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    Default [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?
    A collection of sorcerer variants

    Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. In this, I am left to wonder why there is so little variance. Granted, the class itself is quite flexible and the few variants that do exist help a great deal, but I believe we can broaden things a bit. My goal isn't optimized variants, but I still want things to be functional. Any and all input is greatly welcomed.


    DIVERGENT SORCERER
    "We come from many walks of life, why would you ever think we all walked the same paths?"
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    Class Features
    The divergent sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features except as noted below.
    Spellcasting: A divergent sorcerer casts identically to standard sorcerers except in that they draw all their spells from a spell list other than the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This list is chosen at the time of creation from the list below and cannot be changed. With some spell lists, the Difficulty Class of saves against the spells may change from Charisma to a different mental ability score, reflected also in the table below. A DM may rule that their save DC remains based on Charisma, or that for the purposes of spellcasting Charisma is replaced entirely based on the list chosen. If the class's spell list does not go up to 9th level, all spell levels above it's maximum are drawn instead from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. If the class's spell list does not include 0 level spells, these too are then drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

    {table=head]Spell List|Save DC Ability
    Artificer|Intelligence
    Bard|Charisma
    Cleric|Wisdom
    Druid|Wisdom
    Witch|Charisma
    Wu Jen|Charisma [/table]


    DIVINE SORCERER
    "I am sorcery born of divinity, the gods smile upon me, can you truly say the same?"
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    Class Features
    The divine sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features except as noted below.
    Spellcasting: A divine sorcerer casts spells almost identically as a sorcerer, except that their spells are divine instead of arcane. While divine sorcerers do not suffer from arcane spell failure, they are limited by the alignments of spells. A divine sorcerer cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to their own. A true neutral divine sorcerer cannot cast any spells possessing an alignment descriptor.


    ECLECTIC SORCERER
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    Class Features
    The eclectic sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features except as noted below.
    Spellcasting: An eclectic sorcerer casts spells as a normal sorcerer, drawing from the same pool of spells. However, for each level of spells an eclectic sorcerer possesses, one of their spells known must be drawn from a list other than the sorcerer/wizard spell list. For example, a 1st level eclectic sorcerer would know two spells drawn from a list other than the sorcerer/wizard spell list, one of 0-level spell and one of 1st-level spell. They may not draw these spells from a spell list specific to a prestige class unless they have levels in the prestige class. For example, an eclectic sorcerer cannot normally draw spells from the assassin spell list for the purpose of spells known as an eclectic sorcerer, unless they have levels in the assassin class.


    MYSTERIOUS SORCERER
    "You'll never truly understand shadow unless you are born of it."
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    Class Features
    The mysterious sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.
    Mysteries: A mysterious sorcerer casts mysteries instead of spells. Ignore their spells per day table, but follow their spells known table for the purpose of how many mysteries they know of each given level. As shadowcasters they may learn mysteries more than once to gain additional uses. Unlike shadowcasters, they cast entirely from Charisma and gain additional uses of mysteries based on a high Charisma score. These additional uses are not keyed to any individual mystery and may be expended to cast any mystery of the appropriate level. Unlike a shadowcaster's mysteries, these do not inherently advance to spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities with level.
    Caster of Shadows: A mysterious sorcerer does not inherently acquire a familiar. A mysterious sorcerer may treat all levels in mysterious sorcerer as levels in shadowcaster strictly for the purpose of qualifying for feats.


    PSIONIC SORCERER
    "I know what you are thinking, I was born to do this."
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    Class Skills: Remove Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft from the psionic sorcerer's class skill list. Add Knowledge (psionics) and Psicraft to the psionic sorcerer's class skill list.

    Class Features
    The psionic sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features except as noted below.
    Manifesting: In place of spells, a psionic sorcerer manifests powers drawn from the psion/wilder spell list. Unlike most manifesters, a psionic sorcerer refers to their spells per day table, technically now being a powers per day. Powers known remain as spells known, though given there are no 0-level powers, a psionic sorcerer still draws from the sorcerer/wizard spell list for this purpose.

    Power Points: While a psionic sorcerer doesn't require power points to manifest powers, they still possess a power point pool. The number of power points they possess is equal to their effective levels in psionic sorcerer, with bonuses based on high ability score.

    Bonus Feat: In place of a familiar, a psionic sorcerer gains a single psionic feat for which they qualify as a bonus feat.


    ROBE AND DAGGER SORCERER
    "There is almost nothing the right combination of steps, stabs, and words cannot accomplish."
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    Base Attack Bonus: The robe and dagger sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the rogue
    Class Skills: Add Balance, Decipher Script, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble to the robe and dagger sorcerer's class skill list. At each level, a robe and dagger sorcerer gains 6 + their Int modifier skill points.

    Class Features
    The robe and dagger sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features except as noted below.
    Spellcasting: The robe and dagger sorcerer casts sorcerer spells as the standard sorcerer, but possesses fewer daily spell slots and spells known. Subtract one spell per day and spell known from each spell level, to a minimum of zero spells per day and spells known.
    Sneak Attack: Robe and dagger sorcerers, unlike standard sorcerers, learn how to strike vital spots for extra damage against foes unable to defend themselves. At 1st and at each level divisible by 4 (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th), a robe and dagger sorcerer gains +1d6 sneak attack.
    Familiar: Robe and dagger sorcerers possess familiars like the standard sorcerer but their abilities vary. For the purpose of familiar abilities, please refer to the table below.


    * Their empathetic link allows sorcerers to revive constant feedback from their familiars on the best ways to move unnoticed

    ** A Familar who delivers a damage dealing spell to a flatfooted target may deal Sneak Attack damage equal to that dealt by their master. This does not apply to regular melee attacks by the Familar

    *** Robe and Daggers gain Scrying at level 3. Unlike wizards, who rely on fancy shmancy mirrors, these Sorcerers reach out through their familiars as an extension of their self.



    INTERACTIONS
    Between the variants above and those few official ones, there are some that may have unusual interactions, or ones that at least should be taken note of.
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    Divergent Psionic Sorcerer: Combining these variants, the list from which you select your powers can be of any list of the following lists, the save DCs of your powers may also be changed accordingly. If a list doesn't reach 9th level powers, then powers of missing levels are drawn from the Psion/Wilder power list. With DM permission, one may draw from the standard divergent list for spells but have them treated as psionic powers for the purposes of casting/manifesting, or simply use the divergent variant to change the selection from which the psionic sorcerer draws their level 0 spells.


    {table=head]Power List|Save DC Ability
    Ardent*|Wisdom
    Lurk|Intelligence
    Psychic Warrior|Wisdom [/table]


    *Treat all psionic mantle powers as being apart of this list. If you can find no more powers of a particular level, then your powers known may be drawn from lower levels, or from the psion/wilder list. Which is to the DM's discretion.

    Mysterious Psionic Sorcerer: For the purpose of selecting psionic mysteries, please refer to the following links:

    Mysterious Powers
    Mysterious power descriptions: A-K
    Mysterious power descriptions: L-Z

    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-02-08 at 04:03 AM.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    ...and now someone needs to run a game where everyone plays variant sorcerers.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    I really like the divergent sorcerer. You can have a group of four sorcerers that are vastly different that way. Though I do worry if that would increase power early on? I haven't really looked and I don't know the ranger or paladin spell list very well but I just wanted to point out that getting their spells early might cause a problem.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    ...and now someone needs to run a game where everyone plays variant sorcerers.
    That would be rather entertaining now wouldn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by XionUnborn01 View Post
    I really like the divergent sorcerer. You can have a group of four sorcerers that are vastly different that way. Though I do worry if that would increase power early on? I haven't really looked and I don't know the ranger or paladin spell list very well but I just wanted to point out that getting their spells early might cause a problem.
    Im glad you like it. I was going to make a whole list of variants, each drawing from specific lists but then I decided, why not make one size that fits all?

    I understand your concern, not all spell lists are created equal. For the sake of things, lets take a look at the paladin spell list, specifically what they get that no one else does. Everything else is gained by others at the same or a lower level. As a minor note, I didn't put this up there explicitly but, if a list lacks level 0 spells (unless under the psionic variant) you'll still draw cantrips from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

    Bless Weapon: This is a 1st level spell that gives a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of bypassing the DR of evil creatures or striking evil incorporeal creatures. The weapon becomes good. Critical rolls against evil foes are automatically successful.

    This would be solid for 1st level but not necessarily game breaking. A Divergent Battle Sorcerer would greatly benefit from this though.

    Holy Sword: This 4th level spell makes a melee weapon touched into a +5 holy weapon for its duration, overwriting anything the weapon may have inherently for it's duration (1 round/level, ending automatically when leaving your hand). It also emits a magic circle against evil.

    This is rather powerful for a 4th level, but as a caster it won't benefit as much, getting this at 8th level. Still, a good aligned divergent battle sorcerer with this would be pretty solid.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    They're great, but... I have a problem with the robe and dagger sorcerer. If it has sneak attack, should it not have average base attack? If it has poor base attack, limited casting, and abilities that rely mostly on the ability to actually hit, should it not be able to hit?

    Other than that, this is great. Also, may I add my own variant at some point?
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderfist12 View Post
    They're great, but... I have a problem with the robe and dagger sorcerer. If it has sneak attack, should it not have average base attack? If it has poor base attack, limited casting, and abilities that rely mostly on the ability to actually hit, should it not be able to hit?

    Other than that, this is great. Also, may I add my own variant at some point?
    That is a good point, so I've added that in. I tried to come up with a reason not to but I couldn't find it.

    Of course, by all means make one and show it to us.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    What, no Martial Adept Sorcerer?

    I kid I kid. That would be pretty hard to do. As would an Incarum Sorcerer, as we pretty much already have that.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempestfury View Post
    What, no Martial Adept Sorcerer?

    I kid I kid. That would be pretty hard to do. As would an Incarum Sorcerer, as we pretty much already have that.
    I actually considered incarnum, invocations, infusions, maneuvers, binding, utterances… None I could think of a simple way and have it still resemble the sorcerer class. The easiest would be infusions, for obvious reasons, but we could argue that could easily just fall under divergent.


    I was also considering a variant that would combine otherwise incompatible variants, but maybe later.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Honestly, what we have here fits the sorcerer well enough.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    So a divergent sorcerer can take on a clerics spell list, right? So the only difference between a divergent and a divine sorcerer is that the divine sorcerer trades arcane spell failure for alignment restrictions on spells. Am I reading that right?
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by crayzz View Post
    So a divergent sorcerer can take on a clerics spell list, right? So the only difference between a divergent and a divine sorcerer is that the divine sorcerer trades arcane spell failure for alignment restrictions on spells. Am I reading that right?
    A divergent sorcerer who takes on the cleric's spell list casts spells as a sorcerer, still dealing with all the ups and downs of being a cleric, just that their spells are drawn from the cleric spell list. A divergent sorcerer who takes on the cleric spell list is still an arcane spellcaster.

    A divine sorcerer retains their selections of spells, spells per day, spells known, only trading the mechanics of arcane with divine. They are a divine spellcaster, but their list remains the sorcerer/wizard spell list, unless you decide to be a divergent divine sorcerer.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Divergent Sorcerer looks really abusable. Something like Divergent Sorcerer (Trapsmith) gives haste and clauraudience/clairvoyance at level 1.

    Psionic Sorcerer seems like a crappier version of the psion. The added flexibility you get in powers known doesn't seem as good as the ability to cast extra highest-level slots 4 more times per day. The exception to this is low levels, where the sorcerer wins because +1 power/day >> psicrystal.

    Robe and Dagger Sorcerer is a pretty big nerf that doesn't offer much in the way of benefit. 3/4 BAB and weak sneak attack aren't as strong as save-or-dies and polymorph.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Divergent Sorcerer looks really abusable. Something like Divergent Sorcerer (Trapsmith) gives haste and clauraudience/clairvoyance at level 1.
    This is the kinda thing I was worrying about, Xuldarinar. You might want to limit it to full casters and then possibly make another type of divergent sorcerer for shortened lists like 1-4th or 1-6th level.

    I guess in all reality it would probably be up to the DM which class they could pull spells from so it might not be a big deal though a DM like myself who doesn't have great knowledge of some of the obscure classes could get into trouble quickly.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Divergent Sorcerer looks really abusable. Something like Divergent Sorcerer (Trapsmith) gives haste and clauraudience/clairvoyance at level 1.

    Psionic Sorcerer seems like a crappier version of the psion. The added flexibility you get in powers known doesn't seem as good as the ability to cast extra highest-level slots 4 more times per day. The exception to this is low levels, where the sorcerer wins because +1 power/day >> psicrystal.

    Robe and Dagger Sorcerer is a pretty big nerf that doesn't offer much in the way of benefit. 3/4 BAB and weak sneak attack aren't as strong as save-or-dies and polymorph.
    Your first complaint is really easy to fix, do not allow the selection of Prestige Class spell lists. The suggestion of limiting it to spell lists of the appropriate size is a good one, but I'll use this limit until someone shows me a broken base class spell list.

    A poor version of the Psion, doesn't seem like its a terrible thing. You can still grab a psicrystal by taking that as your bonus feat, or you can choose something else. Still a tier 2 perhaps, though a lower one than psion. If you feel it needs something more, then by all means please suggest it.

    Robe and Dagger is more of a matter in an individual's taste than optimization, though I concede it needs something and would welcome any further suggestion. I tried to keep the SA progression lower than that of the rogue, and from what it is it is actually superior to the spellthief in that regard. As a class variant I will note, it can easily enter Arcane Trickster, Daggerspell Mage, and Spellwarp Sniper, three good presage classes for the theme that usually require multi-classing to fulfill. I shouldn't turn to such things as solutions, but its something to take into consideration.
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-02-04 at 11:14 AM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    As far as I can tell, the Psionic Sorcerer is just an inferior Psion in every single way.

    Here is how it loses out.
    1) Bonus feats: Not only does the psion start out with one, but they get them every 5th level like a wizard)
    2) Power points: Except at first level (due to that one odd extra power point), the sorcerer has fewer power points than the psion, and the disparity grows larger at each level.
    3) Powers known: At every level, the psion has more powers known than the sorcerer. For the first 10 levels the disparity is substantial, but while it tapers off the difference still remains. In addition, the psion can always choose any power they could manifest- a sorcerer with powers known is more restricted in what they can choose at each level. Also, like it does in comparison to wizard, the sorcerer gets access to higher levels later.
    4) No discipline powers: The sorcerer has no access to any discipline lists, and so has a smaller selection of powers to choose from than the psion.

    A psionic sorcerer could be interesting, but it needs to be able to do something that the psion can't, even if it doesn't make up the power disparity. Just give it something unique- right now all it has are nerfs and Charisma.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2014-02-04 at 11:49 AM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    A chief issue I see with the divergent sorcerer is that any spellcasting class that isn't the wizard/sorcerer has a better class chassis than the wizard/sorcerer (better HD, stuff other than the casting itself, etc) so picking their spell lists on a sorcerer chassis instead of the original is... Objectively terrible?

    Plus the fact that when push comes to shove, casting divine spells has less hassle than casting arcane spells (no ASF, mostly).

    Makes me recall... Treantmonk, I believe? Saying that any time a wizard is casting a spell that is on the cleric's spell list he is a chump.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    Robe and Dagger is more of a matter in an individual's taste than optimization, though I concede it needs something and would welcome any further suggestion.
    What if you modified the familar abilities to play up the stealth element?

    | Master Level | Special |
    | 1-2 | Stealthy*, Improved Evasion, Empathetic Link, Share Spells |
    | 3-4 | Deliver Touch Spells** |
    | 5-6 | Speak With Master |
    | 7-8 | Scry on Familar 1/day*** |
    | 9-10 | --- |
    | 11-12 | Spell Resistance |
    | 13-14 | Scry on Familar 2/day |
    | 14-18 | --- |
    | 19-20 | Scry on Familar 3/day |

    * Their empathetic link allows sorcerers to revive constant feedback from their familiars on the best ways to move unnoticed

    ** A Familar who delivers a damage dealing spell to a flatfooted target may deal Sneak Attack damage equal to that dealt by their master. This does not apply to regular melee attacks by the Familar

    *** Robe and Daggers gain Scrying at level 3. Unlike wizards, who rely on fancy shmancy mirrors, these Sorcerers reach out through their familiars as an extension of their self.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by AmberVael View Post
    As far as I can tell, the Psionic Sorcerer is just an inferior Psion in every single way.

    Here is how it loses out.
    1) Bonus feats: Not only does the psion start out with one, but they get them every 5th level like a wizard)
    2) Power points: Except at first level (due to that one odd extra power point), the sorcerer has fewer power points than the psion, and the disparity grows larger at each level.
    3) Powers known: At every level, the psion has more powers known than the sorcerer. For the first 10 levels the disparity is substantial, but while it tapers off the difference still remains. In addition, the psion can always choose any power they could manifest- a sorcerer with powers known is more restricted in what they can choose at each level. Also, like it does in comparison to wizard, the sorcerer gets access to higher levels later.
    4) No discipline powers: The sorcerer has no access to any discipline lists, and so has a smaller selection of powers to choose from than the psion.

    A psionic sorcerer could be interesting, but it needs to be able to do something that the psion can't, even if it doesn't make up the power disparity. Just give it something unique- right now all it has are nerfs and Charisma.
    I'll have to come up with something then. I can go the route of making them retain the sorcerer/wizard list though making them powers (not dissimilar to how the divine sorcerer variant works but a greater change), I can give them cantrip access, or both even. Beyond that, nothing comes immediately to mind.

    Edit: I have now given them access to cantrips though I doubt that will be enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    A chief issue I see with the divergent sorcerer is that any spellcasting class that isn't the wizard/sorcerer has a better class chassis than the wizard/sorcerer (better HD, stuff other than the casting itself, etc) so picking their spell lists on a sorcerer chassis instead of the original is... Objectively terrible?

    Plus the fact that when push comes to shove, casting divine spells has less hassle than casting arcane spells (no ASF, mostly).

    Makes me recall... Treantmonk, I believe? Saying that any time a wizard is casting a spell that is on the cleric's spell list he is a chump.
    That is certainly an issue, but so long as they are not selecting a list broken in their favor to pick and choose their spells from, I do not think it will be a huge issue.

    Yes, divine hampers one a bit less than arcane, in a sense. An arcane caster must deal with an immediate problem, their ability to move. A divine caster must deal with their source of power's whims, some powerful creatures and classes specifically are resistant to divine, and that their morality effects their selection of spells.

    Interesting quote. It is kind of foolish to do all that work to cast a spell from another list when your own is good enough. Of course are we to say archivists are chumps in that they are effectively divine wizards who cast mostly cleric spells?

    Quote Originally Posted by TripleD View Post
    What if you modified the familar abilities to play up the stealth element?

    | Master Level | Special |
    | 1-2 | Stealthy*, Improved Evasion, Empathetic Link, Share Spells |
    | 3-4 | Deliver Touch Spells** |
    | 5-6 | Speak With Master |
    | 7-8 | Scry on Familar 1/day*** |
    | 9-10 | --- |
    | 11-12 | Spell Resistance |
    | 13-14 | Scry on Familar 2/day |
    | 14-18 | --- |
    | 19-20 | Scry on Familar 3/day |

    * Their empathetic link allows sorcerers to revive constant feedback from their familiars on the best ways to move unnoticed

    ** A Familar who delivers a damage dealing spell to a flatfooted target may deal Sneak Attack damage equal to that dealt by their master. This does not apply to regular melee attacks by the Familar

    *** Robe and Daggers gain Scrying at level 3. Unlike wizards, who rely on fancy shmancy mirrors, these Sorcerers reach out through their familiars as an extension of their self.
    I like that idea, I think I'll include it as is to it.
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-02-04 at 06:24 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    That is certainly an issue, but so long as they are not selecting a list broken in their favor to pick and choose their spells from, I do not think it will be a huge issue.

    Yes, divine hampers one a bit more than arcane, in a sense. An arcane caster must deal with an immediate problem, their ability to move. A divine caster must deal with their source of power's whims, some powerful creatures and classes specifically are resistant to divine, and that their morality effects their selection of spells.

    Interesting quote. It is kind of foolish to do all that work to cast a spell from another list when your own is good enough. Of course are we to say archivists are chumps in that they are effectively divine wizards who cast mostly cleric spells?
    I think you may have made a misinterpretation of the situation I presented.

    Lets consider the default spell lists that go up to 9th level spells.

    Wizard/Sorcerer
    Cleric
    Druid
    Dread Necromancer
    Warmage
    Shugenja
    Wu Jen
    Beguiler

    Disregarding the Wiz/Sor. All of these classes have either a better chassis (BAB, HD, saves, skills) than the sorcerer or have class features besides spellcasting. Most have both.

    Why pick the sorcerer variant with that list instead of the class itself? It will always be inferior.

    Even the low caster class lists have issues with many of their best spells being tailored to work with their chassis (Paladins - melee and mounts, Rangers - archery, Duskblades - touch attacks and repeated spells with only a few early access faux jewels).

    And the point of that quote is that, say, when a wizard or sorcerer casts Animate Dead, he is casting it at 1 spell level more than a cleric and while having terrible other class features. The power of the archivist is widened access, compared to the cleric. If you won't use said widened access and only stick to cleric spells, there is nearly no point to being an archivist.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    I think you may have made a misinterpretation of the situation I presented.

    Lets consider the default spell lists that go up to 9th level spells.

    Wizard/Sorcerer
    Cleric
    Druid
    Dread Necromancer
    Warmage
    Shugenja
    Wu Jen
    Beguiler

    Disregarding the Wiz/Sor. All of these classes have either a better chassis (BAB, HD, saves, skills) than the sorcerer or have class features besides spellcasting. Most have both.

    Why pick the sorcerer variant with that list instead of the class itself? It will always be inferior.

    Even the low caster class lists have issues with many of their best spells being tailored to work with their chassis (Paladins - melee and mounts, Rangers - archery, Duskblades - touch attacks and repeated spells with only a few early access faux jewels).

    And the point of that quote is that, say, when a wizard or sorcerer casts Animate Dead, he is casting it at 1 spell level more than a cleric and while having terrible other class features. The power of the archivist is widened access, compared to the cleric. If you won't use said widened access and only stick to cleric spells, there is nearly no point to being an archivist.
    I understand perfectly. The thing is, D&D is not a competitive game. Someone can pick something inferior because that is how they prefer to play. Just look at sorcerer compared to the wizard, your reasoning seems to me to invalidate the entire class to a point, as it possesses a lesser selection of it's spells and thus is inferior. Now, other spontaneous spellcasting classes, I concede on the point, there isn't much reason. But there is plenty of reason to take from most classes their spell list for a sorcerer's selection. Flavor and personal preference.

    I do not care if the divergent sorcerer has options that are less optimal. My concern is if the options are strictly superior, or in other words potentially game breaking, or if the sorcerer is so weak it cannot function. Would a sorcerer who draws their spells from the druid spell list be weaker? Perhaps but will it still be able to function at the game table? Thats the question I want answered.

    Your reasoning for the quote is entirely valid. I see that. I contest that there is some point to being an archivist if you don't take advantage of drawing from lists other than cleric, more on the standpoint of flavor and the few class features they do possess otherwise more than what is optimal. But optimization isn't my concern here, its ability to function. Not how well, but if it can.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    I understand perfectly. The thing is, D&D is not a competitive game. Someone can pick something inferior because that is how they prefer to play. Just look at sorcerer compared to the wizard, your reasoning seems to me to invalidate the entire class to a point, as it possesses a lesser selection of it's spells and thus is inferior.
    It's true that something less powerful can still be enjoyable and worth picking. Look at all the people who enjoy Tome of Battle- the tier 1 casters outclass the initiators, but people still love the maneuver system.

    However, part of what draws people to these things is options and variety. If you have the ability to choose Wizard, or Wizard but with one less spell per day at each level, which will you choose? Besides purposefully wanting to be lower power, why would you choose the latter? This is something you agree with up to a point, at least, as you seemed to understand the problem of the psionic sorcerer that I pointed out earlier.

    What Draken is trying to point out that this is the case with a lot of spell lists. In a lot of cases taking these spell lists will leave you with a completely inferior spellcaster that loses all the features, flavor, and interest of the original classes without bringing anything in return. Look over the list.

    Cleric
    Druid
    Dread Necromancer
    Warmage
    Shugenja
    Wu Jen
    Beguiler

    First, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage. All three of these have spontaneous casting from a list, so sorcerer doesn't bring a type of casting unusual to them. All three have features, so sorcerer loses them those. And what's more, all of them have access to their entire list... while sorcerer doesn't. You don't want to use those lists- it gives you nothing new.

    Cleric and Druid would be fine in theory, as having one of their lists would at least give you a way to make a spontaneous caster... but it turns out there is a variant to do that already. Not to mention, that variant keeps the chassis and thus allows access to interesting things like turn undead, wild shape, and domains. So, a sorcerer variant that does this is redundant and strictly inferior, again.

    Shugenja is already a spontaneous caster, has more spells known than a sorcerer, uses charisma... so really, sorcerer does nothing here except lose spells and make figuring out how element spells work with it confusing. So again, nothing new.

    Which leaves you with just Wu Jen. Which I guess gives you a spontaneous Wu Jen variant, which is cool. And it could be interesting to use some of the non-9th level casting lists, but that might also mess with things in unintended ways.

    So, the issue is that not only is it inferior, but it is often inferior and doesn't really offer anything new that would make it an interesting or appealing alternative.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    I concede the points.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    What I will say is that I like the basic idea, and I think much of the fault really lies with the lack of features on the sorcerer side. If the sorcerer had anything to its name besides spells, swapping what spells it got could be interesting.

    Maybe you could convert this to a sort of eclectic learning/expanded knowledge/whatever variant, in which they gain limited access to more than one list. As in- you could choose your main list, and then for some spell known penalty, every so often you could gain an extra spell from a different list. You might even think of nifty ways to expand on that- but suffice to say, spontaneous access to multiple lists would be pretty unique on its own.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by AmberVael View Post
    What I will say is that I like the basic idea, and I think much of the fault really lies with the lack of features on the sorcerer side. If the sorcerer had anything to its name besides spells, swapping what spells it got could be interesting.

    Maybe you could convert this to a sort of eclectic learning/expanded knowledge/whatever variant, in which they gain limited access to more than one list. As in- you could choose your main list, and then for some spell known penalty, every so often you could gain an extra spell from a different list. You might even think of nifty ways to expand on that- but suffice to say, spontaneous access to multiple lists would be pretty unique on its own.
    That is an interesting Idea. I like that, though its a lot to think on. The concept itself and its precise execution. I may do it as a separate variant instead of converting divergent into that though.


    Edit: Introducing the Eclectic Sorcerer.
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-02-04 at 09:56 PM.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    I've missed a lot of conversation, so let me just toss in opinions on the subject instead of responding to what you said (which other people pretty much covered):

    Divergent Sorcerer: I think the real draw of being a sorcerer with a different spell list is that it's like a watered-down, easier version of that class. Sacrificing power is probably OK in that regard. I recommend making the divergent sorcerer able to pick off a select number of spell lists (Wu Jen, Druid, Cleric, etc) and assign each spell list a casting stat. So you could be a wis-based druid or wu jen sorcerer, thus getting you the same feel of the class without all the hassle of class features.

    In fact, if I had my druthers, I'd make the normal sorcerer int-based, then the cleric sorcerer cha-based, and the druid sorcerer wis-based.

    Psionic Sorcerer: I like this reboot less, because it makes the psicerer a bad version of the spell point variant sorcerer. Sorcerers are supposed to be simple classes, so try and write these ACFs to make them simple.

    I would recommend letting sorcerers cast powers instead of spells from their spell slots, and give a small PP pool and some minor level 1-2 class feature(s) to compensate for the lost cantrips.

    Cloak and Dagger Sorcerer: I didn't think about the prestige potential (an excellent point), but I don't believe it's worth the huge nerf to casting. You should delay their initial casting progression or make the number of accessed spells smaller, instead of using bard casting.

    I also recommend making the skills 6 + Int and balancing around that, because rogue/sorc PrCs seriously have way too many required dump skills (like Decipher Script and Escape Artist).

    Quote Originally Posted by Xul
    Makes me recall... Treantmonk, I believe? Saying that any time a wizard is casting a spell that is on the cleric's spell list he is a chump.
    It's actually an old quote ("old" by the standards of 3e history). I think the first time it came up was when K wrote the Revised Necromancer's Handbook on the old wizard's boards.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Divergent Sorcerer: I think the real draw of being a sorcerer with a different spell list is that it's like a watered-down, easier version of that class. Sacrificing power is probably OK in that regard. I recommend making the divergent sorcerer able to pick off a select number of spell lists (Wu Jen, Druid, Cleric, etc) and assign each spell list a casting stat. So you could be a wis-based druid or wu jen sorcerer, thus getting you the same feel of the class without all the hassle of class features.

    In fact, if I had my druthers, I'd make the normal sorcerer int-based, then the cleric sorcerer cha-based, and the druid sorcerer wis-based.
    Thats not a bad idea, not a bad idea at all. When I'm a little more awake I'll type this change up.

    Psionic Sorcerer: I like this reboot less, because it makes the psicerer a bad version of the spell point variant sorcerer. Sorcerers are supposed to be simple classes, so try and write these ACFs to make them simple.

    I would recommend letting sorcerers cast powers instead of spells from their spell slots, and give a small PP pool and some minor level 1-2 class feature(s) to compensate for the lost cantrips.
    You make a solid case here, for which I have no argument with. Again, when I'm a little more awake I shall tackle this. Any suggestion for a class feature for compensation?

    Cloak and Dagger Sorcerer: I didn't think about the prestige potential (an excellent point), but I don't believe it's worth the huge nerf to casting. You should delay their initial casting progression or make the number of accessed spells smaller, instead of using bard casting.

    I also recommend making the skills 6 + Int and balancing around that, because rogue/sorc PrCs seriously have way too many required dump skills (like Decipher Script and Escape Artist)..
    Thats a good point. Perhaps I should take a page from the Battle Sorcerer on this one? Either the exact amount or even slightly more.

    I agree entirely when it comes to skills here. Later I'll up the skill points and do a shuffle around of the skills.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    You make a solid case here, for which I have no argument with. Again, when I'm a little more awake I shall tackle this. Any suggestion for a class feature for compensation?
    Keep in mind the augmentation system of psionics- you definitely don't want to let a sorcerer do that for free. Tread carefully on how you handle that.

    As for suggestions on minor class features though, why not use some psionic ones? As in, the alternate psion class features?

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    You make a solid case here, for which I have no argument with. Again, when I'm a little more awake I shall tackle this. Any suggestion for a class feature for compensation?
    Off the top of my head: 1-2 cantrip effects at-will, a scaling PP pool (so they can augment), free/fast psionic focus. Those all seem pretty unique.

    Thats a good point. Perhaps I should take a page from the Battle Sorcerer on this one? Either the exact amount or even slightly more.
    Battle sorcerer is a great place to start. I totally forgot about that.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2014-02-07 at 01:16 AM.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Saying that the Mysterious Sorcerer has "Floating" uses per day may mean something to people like us that have heard the term before, but I think it's just a colloquial term and someone that never heard it would not know what it is. I'd recommend you explicitly describe what it means in the context of bonus per day.
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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5 Variants] What sorcery is this? [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilorin Lorati View Post
    Saying that the Mysterious Sorcerer has "Floating" uses per day may mean something to people like us that have heard the term before, but I think it's just a colloquial term and someone that never heard it would not know what it is. I'd recommend you explicitly describe what it means in the context of bonus per day.
    That is a reasonable enough suggestion. I've changed it to be a little more clear.

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