allied ships to come under attack wthout warning in order to gain more information on enemy attack broadcasts.
    But it worked. They reckon Bletchley Park shortened the war by two years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalenthas
    I also think that the Giant will spite us by having Monday's comic focus on Xykon instead of concluding the current situation.
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Well first off to Delanthas sorry to disgust you but I simply don't believe in objective morality there is no fundamental good or evil in our universe and subjective works just fine or a society if a majority agree's action A is good then action A for that society is good and anyone who opposes it is evil and should be punished (in simple terms). That's all I will say on the subject even if you reply as I've already gone dangerously close to violating the sites rules.

    Secondly as I've said before the Paladins are oathbound not to interfere with the other gates so the trial about the OOTS weakening the fabric of reality is dicey at best. I think the whole thing was actually inspired by Roy's dad rather than an actual celestial/law anyway as a pretext to get the OOTS there. Not to mention the gate Elan destroyed was actually the 2nd gate to fall and both are pretty much a result of Xykan's actions anyway.

    Even is Shojo was guilty Miko acted outside her authority in delivering a summary execution without trial for an example of a sane paladins response look at Hinjo. Yes Shojo might have contingency plans and a secret army of deadly assasins at his beck and call (although where they were when he was threatened is a good question) but a Paladin is supposed to show mercy and compassion neither of which Miko demonstrated when killing an unarmed old man who had said twice that everything he did was done for the sake of the city.

    A paladin as ruler has its advantages and disadvantages it would all rather depend on who your neighbours were I guess.

    Miko may not have known whether or not Samantha had more powerful spells up her sleave but look at the circumstances. First off Samantha and her dad were badly injured (blood on their clothes) and tied up implying they'd already been defeated once and were probably not at their best. Second all dad did was draw his swords and say you killed my daughter (not even a prepare to die) when she summarily executed him as well. Sure he was evil but I think those are pretty common actions when someones just killed a family member.

    To Iranon if Miko dropped out of Lawful good on any axis it would lose her her paladin powers by the raw and frankly I personally think she's more Lawful Neutral than Neutral Good.

    Miko can't summon her horse if she looses her paladin abilities over this.

    Miko pretty much did commit an unlawful act killing her rightful liege lord and commanding officer without trial. Look at Hinjo "Miko the law say's" or her response "The laws are meaningless." No I think it safe to say she's abandoned the laws of the land for her own warped idea of what the gods want. And yes I think you can punish someone for a crime even if they thought they were protecting innocents if they willingly break the law against the advice of an/nother apointed representive in doing so there's a reason people are tried to see if they're innocent even if those trials don't always work.

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Senko View Post
    Miko may not have known whether or not Samantha had more powerful spells up her sleave but look at the circumstances. First off Samantha and her dad were badly injured (blood on their clothes) and tied up implying they'd already been defeated once and were probably not at their best. Second all dad did was draw his swords and say you killed my daughter (not even a prepare to die) when she summarily executed him as well. Sure he was evil but I think those are pretty common actions when someones just killed a family member.
    He actually attacked, but missed her (the whoosh is kinda hard to see, but it was there).

    My question is: why didn't the OotS take his swords as loot?

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    She's not going to atone. Rich isn't the sort to just let her have a sudden epiphany and then send her out on an atonement quest which we never see. For her to atone, we would have to follow Miko's quest, and then the comic ceases being The Order of the Stick and becomes the Redemption of Miko Miyazaki.

    If she does not atone, she remains an antagonist of our heroes, which is the role she belongs in. If her zealotry becomes sufficiently twisted that she becomes a blackguard, she's a credible threat, a quality she lacks as a Fighter without Bonus Feats, or even as a 'skilled Warrior.'
    Thank you. That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to, as I said in another thread.
    But you said it more succinctly.
    Last edited by Mr Teufel; 2007-01-28 at 07:42 PM. Reason: add thought.
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    really enjoyed the take on the Paladin going nuts....
    but whilst to our unbiased eye we see this act as very much chaotic and evil, to Miko, it was a just and right act, where she smited the evil rular of en empire that he controlled unjustly. So from a "roleplaying" point of view she was acting within her alignment at least in her mind she was. Irrelevant whether the act itself was good or evil, she was trying to uphold the law in a system she saw as flawed. A system that would allow that very evil to get away with whatever prior actino it took.

    None-the-less i expect her to fall (not to blackgaurd though, that seems stupid - she IS still trying to do good in her very small mind) although i don't necessarily thinks she HAS to fall, as i believe she is under the impression that she is doing the rigth thing by her good and her beliefs, and hence why she may remain a paladin, despite the cou-de-gra on the king, and the subsequent fight against the OotS and the son.

    Oh hurrah... wonderful story, well created, and good use of the LG judge and jury paladin!

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybaster View Post

    Frankly, Miko's chances are better than Anakin's to resist falling to evil --- she's not in love with Roy :P --- but she's halfway there, as Obi-Wan said: "Only the Sith deals in absolutes".
    Did anyone else catch the irony in this quote given that it is an absolute...? ;-)
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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    ...there is no fundamental good or evil in our universe...
    'Fundamental' and 'objective' are different things. Polo games aren't fundamental to the universe, but it's still possible to objectively identify when they occur.
    Frankly, Miko's chances are better than Anakin's to resist falling to evil --- she's not in love with Roy...
    There's no clinching evidence for this either way, but actually, it would go a long way toward explaining her behaviour if she had been.

    First off Samantha and her dad were badly injured (blood on their clothes) and tied up implying they'd already been defeated once and were probably not at their best.
    "Ooh, I can see you're a little beat up there. And all trussed up too! Here, let me help you out."
    "Thanks! ...YOU'LL SERVE ME OR YOU'LL DIE!"
    "Ho ho ho! Hold person- a very ripe jibe, I must say! Now now, no need for that, I have quite high saving throws you know!"
    "SUMMON MONSTER VIII!"
    "Oh, well called, I must say- I don't have any vastly effective defences against neutrally aligned extraplanar creatures with vast damage reduc-"
    *dies horribly*
    Last edited by Alfryd; 2007-01-28 at 07:43 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Miko had no choice but to kill Samantha. Hold Person is a lethal spell. It was less necessary to take out the father, but still a reasonable response when attacked.

    I think the main point Rich was trying to make with that encounter was just that Miko was powerful, and the OotS should be worried (and sure enough, she beat (most of) them in battle twice).

    Of course, if Samantha had used a Fly spell, Miko might have been toast. The only ranged attack we've seen from her is a Tanglefoot bag.

  27. - Top - End - #957
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Forestclaw View Post
    Did anyone else catch the irony in this quote given that it is an absolute...? ;-)

    Yes, it is often pointed out.

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow.... Just Wow....

    THAT my freinds was a good fall story. I can't wait to see what happens next...
    Killing a most likely non-evil man, no trial in cold blood? I am amazed that Miko would just snap like a twig with so many people on the line. This will be shocking to Hinjo. and also kind of Belkar because he likes the way Shojo made the Palidins clean up cat litter. I remember people wanting a good fall story so Rich gave all of us a good chance of a fall story. This is so amazing that it happend so suddenly.

    So just wow.
    so tense..... so dramatic
    trill in da playground

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Fine no objective good or evil then.

    I saw the whoosh but thought it was from Miko's strike but on looking at it again your right it was from him although she was striking at the same time.

    I still don't agree with the Samantha thing though first off hold person isn't a lethal spell. It can put you in a situation where your in trouble but it is actually a very good non-lethal spell for various situations where you don't want to fight. All I have to say if I was playing a paladin I would have held off a little longer before resorting to lethal force. Take a look at Sam's bodice that's her blood so any high level spells were probably used up or at least nerely used up. If she conjured something then Miko could kill her but as is I'd walk away.

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    Default Re: OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfryd View Post
    Oh, nothing in itself, but deliberately declining to use information gained from code-breaking and, in the process, allowing thousands of soldiers to die, in order to avoid informing the enemy that you've broken his cypher is definitely Chaotic. Which was done on several occasions during the war.
    They also allowed allied ships to come under attack wthout warning in order to gain more information on enemy attack broadcasts.
    But it worked. They reckon Bletchley Park shortened the war by two years.
    Gah! I don't think it was "Chaotic", it was maybe "not-Good" which may or may not have been evil.

    Actually I guess there are aspects that could be argued that the action was either Chaotic or Lawful. Sometimes I think it is more difficult to judge an action on this axis than on the Good-Evil axis.

    On the Chaotic side, they were disregarding their obligations to the troops in order to serve the greater good. On the Lawful side, they were disciplining themselves to not let go of all of the information they were in possession of. I'm pretty sure it was a difficult decision.

    In fact a Chaotic, who values the benefit of the individual over the benefit of the group, would have found the action to be very disturbing.

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