Lycanthropy, a different take. Philosophical and gaming discussion.

[Alberic Strein]

First of all, all our points are valid, I am answering them in the hope of answering a few of your interrogations, clarifying my point of view, and helping you refine the product of this thread. The objective is not to invalidate them.

Spoiler: the species of the beast

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1)

But my idea is that the "animal" is not the biological representation, but rather the cultural concept of it, as it perceived by a mix of society's belief, and the individual's belief.

This is how I understood it. What I am trying to say is that the fact that society's belief has any part in choosing the "inner beast" at all links the lycanthrope to social inner beasts like wolves and rats. This should in no way be restrictive. For example, a "nuclear family" which is very close, but interacts little with others, would be more akin to bears than to wolves.

From Society's point of view.

It's true that my vision of things exclude the way the person sees herself. It's a flaw, which originates from a personal opinion, that beasts, and social beasts in particular, are very complex, and thus embody a great number of qualities (positive and negative) and attributes.

Let's list a number of the "mental" attributes of wolves :

Predators, organised, pragmatic yet prideful, not afraid to use dirty strategies, are able to lead, and are able to follow a leader without issue, can both exclude and accept another in the group, are individualistic enough to become loners when excluded.

So, let's take an utter sneak. He is not above petty tricks, can be fairly efficient as a loner, but works better with a group, when a group is formed, the leader is chosen by strength, and his leadership will be constantly challenged, the sneak is also going to be pragmatic, he will run when needs be, and will prey upon the weak. When attacking the strong, he will aim for a weakpoint rather than confront them head on.

So a sneak can fill the wolf's bill, while a diplomat or any other leader will recognize himself in the "leadership and pride" points, a soldier will value the "organized, group and ascerting one's dominance over others by strength" parts. Anyone who ever put his life on the line should be all over the "pragmatic and pride" parts.

So all these will have a tendency to turn into wolves, from both the way that they see themselves and the way society sees them. Also, the wolves embody some "middle ground" between man and beast. Monkeys aside, they are the closest beasts to humans, so the lycans who didn't go down the deep end before shifting should be usually closer to this beast.

I believe however, that the view the subject has of himself should be trump everything else. He completely fits the bill of a wolf, society sees him as a wolf, but he very, very strongly identifies himself with tigers? He should shift into a tiger.

So why all that text for nothing? I think it should serve to explain why most lycans shift into wolves, enough for humans to see the transformation into wolves to be the main transformation, name it after wolves, lycanthrope, and see the other transformations as oddities, exceptions.

Players, or notable NPC's should be free to have whichever transformation they so desire, because their desire, the way they see themselves, and the strength with which they see themselves, is the most important factor. And PC's and important NPC's typically have enough strength of character for it to trump everything else.

If one does not have any strong identification with an animal, and fits the bill of a wolf, he should shift into one.

This way, while there are all kinds of lycanthropes, wolves shoudl be the most common by far, followed by bears and tigers.

Spoiler: the three first steps explained a bit more correctly

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2)

(Not sure what exactly you mean by "taint". Is it the Lycanthropy itself?)

I really, REALLY wasn't clear there. And the term may be very wrong.

To me, Lycanthropy is the whole, the source is the source of the infection, and the taint are the traits specific to the individual which make him susceptible to the infection. The catalyst would be the incubation phase, and the trigger would be the decisive factor which would make the lycanthrope shift for the first time.

The source : There were some very, very good examples of sources, I may add that the source can have some different "infection values". For example, just looking at a full moon could be an infection source, albeit at a very low value. Being in direct contact with a werewolf could be at a very stronger value, being wounded by one even more so, and trading blood fluids with one even more.

The taint : I read a comic once about an infection that was spread by ideas and ideals. So, one of the main characters, which didn't believe in anything surnatural, was very rooted in reality, rational, and very resilient to attempts to make him accept the surnatural, could stand at the source of the infection, and yet be utterly inaffected by it. I would love lycanthropy to work a bit like that, metahumans have innate resistance to shifting, which can be stronger, or weaker depending on the individual. What weakens it is "the taint" the identification with a beast, the refusal of humanity, society and it's values, etc... Something that makes the subject closer to a beast. This, coupled with the strength of the source, determines whether or not one becomes infected with lycanthropy.

So, a very resilient person, which identifies himself very strongly as a human, could bed a werewolf, live with said werewolf for years, sire a werewolf son with his now werewolf wife, live with them for years, and then fight, get between a hinch of getting killed, and finally slay them both in an apocalyptical battle when his son loses himself in his first rage, and by sympathetic connection the his wife loses herself too, and all that without getting infected and becoming a lycanthrope himself. Because willpower.

Conversely, a kid who's been told that he's naught be a beast all his life, might develop lycanthropy by simply looking at the moon.

The catalyst : Ok, you're infected. By what, one tenth of a percent? Not enough to shift by far. You don't go from perfectly normal human to hairy hunk with unruled hair in a fortnight. The catalyst are a number of experiences, of thoughts, of desires, of views, of habits, which will make the catalyst distance himself with humanity, conversely, if the source of infection is very strong, it may spread by itself in the subject, causing his body to react violently, which could take the form of anemia, a weakened immune system, etc... The catalyst can be hidden. For example, you can be aware that something is wrong with you and repress it subconciously, or you can be aware that your views are starting to become something that society frowns upon and hide it. And all people who catch cold aren't going to be werewolves. Anyway, unless the source and taint are both extremely strong, the subject won't be able to shift right away, the infection needing to grow in strength before it reaches that stade.

The trigger : It coincides with point 3 so...

Spoiler: the fourth step in more details

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3)

I'm not sure I agree with you about the comparison to arboreals (But I'm no expert on them matter). But I think you may need to define beasts better. I think some can be arboreals as well? Anyway, Killing things empty handed is kind of the rule for most animals, no? Few use tools, fewer still use them to kill.

Or where you referring to the difference between beasts and humans? Anyway, I think that the specific trigger of killing a person empty handed is a bit too limiting. I'd think that something on the lines of "Kill someone out of instinct/ in the heat of passion, and not premeditated thought" should suffice. (May need some work). Shows a bit more the break down of the rules of man, compared to the instincts of animals, or a more primal nature.

Both points are about the trigger. First of all, to me, the trigger is mental, it's not an act, it's a desire. Also, it's a desire to "stop being human" in favor to become a "beast", the inner beast the infected starts to feel inside himself. By beast, I mean the primal, wild, unrestrained, uncivilized component of man, what is commonly associated with barbarians, and what mankind distances itself with in order to become "humane".

Indeed, arboreals are beasts, and humans are evolved from said beasts. The issue I was trying to bring up with that it that humans are immensely better at killing than lycanthropes. "Claws" and "Jaws" are awesome as primitive weapons, but spears beat them handily. So do slings (which are way less sucky in real life compared to video games), and don't even get me started on bows.

I think that lycanthropy, while giving you lots of awesome things (on top of some very nice street cred) it should, at least partially, take from you your ability to use weapons effectively. They should be specifically crafted for lycanthrope use, and some, which are particularly unsuited for paws, should be extremely rare. Using a bow with talons sticking out of your fingers suck immensely, and if you're not cat-base, they're not prehensile. And that's terrible. An organized group of humans, even lacking silver weapons, can hound a werewolf until he regenerative powers give out with a mix of close contact and ranged weapons, as well as tactics. Long story short, an 16th century militia will get slaughtered by a lycanthrope, in tiny alleys and during a night. Their numbers could however prove to be the lycanthrope's fall.

A division of legionnaires from Roma? Lycanthropes won't have the shadow of a chance.

The difference between man and beast is the use of a weapon. A lycanthropy infected warrior won't trigger a shift when trying to run through someone with his spear. Even in the midst of battle, his odds of shifting are pretty low, since he is still fighting as a human, with human weapons.

So, when I list three possible triggers "better able to kill empty handed" "better at hunting" "harder to kill" I don't say that a human sould only be able to shift for the first time while he is killing someone with his bare hands, or after the deed. Just that the desire to kill must be coupled with the failing of his humanity.

Argh, I can't seem to manage to make sense.

What I'm trying to say that the real trigger is powerlessness. Anger at the limitations of being human, and the desire to discard one's humanity if it allows discarding those limitations. The whole "killing empty handed" "tracking" and "survivability" are just the three limitations that lycanthropy allows to break.

Ok, still not making sense, so let's try a few examples :

The whole killing things deal :

A soldier in the middle of a formation, with companions, and arms and armor : no shifting

A farmer, pinned on the floor by a couple of soldiers while a third one creeps closer to his daughter : shifting

The whole tracking things deal :

Explorer with map, compass, and a few good friends : no shifting

Father desperately trying to find his daughter which went missing during a snow storm : shifting

The whole survivability deal :

Explorer half dead from thirst trying to hold on until he reaches the next spring he can see in the distance : no shifting

Anyone after a lethal wound : shifting

Since powerlessness and depair are subjective values, one may not shift after some horredous events, while another would, which allows for ambiguity.

Spoiler: bonus!

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4)

Side point : I like to make it so lycanthropy has a few weaknesses, like sympathetic resonance and pregnancy.

Let's go back to the werewolf wife of the resilient guy for examples.

Pregnancy : The weakness (not pregnancy!) can work for both sexes. Pregnancy for a woman has a huge impact on their body, and shifting during this stage could be lethal for the baby, or at least have some very detrimental effects. So the pregnant werewolf will stop being able to shift during this time, and may lose the ability completely forever. The only exception is if shifting is the only way to make the baby (before or after birth) survive.

ex: The lycanthrope mother stopped being able to shift during the whole pregnancy and the first seven years of her child's life, leading her to believe she had been "cured" of lycanthropy.

Sympathetic Resonance : The source of your lycanthropy still has an effect on you, and you have an effect on your source, even if said source is not a living being.

ex: a) A guy whose source of infection was the moon may be more susceptible to shifting during nights and even more during full moon nights. Conversely, if said guy goes into epic levels, he could be able to say "eff you" to the rules of physics, and summon a full moon when he shifts.

b) The lycanthrope mother was struck with huge despair and powerlessness, but being experienced she was able to take these without triggering a shift, but those feelings were transmitted to her son, which couldn't take these and shifted, losing himself. Conversely, her son't first shift, violent and in which he lost himself was transmitted to her, and that, coupled with the strength of her first shift in close to eight years, overcame her, leading to her own shift and her lost of self.

[Kol Korran]

First of all, all our points are valid, I am answering them in the hope of answering a few of your interrogations, clarifying my point of view, and helping you refine the product of this thread. The objective is not to invalidate them.

No problems, I didn't think you tried to dissuade me, I understood the valid and creative ideas for what they are! I like your ideas, they give the affliction a very interesting and compelling view! Thanks a lot for your ideas.

Spoiler: the species of the beast

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1)....

So why all that text for nothing? I think it should serve to explain why most lycans shift into wolves, enough for humans to see the transformation into wolves to be the main transformation, name it after wolves, lycanthrope, and see the other transformations as oddities, exceptions.

Players, or notable NPC's should be free to have whichever transformation they so desire, because their desire, the way they see themselves, and the strength with which they see themselves, is the most important factor. And PC's and important NPC's typically have enough strength of character for it to trump everything else.

If one does not have any strong identification with an animal, and fits the bill of a wolf, he should shift into one.

This way, while there are all kinds of lycanthropes, wolves should be the most common by far, followed by bears and tigers.

You got some excellent points there, and now I understand your argument much better. And I agree. In Eberron there are 12 moons, and originally I thought a bit video- gamey: Each moon should have it's own "beast form" attached, andthey should all be pretty equal and so on. But your idea that wolf form should be dominant, and a difference between the forms is much more believable, and creates a more interesting "tapestry of forms". (If that imagery makes sense?) Since I want Lycanthropy to have a history, both to the main meta humans races, but also to the four races presented in my OP (Gnolls, Centaurs, Ogres and shifters) then soem forms (out of the 12.. more or less) could fit the ancient people, and be perhaps less accessible to the current ruling meta humans.

Also, different races, with their different cultures might have a greater inclination to different forms than the wolves (For example- the stoic, often solitary, resilient and enduring dwarves might be more inclined to bear forms. While elves, with their grace, love of the woods, artistic and self sufficient nature might be more inclined to tigers. Yes, I know these are a bit cliche, but just for example).

the three first steps explained a bit more correctly
2)I really, REALLY wasn't clear there. And the term may be very wrong.

To me, Lycanthropy is the whole, the source is the source of the infection, and the taint are the traits specific to the individual which make him susceptible to the infection. The catalyst would be the incubation phase, and the trigger would be the decisive factor which would make the lycanthrope shift for the first time.

So, In a way to sum it up (Including further along points):
- The source: This is the Outside influence, the power in the world, not the individual, that may affect getting the affliction?
- The taint: The person's own susceptability to affliction, their own personality composition that may make them more or less prone to getting the affliction?
- Catalyst: Basically the process, in stages, that the person goes throgh from being "normal" to being "fully afflicted"? The start point and the pace are affected by both Strength of Source and strength of taint.
- The Trigger: The event in which an afflicted person "devolves/ ascend" (Depending on point of view) to a more bestial point of mind, and thus may trigger the final transformation and actual shifting.

This is... awesome in so many ways! I study medicine, and this has a high resemblance to "natural progress of diseases" in many ways. And it gives the PCs many things to explore, and many angles to get involved with! And it gives the affliction quite a bit of complexity. I love it! I will go into a bit more detail about the different components now.

The source : There were some very, very good examples of sources, I may add that the source can have some different "infection values". For example, just looking at a full moon could be an infection source, albeit at a very low value. Being in direct contact with a werewolf could be at a very stronger value, being wounded by one even more so, and trading blood fluids with one even more.

I come from D&D. I think that the source, in game terms might be inferred as A test DC to survive. Though I think that just looking at the moon won't be enough (As it is too common, even with a low Infection value). But perhaps certain rituals, certain magic, certain degree of injuries by a were creature, and more. Some of these can be represented by folk tales, and some protections may be gained against some common sources or the like. This has a lot f game potential.

It also brings in a plot relevance- I seek there to be 1-3 opposing lycanthrope groups (Of different compositions). At least one of them is/ has had a great effect on progressing Lycanthropy. This could be explained by introducing/ reviving/ enhancing some sort of a source. And this could be a goal that the PCs may try to counter. A tangible goal, more or less?

The taint : I read a comic once about an infection that was spread by ideas and ideals. So, one of the main characters, which didn't believe in anything surnatural, was very rooted in reality, rational, and very resilient to attempts to make him accept the surnatural, could stand at the source of the infection, and yet be utterly inaffected by it. I would love lycanthropy to work a bit like that, metahumans have innate resistance to shifting, which can be stronger, or weaker depending on the individual. What weakens it is "the taint" the identification with a beast, the refusal of humanity, society and it's values, etc... Something that makes the subject closer to a beast. This, coupled with the strength of the source, determines whether or not one becomes infected with lycanthropy.

So, a very resilient person, which identifies himself very strongly as a human, could bed a werewolf, live with said werewolf for years, sire a werewolf son with his now werewolf wife, live with them for years, and then fight, get between a hinch of getting killed, and finally slay them both in an apocalyptical battle when his son loses himself in his first rage, and by sympathetic connection the his wife loses herself too, and all that without getting infected and becoming a lycanthrope himself. Because willpower.

Conversely, a kid who's been told that he's naught be a beast all his life, might develop lycanthropy by simply looking at the moon.

This is good, since it again brings the person's own mental, emotional and spiritual making into effect. It brings some of the onus of affliction unto the afflicted themselves. This is great due to introducing prejudice, generalizations, and "character faulting" into the society in the game (and possibly the PCs). In short, it brings a much more social and behavioral aspect into the game, which just adds to the "shades of grey" nature of the game.

In D&D game terms, this may be referred as extra save bonus or penalty. Though I'm a bit hesitant about this, since there is already the will save and wisdom bonus to represent that, and I don't quite like attaching numerical value to such matters. (I can see the questions: "How much is child abuse worth?" and such) I may need to think of a better mechanic.

Yes, I could forgo all that for NPCs and just decide, but I'd like some way to judge impartially. It leads to welcome surprises in the game. And beside- PCs might get afflicted too. I need to think about this...

The catalyst : Ok, you're infected. By what, one tenth of a percent? Not enough to shift by far. You don't go from perfectly normal human to hairy hunk with unruled hair in a fortnight. The catalyst are a number of experiences, of thoughts, of desires, of views, of habits, which will make the catalyst distance himself with humanity, conversely, if the source of infection is very strong, it may spread by itself in the subject, causing his body to react violently, which could take the form of anemia, a weakened immune system, etc... The catalyst can be hidden. For example, you can be aware that something is wrong with you and repress it subconciously, or you can be aware that your views are starting to become something that society frowns upon and hide it. And all people who catch cold aren't going to be werewolves. Anyway, unless the source and taint are both extremely strong, the subject won't be able to shift right away, the infection needing to grow in strength before it reaches that stage.

Ok, This is interesting .I like the idea of a gradual process, one who has SOME predictability, but that can be mistaken with other things, and that can be hidden somewhat. Also, different rates of progress, depending on source and taint.

This leads to some lovely ambiguous investigations, witch hunts, and possibly trying to prevent shifting and/ or finding a way to cure someone. It can lead to awesome roleplay when an NPC someone cares for is suspected of being afflicted due to their behavior- can the diagnosis be confirmed? Can the shifting be prevented? What would others think? And so on... This is awesome!

the fourth step in more details
... Long story short, an 16th century militia will get slaughtered by a lycanthrope, in tiny alleys and during a night. Their numbers could however prove to be the lycanthrope's fall.

A division of legionnaires from Roma? Lycanthropes won't have the shadow of a chance.

This is actually a very interesting point. At the start of the campaign the setting is a sort of a wild west frontier, (Without the guns). So Lycanthropes might pose a serious threat. Later on the church the PCs work for might send in crusader forces, well trained, which may change the tide, depending on PCs actions and decisions. (Though they bring their own complications, mostly in a sort of a "scorched earth" policy) They WOULD have a far better chance against the lycans. Though I wish to have the lycans fight somewhat intelligently as well, through magic, fierce power, and lots of cunning as well. But this is a good point.

... Just that the desire to kill must be coupled with the failing of his humanity... What I'm trying to say that the real trigger is powerlessness. Anger at the limitations of being human, and the desire to discard one's humanity if it allows discarding those limitations.

This made your point clear to me.

The

whole "killing empty handed" "tracking" and "survivability" are just the three limitations that lycanthropy allows to break.

Hmmmm... so if I get it right, your suggested 3 triggers are in fact moments when the individuals is frustrated with their own "human limitations", and then seeking to abandon them in turn for beastial power. I like these, but I need to htink more of them. I 'm not sure these need to be the only triggers, and they seem a bit restrictive. I think they could be expanded somewhat? Perhaps something like this:
- "Seeking physicality of the beast": The beast does not just give power to kill, but physical power overall- greater strength, speed, endurance and more. Physically, beasts often surpass meta humans. So in any great need of their power, whether to kill, to run from/ to someone/ to lift great weight (to save someone?) or such, can be a trigger.

This can be themed by the great connection to sense of body and physicality of the lycans set of mind. The focus on the beast's raw physical form and power. The emphasis of body and instinct over mind.

- "Seeking senses of the beast": While you suggested heightened senses for the sake of tracking and such, I suggest somethign a bit more... spiritual. There is a common belief of "natural senses", a connection to the wild world, possibly even to some underlying natural order, nto easily seen by most. I suggest that Lycans may have a greater affinity to natural magic, but also to (super) natural senses. They do not only hear, see and smell better, but may have additional capabilities, such as sensing a life force, "Smelling"/ sensing someone's character, a more intuitive understanding of cosmic/ natural powers and so on.

So... This trigger may come from anyone who seeks to understand more, feel more, is frustrated by something they can't solve, figure out, comprehend. This may come from seeking the intuition, the senses, the understanding of the natural world, seeking to understand things more instinctively, as a beast does, than by logic and reasoning, as meta humans do.

- "Gift of Survival:" This is pretty much what you suggested by "freaking hard to kill"- An afflicted person may be willing to "give themselves" to the affliction fully for the sake of simply surviving. However, this can easily be the most triggered and "pushed forward to" form of a trigger, which in my opinion should make it a somewhat... "lesser trigger", which leads me to the following thought:

I don't think that the triggers are all the same. Lycans may often try to push people they want shifted towards this or that trigger, and in a way, the gift of survival may be the easiest (Especially with D&D rules). Also, it is the most desperate trigger, which leads me to think that different triggers may bring different kind of changes, though I'm not sure what kidn exactly. The two first triggers are more a matter of aware and consenting choice then the last one, so I think they should confer soem sort of a benefit.

How are they different? Not sure... Perhaps by power of the lycanthrope? Perhaps by ability to withstand further changes in the future? Perhaps by additional abilities or such? (Each trigger may give an added boon- physicality may give greater physical power, senses may give more senses, or more magical ability, and survivability more... survivability?) Perhaps the different trigger offers some sort of power/ status within Lycanthrope society? Where those choosing the gift of survival are more low class then the other two?

Side point : I like to make it so lycanthropy has a few weaknesses, like sympathetic resonance and pregnancy.

Let's go back to the werewolf wife of the resilient guy for examples.

Pregnancy : The weakness (not pregnancy!) can work for both sexes. Pregnancy for a woman has a huge impact on their body, and shifting during this stage could be lethal for the baby, or at least have some very detrimental effects. So the pregnant werewolf will stop being able to shift during this time, and may lose the ability completely forever. The only exception is if shifting is the only way to make the baby (before or after birth) survive.

ex: The lycanthrope mother stopped being able to shift during the whole pregnancy and the first seven years of her child's life, leading her to believe she had been "cured" of lycanthropy.

Pregnancy with Lycanthropy is quite interesting. Werewofl the apocalypse (As another forumist suggested) has some interesting poitns about that. It may be interesting to note that Changelings (from the setting, shapeshifters, a bit like doppelgangers) Can't shift drastically during pregnancy. i suggest maybe a limited form of shifting maybe? There is the issue of a lycanthrope bearing a child, a non lycanthrope bearing a child of a lycanthrope partner, two lycanthrope, and getting afflicted while pregnant, true lycanthroeps and pregnancy and more. It's a big issue, a very interesting one. Not yet sure of it yet.

Sympathetic Resonance : The source of your lycanthropy still has an effect on you, and you have an effect on your source, even if said source is not a living being.

Hmmmm... need to think about this one, but generally you're speaking about themes (From any of the stages) possibly carrying out to other areas of life, family, society and more ?Sounds reasonable, but more of a "case by case" basis. Unless you have something more specific in mind? I need to think about this...

Again, thanks a LOT for your input! This sounds like a great frame work to work from!

[Alberic Strein]

In no state to post a good answer, so just a quick point for tonight:

We could instead separate triggers in two families, the active and passive ones, both having a physical and mental one.

The passive ones, previously the whole "hard to kill" deal, would have specific conditions to trigger, and could not be intentionally triggered. It represents not the subject discarding his humanity in order to gain abilities, but the subject's body and mind failing, and the beast stepping up to the challenge.

Passive, Physical: Triggered by overpowering force dealt to the subject. It's not just the threat of dying, it's the absurd power of the assault. If in an attack (or turn, maybe) the subject receives 3/4 of his total life as damage, the beast emerges. So, a 3 attack damage which made the character go from -8 to -11, killing him, would not trigger the beast, but a powerful blow would. This also means merciful weapons now trigger the beast too.

Passive, Mental: Triggered by the emergence of particularly strong primal forces. Like a storm, or a natural catastrophe, like a tornado, or an earthquake. 19th century writers often described storms and other natural phenomenons of extreme power as mystical, divine. You could play that part up, the subject being caught up in powers so great they challenge his sanity, a bit like Poe's Maelstrom. Him more than any other, since he is particularly weak to the primal powers (else he would not have been infected). Also, there could be a bit of a merciful embrace of madness. A trauma so terrible, so mind breaking, the character flees inside himself, letting his beast take control.

The disadvantages could be : They're hazardous, triggering whenever conditions are met and not when the character wishes to. Unlike the active ones, the character is not simply aware but very influenced by his beast, he is NOT in control anymore. The difference between a normal Rage and the Berserker's Rage. Also, the Beast will act with survival as it's highest priority. It won't leave if it's going to be eating an AOO, but when not having it's escape directly blocked, it will flee. Which is not the greatest strategic plan.

Also, I used very negative terms regarding lycanthropy. I agree that it's value will depend on the subject's and the society's mental state and rules, it's not evil by itself. However, most of the words we have in our language regarding an infection, and the corruption of our self have inherent negative connotations.

[Heksefatter]

One interesting take on lycanthropy was in the old Sierra game, Gabriel Knight 2, the beast within.

I will put some of the psychology and nature of lycanthropes in spoiler, here below:

Spoiler

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Lycanthropes originate from some curse or dark pact, which creates the original werewolf. Those it infects are considered its beta werewolves and exist in some sort of unclear dependency from it.

Werewolves undergo a sort of psychological change after infection. They become bestial in one way or another, but it manifests in different ways, depending on how well you can cope. Most people become violent and irritable after infection. They rarely become frothing lunatics, but they can be mad nonetheless.

These are highly dangerous and may behave like intelligent versions of sick animals, animals who kill for no good reason. More rational werewolves often regard these as being necessary to "put down."

If a werewolf absorb its bestial side more fully, it becomes calmer and more rational. It still has a very inhuman perspective on things, however. It regards humans as something different from itself. It can kill easily, if it is practical, and may eat humans if they are convenient prey. Being less bound by human mores doesn't mean that it is bestial and uncouth in its behaviour. It just means that it has a more practical understading of them.

The werewolf also becomes more sensual. It feels things more keenly.

In the two below links, a werewolf and a hunter of supernatural threats discuss matters and the werewolf explains how it sees the world. (The hero doesn't know the werewolf is a werewolf, but he knows that there is a werewolf around.

Needless to say, massive spoilers for the game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVolxLNjx6I (From 7.00 forward).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dVfWXXg78 (The first 4 ½ minutes)

[illyahr]

This is actually sounding kind of like the manga/anime Claymore.

Spoiler

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Claymores are a group of women who take demon blood into themselves (the source) in order to use its power to kill true demons and protect civilians. They tap into that demonic blood (the taint) to increase their strength, speed, and overall power, but tapping into it too much causes the character to physically change to channel the power. Doing so too recklessly or too often (the catalyst) will cause them to rapidly shift into a new creature (the trigger) called an Awakened One that is a full monstrous demon with all the power, knowledge, and (twisted) control of the Claymore.

I would look into the series for ideas. They might help iron out some of your ideas.

[Kol Korran]

Spoiler

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In no state to post a good answer, so just a quick point for tonight:

We could instead separate triggers in two families, the active and passive ones, both having a physical and mental one.

The passive ones, previously the whole "hard to kill" deal, would have specific conditions to trigger, and could not be intentionally triggered. It represents not the subject discarding his humanity in order to gain abilities, but the subject's body and mind failing, and the beast stepping up to the challenge.

Passive, Physical: Triggered by overpowering force dealt to the subject. It's not just the threat of dying, it's the absurd power of the assault. If in an attack (or turn, maybe) the subject receives 3/4 of his total life as damage, the beast emerges. So, a 3 attack damage which made the character go from -8 to -11, killing him, would not trigger the beast, but a powerful blow would. This also means merciful weapons now trigger the beast too.

Passive, Mental: Triggered by the emergence of particularly strong primal forces. Like a storm, or a natural catastrophe, like a tornado, or an earthquake. 19th century writers often described storms and other natural phenomenons of extreme power as mystical, divine. You could play that part up, the subject being caught up in powers so great they challenge his sanity, a bit like Poe's Maelstrom. Him more than any other, since he is particularly weak to the primal powers (else he would not have been infected). Also, there could be a bit of a merciful embrace of madness. A trauma so terrible, so mind breaking, the character flees inside himself, letting his beast take control.

The disadvantages could be : They're hazardous, triggering whenever conditions are met and not when the character wishes to. Unlike the active ones, the character is not simply aware but very influenced by his beast, he is NOT in control anymore. The difference between a normal Rage and the Berserker's Rage. Also, the Beast will act with survival as it's highest priority. It won't leave if it's going to be eating an AOO, but when not having it's escape directly blocked, it will flee. Which is not the greatest strategic plan.

Also, I used very negative terms regarding lycanthropy. I agree that it's value will depend on the subject's and the society's mental state and rules, it's not evil by itself. However, most of the words we have in our language regarding an infection, and the corruption of our self have inherent negative connotations.

I would like the affliction to present a temptation, but the choice to shift or to convert (Unfair as the conditions may be) should still be the afflicted' choice. Inherently, it is up to the inflicted. It's the main moral point i want to introduce to the players- The acts are the acts of the afflicted' own personality and decision, but it is highly influenced/ his inhibitions stripped by the affliction. Where is personal responsibility Vs. the affliction's fault.

So I'd prefer not to have entirely passive triggers. But aware decisions. The affliction does not take over your mind, just puts more stress from one of it's components.

I'd also prefer into too much specifics at this point, but guiding principles. I'd like there to be leeway for the PCs (And NPCs) for creativity playing with the principles to figure out potential triggers and such. some examples may be made, but I'd prefer to keep them just as guidelines, not hard rules.

One interesting take on lycanthropy was in the old Sierra game, Gabriel Knight 2, the beast within.

I will put some of the psychology and nature of lycanthropes in spoiler, here below:

Spoiler

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Lycanthropes originate from some curse or dark pact, which creates the original werewolf. Those it infects are considered its beta werewolves and exist in some sort of unclear dependency from it.

Werewolves undergo a sort of psychological change after infection. They become bestial in one way or another, but it manifests in different ways, depending on how well you can cope. Most people become violent and irritable after infection. They rarely become frothing lunatics, but they can be mad nonetheless.

These are highly dangerous and may behave like intelligent versions of sick animals, animals who kill for no good reason. More rational werewolves often regard these as being necessary to "put down."

If a werewolf absorb its bestial side more fully, it becomes calmer and more rational. It still has a very inhuman perspective on things, however. It regards humans as something different from itself. It can kill easily, if it is practical, and may eat humans if they are convenient prey. Being less bound by human mores doesn't mean that it is bestial and uncouth in its behaviour. It just means that it has a more practical understading of them.

The werewolf also becomes more sensual. It feels things more keenly.

In the two below links, a werewolf and a hunter of supernatural threats discuss matters and the werewolf explains how it sees the world. (The hero doesn't know the werewolf is a werewolf, but he knows that there is a werewolf around.

Needless to say, massive spoilers for the game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVolxLNjx6I (From 7.00 forward).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dVfWXXg78 (The first 4 ½ minutes)

Interesting. I liked the links. The part about "getting back to one's primal self" can indeed become the philosophy of either true lycanthropes or afflicted ones, trying to stir pride in their situation or such. I like the end comparison between a natural animal and a man w3ho kills. That can be a good hint as to the true nature of lycantrhopes, and those who become fully savage.

Thanks!

This is actually sounding kind of like the manga/anime Claymore.

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Claymores are a group of women who take demon blood into themselves (the source) in order to use its power to kill true demons and protect civilians. They tap into that demonic blood (the taint) to increase their strength, speed, and overall power, but tapping into it too much causes the character to physically change to channel the power. Doing so too recklessly or too often (the catalyst) will cause them to rapidly shift into a new creature (the trigger) called an Awakened One that is a full monstrous demon with all the power, knowledge, and (twisted) control of the Claymore.

I would look into the series for ideas. They might help iron out some of your ideas.

I'm not quite sure this is similar... The source I can see, but the taint is supposed to be the personality make up of the character that makes it susceptible, the catalyst is the process they go to, and the trigger is not the shifting, but their own choice that drives them fully into lycanthrope stage... But I'll look into the series. Thanks!

[illyahr]

I'm not quite sure this is similar... The source I can see, but the taint is supposed to be the personality make up of the character that makes it susceptible, the catalyst is the process they go to, and the trigger is not the shifting, but their own choice that drives them fully into lycanthrope stage... But I'll look into the series. Thanks!

The source is the blood, the taint is tapping into the blood, the catalyst is being forced to tap into the blood too frequently or recklessly, the trigger is tapping into it past a certain point and losing control. It was described in-story as feeling like climaxing, which is why there are no longer any male Claymores.

[malmblad]

I would like the affliction to present a temptation, but the choice to shift or to convert (Unfair as the conditions may be) should still be the afflicted' choice. Inherently, it is up to the inflicted. It's the main moral point i want to introduce to the players- The acts are the acts of the afflicted' own personality and decision, but it is highly influenced/ his inhibitions stripped by the affliction. Where is personal responsibility Vs. the affliction's fault.

So I'd prefer not to have entirely passive triggers. But aware decisions. The affliction does not take over your mind, just puts more stress from one of it's components.

I'd also prefer into too much specifics at this point, but guiding principles. I'd like there to be leeway for the PCs (And NPCs) for creativity playing with the principles to figure out potential triggers and such. some examples may be made, but I'd prefer to keep them just as guidelines, not hard rules.

If you're looking for loose rules that offer hard choices, I would look off genre. Don't Rest Your Head uses Discipline, Exhaustion and Madness as sources for extraordinary character abilities. Depending on which attribute is dominate (i.e. which attribute you've been using the most) it affects the characters differently.

The mechanics aren't that compatible with a D20 game but you could lift the framework out and adapt it accordingly. Thinking about it... the character generation is very flavor oriented and could be altered to work in tandem with what you're looking to do with the players. If you can get your hands on a copy I would recommend taking a glance at it.