Targeting of spells and metagaming

[InaVegt]

In another thread I heard someone say something similar to the lines of targeting the fighter with a will save spell is metagaming. I beg to differ, I think everyone in the D&D world with intelligence would know the guy in heavy armor with a big sword is likely not to have a lot of willpower. Of course, if that guy in heavy armor with a big sword is actually a melee cleric it will not have the intended effect. Fighter types are pretty easy to recognize, belts of giant's strength, heavily enchanted armor and weaponry, amulets of health and they don't cast a single spell. A melee cleric has 3 of those four things and you won't know about the last till they actually have cast a spell. But targeting someone with, lets say, dominate person, just because he's your enemy and he looks like a fighter doesn't seem all that metagamy to me. And a DM should both never tell the PC's the class of their enemies and never metagame in the PC's negativity. If the Melee cleric looks a lot like a fighter he should be targeted by will save spells.

What do you think about this?

[Maxymiuk]

It's certainly an opportunity for an evi*cough*clever GM to overturn some of the established preconceptions. I recall when our party once had to attack a well-guarded caravan. The first person we targeted was, of course, the guy in the wizard's robe.

It turned out that the wizard had a wagon driver dress in that robe, and he himself put on peasant's clothing. Did that fireball surprise us or what.

The problem is, as long as there are classes with a rigid save progression and equipment restrictions, there will be metagaming in regards to tactics against them. And the GM can only prevaricate so much before his players cry foul or, more predictably, come up with tactics to circumvent him, such as making said melee cleric eat a reflex save.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The problem is, as long as there are classes with a rigid save progression and equipment restrictions, there will be metagaming in regards to tactics against them.

Even without equipment restrictions, a character has every reason to figure out who has what kind of saves after the first round or two of combat. The guy doing all the physical stuff would logically have a strong body (good Fort save), the guy casting spells needs a strong mind (good Will save), etc.

[shaka gl]

I consider metagamig when someone casts an area effect into an un-ocuppied square calculating the borders of the area effect to harm the bad guys and not his friends. I mean, you dont know the EXACT area of you re spell, and the long time abandonded temple doesnt actually have those squares drawn in the floor.

[Raum]

Most games I've played in the DM never says "the fighter" attacks you. It's a description, "A heavily armored man leaps through the door and swings a two handed sword at you." Any conclusions drawn about weaknesses are purely in character at this point. The opponent could be anything - a melee cleric, warblade, knight, fighter, or even an illusion.

If the DM is telling players what class each opponent is, any metagaming is his responsibility.

[Raum]

I consider metagamig when someone casts an area effect into an un-ocuppied square calculating the borders of the area effect to harm the bad guys and not his friends. I mean, you dont know the EXACT area of you re spell, and the long time abandonded temple doesnt actually have those squares drawn in the floor.

Sure he does. The spell is repeatable and has the same results each time after all. And he's probably a genius anyway, so measurements he can do on fly take the player a few seconds of looking at a map with squares on it. :)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Sure he does. The spell is repeatable and has the same results each time after all. And he's probably a genius anyway, so measurements he can do on fly take the player a few seconds of looking at a map with squares on it. :)

Indeed. An experienced hunter knows how far ahead of his prey to aim so they move into a bullet. In the same fashion, a spellcaster has experience aiming her spells.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm suddenly reminded of a DM who once told a sorcerer that she couldn't move in front of her party to cast a cone area-of-effect spell, because in his words 'she shouldn't know that it will hit her allies'.

Because, naturally, sorcerers never practise their spells. >.>

[Saph]

It's fine as long as it's just "good save, bad save". When it gets silly is when players start looking up enemies in the Monster Manual and checking out their stats, figuring out exactly what would and wouldn't work and to what degree. Doing the equivalent of a few days of research in a six second combat round stretches suspension of disbelief a bit.

- Saph

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I'm suddenly reminded of a DM who once told a sorcerer that she couldn't move in front of her party to cast a cone area-of-effect spell, because in his words 'she shouldn't know that it will hit her allies'.

Because, naturally, sorcerers never practise their spells. >.>

Sheesh! It's not even a matter of practice there.

"I'm sorry, Bob, but you have no way of knowing that shotgun will hurt your friend if you fire it from behing him."

[Shazzbaa]

Ahhh... metagaming with saves.

This has become a point of contention between my DM and me and my werewolf barbarian. Werewolves get a +2 bonus to WIS, Iron Will for free, and I had a high WIS score to begin with (control shape, yaknow).
My DM has multiple times started to target me with a Will save, then remembered my very nice Will save, changed his mind and gone for the fighter. What the heck, man? All you can see is that I'm a buff guy in armour with a big freaking axe. How would anyone who's fighting me know that I have a strong Will save?!

I hold that this is most definitely metagaming.

[AtomicKitKat]

For some reason, I know you're talking about your character, but "buff guy in armour" and your avatar just don't mesh. ;)

[Woot Spitum]

Targeting a fire elemental with a frost spell is common sense, even if you didn't make the requisite knowledge check. Targeting a flesh golem with a fire spell to slow it is metagaming, unless you made the knowledge check your character wouldn't know this if he isn't familiar with the monster.

[Parlik]

Heh GM's are not above Metagaming, I know one who never had his archers target me when my Wizard had 'Reverse Missiles' cast upon himself, even though it had been cast before the encounter.

[Arbitrarity]

Worse, I once tried to fireball enemies when blinded :D.

I had a long argument with the DM trying to have my allies point my blinded wizard and tell him how far to fire :P

[Parlik]

Line of Sight... *tap nose*

[the_tick_rules]

well if not metagaming only reserve that knowledge it for super smart opponets. i had a very metagming gm once. every single spell was directed against the class that had a low save vs it. not only for will save but fortitude, reflex, the whole 9 yards. now that's just cheap.

[Deathcow]

Worse, I once tried to fireball enemies when blinded :D.

I had a long argument with the DM trying to have my allies point my blinded wizard and tell him how far to fire :P

I had an NPC do that once after he got blinded by a Holy Smite. I used an improvised scatter chart similar to the grenadelike weapons charts. The fireball went 25 feet in exactly the wrong direction and detonated against the wall of the arena the characters were fighting in, nearly scorching some spectators.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Line of Sight... *tap nose*

Line of Sight =/= Line of Effect

You only need Line of Effect to cast a spell.

[Arbitrarity]

Actually, that's almost possible with fireball. You point, and state thr distance, accoding to the PHB...

"Point me!"
"K, done"
"How far?"
"5 ft"
"Ok, here we go..."

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, that's almost possible with fireball. You point, and state thr distance, accoding to the PHB...

"Point me!"
"K, done"
"How far?"
"5 ft"
"Ok, here we go..."

The only thing you'd really need to see for would be slipping the bead through small cracks like keyholes.

I think I'm starting to realise what the point of familiars is...

[Yakk]

I would generally vote against casting a fireball 5 ft away.

One good standard tactic when fighting with a beefy character against animal-intelligence is to be noisy and loud (and tell the DM you are making noise). To a lesser extent it should even work against humanoids.

[RaistlinandPals]

Although the tactic could be considered cheap, It could be a good way for DMs to get across to their characters that they should make balanced characters.