OOTS #406 - The Discussion Thread

[Jaysyn]

Cool. I'm not sure she'd lose her paladinhood. It's all up to the DM, after all, as to whether striking down a tyrant is an evil act.

I'm still wondering if that cat has special powers or not. If I was a king, I would have given my cat special powers.

Yeah, but striking down a benign, defenseless, (probably) Neutral Good tyrant who also happens to be your liege is not a Good act, no matter how you cut it.

Oh yeah, hello everyone.

[Silverblaze]

Not sure whether this has been discussed already, but with Miko's faith in her actions and purpose, would it had been a natural thing for her to invoke her "Strike Evil" ability ? With all being as it is, I am pretty sure that would have been a wake up call for her...

[fwiffo]

Not sure whether this has been discussed already, but with Miko's faith in her actions and purpose, would it had been a natural thing for her to invoke her "Strike Evil" ability ? With all being as it is, I am pretty sure that would have been a wake up call for her...

The ability is "Smite evil" and she did not use it deliberately since she decided that everyone in the room except her and Hinjo are agents of evil whether they are evil or not.

[Amon Star]

Yes, but it's the *combinations* thereof that don't make sense.

It makes sense to me, I just disagree with it. Also, it has no place in this D&D based discussion forum.

Oh, gosh, I bet Sam was just setting Miko up to give her a massage. Nothing relaxes your deltoids like wholesale paralytic enchantment.

"Oh, sweet Gods this feels good. Should I tell her the spell wore off 10 minutes ago?
...Y'know ...that's a very interesting moral quandary. I think I'll take time to ponder it."

MORAL: DO NOT GIVE IN TO YOUR SO-CALLED 'NEEDS'!

.

ROTFL!!!

I have this feeling that if Miko does fall she may not attone. She may instead insist that she is still a paladin. She says she's a samurai even though she doesnt have samurai levels, why would Paladin be any different. I'd like to go into a bit more detail but I'd like to wrap it in a spoiler tag just havent figured out how to do that yet. :D

You do spoilers like this: {spoiler}"Insert text here"{/spoiler} except replace the {}s with []s.

Oh, and when Sabine impersonates someone, the eyes have always been red, so its not really likely that this was Sabine.

Not always. Here's one example; http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html

[Baron]

Baron Von Mod: Quit the politics chat.

[Brasswatchman]

So who saw this one coming? (raises hand) For me, the "oh, crap" moment was back when we first saw Hinjo and Miko listening in. Soon as that happened, I knew that Miko was going to go nuts unless someone restrained her.

I also don't think Belkar's shocked. I just think he's surprised. Betcha next time he's congradulating Miko loudly - and then dodging the inevitable counterattack...

Great job, Giant. :)

[garylian]

Extreme case, Godwin's Law. You lose.

By invoking Godwin's Law, you are saying this discussion is dead. So, stop posting . lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

Besides, I thought his post was a relative analogy to the discussion of evil and how actions versus intent was based.

[RMS Oceanic]

Four words, I think, best sums up this strip:

This. Won't. End. Well.

Miko's gonna fall. Hard. Intent has little weight here, methinks. She may believe the Gods want her to do this, but I can't see them being pleased at her killing the guy who's actively trying to stop the single largest threat to their own existance. She'll eventually have to look at herself, and she won't like what she'll see. Where we go from that, I couldn't tell you, though I personally hope for redemptive sacrifice.

I also believe Shojo's dead dead, for one reason or another. His death marks a major turning point in the story, rather like Black Belt's death in 8-Bit Theater. I don't think he'll be above ghost appearances, though.

[CGM3]

If a crown of a lich can make you detect as evil, a shrunken angel head stuffed down your codpiece might make you detect as good.

EWWWWWWWW!!!

As for Miko not using her Detect Evil ability on Shojo, as has been pointed out already, she did not accuse him of being evil per se, but of being an agent of evil. Remember, she informed Hinjo that everybody in the room except the two of them was an agent of evil whether or not their alignment was evil.

Miko now believes that she has received a "revelation" which has expanded her perception of a paladin's purpose. If someone, in her opinion, is working for the good (as she defines it), then they are Good, whatever their formal alignment might be. Otherwise, they are agents of evil, again regardless of alignment, and must be destroyed.

I doubt very much that she'll become a blackguard. She still sees herself as a true paladin (probably as the true paladin) fighting the good fight despite the ignorant prejudices of the unenlightened.

[WhiteNoise]

Though thinking about it in a strange and twisted way the 12 gods have exactly answered mikos prayer and shown her her true enemy,

Herself,

for corrolary i refer you to

Go get the criminals

my swords shall be bathed in their blood

mr scruffy says it might be better to only capture them and bring them here for trial

[pedrokraemer]

I have never liked Miko.

Actually, a hope she dies!!!

She´s totally a pain in the ass!

She should have lost her paladin status when she tried to kill Belkar, back on the trial. Now she MUST loose her paladin powers, 'cause she´s no longer using them for good. She´s using them for her own sake...

DIE, MIKO, DIE.

BELKAR RULES

[Laman_Stahros]

EWWWWWWWW!!!

As for Miko not using her Detect Evil ability on Shojo, as has been pointed out already, she did not accuse him of being evil per se, but of being an agent of evil. Remember, she informed Hinjo that everybody in the room except the two of them was an agent of evil whether or not their alignment was evil.

Miko now believes that she has received a "revelation" which has expanded her perception of a paladin's purpose. If someone, in her opinion, is working for the good (as she defines it), then they are Good, whatever their formal alignment might be. Otherwise, they are agents of evil, again regardless of alignment, and must be destroyed.

I doubt very much that she'll become a blackguard. She still sees herself as a true paladin (probably as the true paladin) fighting the good fight despite the ignorant prejudices of the unenlightened.

And thus

Spoiler

Show

I see the possiblity that she would work with if convinces her that they are trying to stop the Order from helping . And that would be the path that leads to blackguard.

Oh, and WOOOOHOOOO!!!! This thread broke the 1000 post ceiling!

[Renegade Paladin]

I have never liked Miko.

Actually, a hope she dies!!!

She´s totally a pain in the ass!

She should have lost her paladin status when she tried to kill Belkar, back on the trial. Now she MUST loose her paladin powers, 'cause she´s no longer using them for good. She´s using them for her own sake...

DIE, MIKO, DIE.

BELKAR RULES

Why should she have lost her paladinhood during the trial? She should and probably would have kept it even if she'd taken Belkar's head off his shoulders right then and there.

If we're talking DnD terms or scifi it goes a step further and there can be societies whoes sole goal in existence is the extermination of all other living beings that believe they are doing the right and good thing and thats in a system that has objective good, evil, law and chaos beings.

And they're incorrect. Orcs in most settings want to sweep the world clean of the other humanoid races because they see everything as rightfully theirs because their gods say it is. Note that those gods, as well as their orc followers, are, in fact, Evil with a capital E. In D&D, their belief that they're in the right doesn't matter, because they're not.

EDIT
Look at laws in the world there are still places its LEGAL to stone a woman to death for witchcraft. In elightened 1st world countries its often legally rape only if you say no. Then if we want to get personal there's my neighbour a very nice man who's several times had his chemistry (pharmacy store) vandalized because of his racial background. Believe me even if they don't admit it there are a lot of different views on what's really the right thing to do.

And in the real world there's a lot more grey than in a fantasy world with actual, tangible Good and Evil, but again, there are some things that are right or wrong regardless of personal belief. You've named some of them. I could bust out the writings of John Locke and go on a long explanation of the nature of inherent rights-based morality, but that's not necessary for the point, which boils down to this: Killing an non-threatening person who has not provably committed crimes worthy of execution while he sits in his chair is wrong. It's certainly Evil in D&D, and it would be wrong out here on the other side of the Fourth Wall as well.

[KeiranHalcyon]

I haven't taken the time to read through this whole thread for it, but I did run a search that came back empty... but anyway, did anyone notice that comic #285 was also titled "A Moment of Truth"?

[Renegade Paladin]

Yes, I noticed. Don't remember if I posted it, but I mentioned it in the AIM chat.

[Siberys]

Yes but who would you rather be next to, Belkar, Thog, or Miko?

The former of the two would kill you without a second thought. Miko at least tries to act good, even if in the end she is mistaken.

in this order -

Thog (so long as he had a puppy or ice cream or somesuch easily obtained distraction)
Miko (so long as not on a rampage or in roving justicator mode)
Belkar (if he's drunk or there are lots of people around to prevent my death or physical pain, or he's got th MoJ on him)

In other words, from least overtly ruthless to most.

[CelestialStick]

I know it's a bit late, but I have to say that I was just stunned at the end.

[Caractacus]

Who wasn't?

Shocking.

By the way, welcome back, CelestialStick, where've you been?

[Alfryd]

I know it's a bit late, but I have to say that I was just stunned at the end.

Nah, it was easy enough to see coming by the end of page 2. What I found wierd was that she was all deadly calm for the first page. If you're going to come up with crazed, disconnected delusional accusations, it makes sense for the character to be enraged at the time. Rationalisations folow emotional outburts, you don't rationalise and then drum up the needed emotional backing vocals. 'Known minions', 'ghosts'? What the hell?
If, on the other hand, Miko was an oasis of frigid calm, I would expect her to come out with a cogent, concise, compelling and comprehensive explanation for her actions that merely happened to be entirely, utterly, terribly wrong, and *then* get pissed.
There wasn't really a sense of 'inevitable descent' like I got in 251 and 285.

[CelestialStick]

Who wasn't?

Shocking.

By the way, welcome back, CelestialStick, where've you been?

Mostly in a state of depression. Sometimes I forget for weeks on end to check out OOTS. I actually stopped posting reguarly last summer after another regular poster made some anti-semitic comments to me in a private message. I just couldn't see posting with him around like nothing was wrong. At that time I was reading but not posting. Some months later I started to post again occasionally. Later though I got seriously depressed and started to forget to read the strip for a while. Anyway, thanks for the welcome back.

Was everyone stunned? I read above at least one poster who said he or she anticipated this outcome. (Edit: Not to mention the poster immediately previous to this post.) Either way, at least Mr. Scruffy emerged unscathed. I am particularly partial to cats.

[TinSoldier]

Nah, it was easy enough to see coming by the end of page 2. What I found wierd was that she was all deadly calm for the first page.

I didn't necessarily see it coming, and I didn't find that weird at all that she was deadly calm until the very end.

If you're going to come up with crazed, disconnected delusional accusations, it makes sense for the character to be enraged at the time. Rationalisations folow emotional outburts, you don't rationalise and then drum up the needed emotional backing vocals. 'Known minions', 'ghosts'? What the hell?

Huh? She's sees everything now in absolute clarity. Why wouldn't she be calm up until the very end?

If, on the other hand, Miko was an oasis of frigid calm, I would expect her to come out with a cogent, concise, compelling and comprehensive explanation for her actions that merely happened to be entirely, utterly, terribly wrong, and *then* get pissed.

Umm, that's exactly what happened in the comic that I read... it seems to contradict your statement above, too.

Was everyone stunned? I read above at least one poster who said he or she anticipated this outcome. (Edit: Not to mention the poster immediately previous to this post.) Either way, at least Mr. Scruffy emerged unscathed. I am particularly partial to cats.

Like Alfryd said, welcome back, CS! I hope you stick around some more !

I, for one, was stunned by the last row of panels in the comic. More stunned than by #407, that's for sure.

[CelestialStick]

I didn't necessarily see it coming, and I didn't find that weird at all that she was deadly calm until the very end.

Huh? She's sees everything now in absolute clarity. Why wouldn't she be calm up until the very end?

Umm, that's exactly what happened in the comic that I read... it seems to contradict your statement above, too.

Like Alfryd said, welcome back, CS! I hope you stick around some more !

I, for one, was stunned by the last row of panels in the comic. More stunned than by #407, that's for sure.

Thanks so much, TS!

I'm glad to know that others felt stunned too. At first it seemed like Miko and Hinjo were united in their reaction to Shinjo's hostility. I expected them to call in other members of the Sapphire Guard to escort him to a cell where he would await a trial, with Hinjo taking over as leader. I did no expect Miko to play judge, jury and executioner. It's one thing for a paladin to do something like that in the field, far from home without any support, but in the middle of the Sapphire Guard's home it came as a major shock.

[Alfryd]

I read above at least one poster who said he or she anticipated this outcome.

Once Miko started hurling accusations at Shojo rather than calling for the city's immediate defence from an impending army of hobgoblins, I knew she had a screw loose. In fact, I was slightly surprised she hadn't told Hinjo before entering the throne room. This should override every other consideration.

Like Alfryd said, welcome back, CS!

I said that? Oh, right. Yes, welcome back!
Look, int/wis/cha 17/8/4.

I didn't necessarily see it coming, and I didn't find that weird at all that she was deadly calm until the very end.

No, she was only deadly calm for the first page. After that, she got incrementally more distraught.

Huh? She's sees everything now in absolute clarity. Why wouldn't she be calm up until the very end?

Because her explanation makes very little sense. That's not exactly 'absolute clarity.'

Umm, that's exactly what happened in the comic that I read... it seems to contradict your statement above, too.

No it isn't. I presented two alternate scenarios that I think would make more sense.
Look, if you want an example:

Spoiler

Show

First, Hinjo et Shojo's heart to heart, Roy & co. shut up. As standard.

Shojo: "Hinjo, please..."

Miko: *strangely quiet* "Xykon the Lich Sorcerer is less than a day's march away, riding before an army of hobgoblins in their tens of thousands."

Hinjo: "What! When did this happen?! Why didn't you say something!"

Miko: "I was returning from delivery of my missive. A fluke of chance, you might say."

Shojo: "Impossible! The warning beacons! They..."

Miko: "All destroyed, before any message could be sent. But you know all this of course. You've been working with Greenhilt and that vile assassin. Known minions of Xykon."

Miko: "No-one survives contact with a Lich without worse than perishing, or vanquishing their foe. Unless, of course, you work for them, Greenhilt."

Belkar: "Have you been cutting me out of the loop?"

Roy: "...you're accepting a theory that came out of Miko's mouth. Shojo!"

Shojo: "Actually, I'm a little curious what Xykon is doing here, rather, than, say, on a different continent," *glances at Roy* "but I'm assured there's a reasonable explanation."

Miko: "Do you take me for a fool?! I trusted you. Years ago, when you chose me to join the guard, I cried my first night from the Dojo. But you came and told me that here, here we do the Gods' work. Was even one word- one- you've ever said to me truth?"

Hinjo: "Miko, now hang on a second. If what you say is true, we don't have time for this."

Miko: "NO. No compromises, no backing down before the battle is won!"

Roy: "We DID destroy him. He has a... phylac-tery... thingy, that binds his soul, he got... raised somehow. -Shojo, tell her!"

Miko: *laughs, shaking, hand to mouth* "You do take me for a fool- But I tire of indulging your duplicities: Greenhilt- all of you." *draws sword, points it around, becomes grim* "There will be judgement this day. But fear not, I see you play a minor part in this conspiracy! You are but the messengers." *sheathes sword, walks up to Shojo*

Miko: "We have but hours to spare before a vast invasion force lays siege to this city, and all the defences which might have afforded warning or provision are gone. Who could orchestrate this disaster? Who has the means, and the motive? Who has hid their true face from us for years, filling our thoughts with lies!"

Miko: "What was the price, my Lord? The extermination of the nobles? Greed? Willful malignance? When the city lay in ruins, you could sit atop the rubble and rule the slaves with impunity?"

Shojo: "Miko, you need to sit down."

Hinjo: "Miko, you're scaring me. Whatever else, we need to make preparations for the siege, now. We can consider this problem later!"

Belkar: "Yeah, consider the every way you've fallen completely off your rocker."

Roy: "Not. Helping."

Belkar: "Not trying!"

Miko: *ignoring them* "And here I am, but moments beforehand, poised to hear your confession before us all, with your wretched accomplices in tow- All the better." *slightly glad expression*

Miko: "Coincidence? I think not." *draws sword*

Miko: "I beseeched the Twelve Gods in prayer to reveal all who would obstruct the sacred mission of the Sapphire Guard. And they answered! In the name of the Twelve Gods, and as the highest-ranking paladin of the sapphire guard, I convict you of high treason." *raises sword*

Hinjo: "Miko- NO! The laws- He must be tried! If you do this, there will be chaos! Think to the defence..." *holds up hands, in case Miko strikes Shojo*

Miko: "I am saving this city! The LAWS HAVE NO MEANING! They were written by the enemy in his decades on the throne!" *hesitates*

Shojo: "Everything I ever did, I did for my people." *Miko, face contorted by rage, slays shojo*

*fade to black*

Of course, it's possible Roy didn't bother to interject since he expected no better of Miko and assumed Shojo would be able to simply ignore her, but I didn't find his keeping completely uninvolved entirely believable. And maybe Miko couldn't be quite so loquacious. But anyways. I might have imagined something like that.

[unstattedCommoner]

Look, if you want an example:

Spoiler

Show

{snip}
Roy: "We DID destroy him. He has a... phylac-tery... thingy, that binds his soul, he got... raised somehow. -Shojo, tell her!"

Yeah, I wondered about that. Either Durkon and V have no ranks in either Knowledge [Religion] or Knowledge [Arcana], or they failed their rolls on this point, or:

Spoiler

Show

Belkar: "We would have searched for it, but Elan had already activated the self-destruct rune -"
Roy: "Shut up!"
Belkar: "- and there's no way it could have survived the explosion which destroyed the gate -"
Roy: "SHUT! UP!"
Belkar: "- unless it's that crown-thing Roy's been wearing which caused him to detect as evil."
Miko: Hah!! I knew it!! What further proof do you want?!!
Roy: (to Belkar) "Did you just fail a Listen check?"

[TinSoldier]

Once Miko started hurling accusations at Shojo rather than calling for the city's immediate defence from an impending army of hobgoblins, I knew she had a screw loose. In fact, I was slightly surprised she hadn't told Hinjo before entering the throne room. This should override every other consideration.

Hmm. I see a few outbursts in there intermixed with the calm...

(Reading it, I am for some reason imagining Sigourney Weaver from the Alien flicks as Miko.)

Because her explanation makes very little sense. That's not exactly 'absolute clarity.'

It makes little sense to us. It makes perfect sense to her. It also seems somewhat plausible if very circumstantial.

I'll bold the parts here where I think she's having an outburst, regular text will show calm.

Spoiler

Show

First, Hinjo et Shojo's heart to heart, Roy & co. shut up. As standard.

Shojo: "Hinjo, please..."

*strangely quiet* "Xykon the Lich Sorcerer is less than a day's march away, riding before an army of hobgoblins in their tens of thousands."

Hinjo: "What! When did this happen?! Why didn't you say something!"

"I was returning from delivery of my missive. A fluke of chance, you might say."

Shojo: "Impossible! The warning beacons! They..."

(somewhat forcefully) "All destroyed, before any message could be sent. " (quieter) "But you know all this of course. You've been working with Greenhilt and that vile assassin. Known minions of Xykon."

(somewhat forcefully) "No-one survives contact with a Lich without worse than perishing, or vanquishing their foe." (quieter) " Unless, of course, you work for them, Greenhilt."

"Have you been cutting me out of the loop?"

"...you're accepting as credible a theory that came out of Miko's mouth. Shojo..."

Shojo: "Actually, I'm a little curious what Xykon is doing here, rather, than, say, on a different continent," *glances at Roy* "but I'm assured there's a reasonable explanation."

Miko: (angrily) "Do you take me for a fool?!" (normal voice, maybe a little pleading) "I trusted you. Years ago, when you chose me to join the guard, I cried my first night from the Dojo. But you came and told me that here, here we do the Gods' work." (more forcefully) "Was even one word- one- you've ever said to me truth?"

Hinjo: "Miko, now hang on a second. If what you say is true, we don't have time for this."

(forcefully) "NO. No compromises, no backing down before the battle is won!"

"We DID destroy him. He has a... phylac-tery... thingy, that binds his soul, he got... raised somehow. -Shojo, tell her!"

(mockingly)*laughs, shaking, hand to mouth* "You do take me for a fool- But I tire of indulging your duplicities: Greenhilt- all of you." *draws sword, points it around, becomes grim* (a little more forceful here) "There will be judgement this day. But fear not, I see you play a minor part in this conspiracy! You are but the messengers." *sheathes sword, walks up to Shojo*

"We have but hours to spare before a vast invasion force lays siege to this city, and all the defences which might have afforded warning or provision are gone. Who could orchestrate this disaster? Who has the means, and the motive? Who has hid their true face from us for years, filling our thoughts with lies!"

(more forcefully with a crescendo) "What was the price, my Lord? The extermination of the nobles? Greed? Willful malignance? When the city lay in ruins, you could sit atop the rubble and rule the slaves with impunity?"

Shojo: "Miko, you need to sit down."

Hinjo: "Miko, you're scaring me. Whatever else, we need to make preparations for the siege, now. We can consider this problem later!"

"Yeah, consider the every way you've fallen completely off your rocker."

"Not. Helping."

"Not trying!"

(calmly) *ignoring them* "And here I am, but moments beforehand, poised to hear your confession before us all, with your wretched accomplices in tow- All the better." *slightly glad expression*

(calmly, but with a little sneer in her voice at the end) "Coincidence? I think not." *draws sword*

(No emotion -- an announcer like voice) "I beseeched the Twelve Gods in prayer to reveal all who would obstruct the sacred mission of the Sapphire Guard. And they answered! In the name of the Twelve Gods, and as the highest-ranking paladin of the sapphire guard, I convict you of high treason." *raises sword*

Hinjo: "Miko- NO! The laws- He must be tried! If you do this, there will be chaos! Think to the defence..." *holds up hands, in case Miko strikes Shojo*

(angrily) "I am saving this city! The LAWS HAVE NO MEANING! They were written by the enemy in his decades on the throne!" *hesitates*

Shojo: "Everything I ever did, I did for my people." *Miko, face contorted by rage, slays shojo*

*fade to black*

Of course, it's possible Roy didn't bother to interject since he expected no better of Miko and assumed Shojo would be able to simply ignore her, but I didn't find his keeping completely uninvolved entirey believable, and mebbe Miko wouldn't be quite that loquacious. But anyways. I might have imagined something like that.

[/QUOTE]

[Alfryd]

It makes little sense to us. It makes perfect sense to her. It also seems somewhat plausible if very circumstantial.

Yeah, but I'd vaguely prefer something a little more clinching than 'somewhat plausible'.

I'll bold the parts here where I think she's having an outburst, regular text will show calm.

Yes, but the idea is, she'd come come up with this explanation during the first page, when she's pondering quietly, and divulge it afterward. She can get as angsty as she likes then.
Nicely marked-up, btw.

"(mockingly)"
Actually, it's supposed to be a faint twinge of madness, but, works either way.

"(Reading it, I am for some reason imagining Sigourney Weaver from the Alien flicks as Miko.)"
Oh... oh, yes... oh, yes please, mama almighty.

Spoiler

Show

Belkar: "We would have searched for it, but Elan had already activated the self-destruct rune -"
Roy: "Shut up!"
Belkar: "- and there's no way it could have survived the explosion which destroyed the gate -"
Roy: "SHUT! UP!"
Belkar: "- unless it's that crown-thing Roy's been wearing which caused him to detect as evil."
Miko: Hah!! I knew it!! What further proof do you want?!!
Roy: (to Belkar) "Did you just fail a Listen check?"

Not bad. Might wanna toss that in...

[consul]

(On a less dire note: "Did she just call me a ghost?" Heh heh. I guess Belkar wouldn't consider himself a murderer because he doesn't attach a stigma to it, but I'm surprised he apparently doesn't consider himself a mercenary...? Why did he join up with the Order to begin with, then? )

He joined up with them for protection, since he was about to get re-captured for something.

[Coffee_Dragon]

In fact, I was slightly surprised she hadn't told Hinjo before entering the throne room.

That stood out as weird to me too. Besides the other weird outstanding things.