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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    I have a finished class, The Shang Warrior, which I would like feedback on, but first I need to find out whether or not it is actually legal for me to post the class. The basis for the class is taken from a series of books, in which the Shang Warriors are a special order. Does anyone know whether it is legal for me to post this class?

    (Note: There are several series in which the Shang take part, written by the author Tamora Pierce: Lioness Rampant and Protector of the Small having the most references. Read these books and others, Tamora Pierce is a good writer.)
    Last edited by Icewalker; 2007-03-12 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    I just re-read the entire "Rules of Posting" with this in mind, and I didn't find anything explicitly against it. It was based off of it, but I imagine the D&D /d20/what have you mechanics for it were never made? I'm not entirely sure, but I think it would be OK.

    I, after all, made a class based off of something from Kim Possible. And also one based off of Judge Dredd, but that was more loosely based.
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    no, it was never made (least I don't know about it), unless someone else made it like I just did, so I will post it, thanks for the feedback...now to go format it into the forums.....
    Last edited by Icewalker; 2007-01-29 at 02:09 AM.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Shang Warrior

    Shang Warriors have the following game statistics:
    Abilities: Shang Warriors primarily have high physical statistics: the strength, dexterity, and constitution needed to keep up with their extremely challenging training and following lives. Shang often have low intelligence, as they spend their entire younger life training to fight. Most Shang have relatively high wisdom, as they are trained with a moral code and learn common sense and simple decision-making. Charisma can be anything, although the Shang do not often need it.
    Alignment: Any non-chaotic, non-evil. Shang are often true neutral or neutral good, although some are lawful as well.
    Starting gold: 1d10gp (5gp)
    Hit dice: d10

    Class Skills
    The Shang Warrior’s class skills are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Ride, Search, Survival, and Use Rope.
    Shang Warriors get 2 + int modifier skills per level (x4 at first level)

    NAME OF CLASS
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Shang Prowess (+3), Weapon Mastery, Wanderer|

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Rapid Stand

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Shang Prowess

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Flurrying Strikes

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Flying Kick

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Shang Prowess

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Catch Arrows

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |Combat Trip

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Shang Prowess

    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Combat Disarm

    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |

    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Shang Prowess

    14th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |Disabling Strike

    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |Lightning Strikes

    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Shang Prowess

    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |

    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |

    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Shang Prowess

    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |Flow of Combat[/table]

    Class Features
    Wanderer: Shang Warriors never stay in one place very long. They are always wandering, and never settle down. The combination of always trying to travel lightly, as well as the belief that magic is a crutch, Shang may never own any magic items other than minor wearable objects that give no combat related bonuses, and also can not appear blatantly magical. Ex: a Shang could wear a vest that appears to be a normal vest and makes it so he only requires 1 hour of sleep each day, but he could not wear a vest of +1 to armor class, or anything that appears magical, such as an Ioun Stone of any power. This also means Shang cannot use any magical weapon or item that allows him to deal damage or avoid damage, although he may use items that will heal, (but will not heal himself in combat), and he can use any form of consumable, such as a healing potion (Although he will not use any potion that will give him combat bonuses). Shang do not like to have spells that enhance abilities cast upon them, but they will accept it if they feel it is needed for a battle ahead.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Shang Warrior is proficient with no armor, as they cannot use their techniques while wearing armor; they are never trained to use it. Shang are however proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as all exotic weapons that either originate or are used often on the material plane.

    AC bonus: A Shang Warrior is highly trained at dodging blows, as they cannot wear armor. Shang Warriors get a bonus to it’s AC of +1 at 5th level, and another every 5 levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, +4 at 20th level) (This is the same as the monk, so I suggest using monk table for easy reference)

    Unarmed Strike: Shang Warriors are extremely well trained at fighting unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so. At 1st level, a Shang Warrior gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A Shang’s strikes may be made from almost any part of the body, meaning a Shang may even make unarmed strikes with it’s hands full/ There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a Shang striking unarmed. A Shang may thus apply it’s full strength bonus on damage rolls for all it’s unarmed strikes. (See the class Monk for more information.) (This is the same as the monk, so I suggest using
    monk table for easy reference)

    Shang Prowess: Shang are amazingly strong, tough, and quick warriors. As such, their physical statistics are much higher than anyone else’s. At first level Shang Warriors improve all three of their physical ability scores (strength, dexterity, and constitution) by 1 point. Every 3 levels after first, they get an additional single point to place into any of the three physical ability scores. When they are deciding where to place this point, the ability score they choose must not be 3+ higher than either of the other two physical ability scores.

    Weapon Mastery: Shang Warriors are trained to use all weapons used or created on the material plane. Not only are they trained in all these weapons they are very well trained, better than most others. Every level, including first, Shang Warriors select one new weapon with which they are proficient. They gain Mastery of that weapon, which gives them +1 to hit and damage for every 2 levels of Shang Warrior. The Shang Warrior also has +1 to hit and damage with all other weapons he is proficient with, increasing to +2 at 7th level, and +3 at 20th.

    Fast Movement: At 3rd level, a Shang Warrior gains an enhancement bonus to his speed, as shown on the table. A monk in any armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed. (This is the same as the monk, so I suggest using monk table for easy reference)

    Rapid Stand: Shang Warriors are trained to rapidly roll to their feet if knocked prone, without allowing their enemies to take advantage of their position. At 3rd level, a Shang can stand up from the prone position as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

    Flurrying Combat: Shang Warriors are masters of hand to hand combat, and as such, can make far more attacks than anyone else. The Shang warrior gets twice as many attacks as any other class. When the Shang’s base attack bonus is +5, at 5th level, he can make a chain of two attacks, both at +5 to hit. At 6th level, with a base attack bonus of +6/+1, he can make a chain of 4 attacks, 2 at +6 and 2 at +1. When a Shang takes a standard action to attack, he gets two attacks instead of only one, and when he takes a full round action to attack, he gets twice as many attacks as are listed on his base attack bonus. When using a weapon, each of the Shang’s attacks count as two attacks, of the same BAB, so that he attacks at the same rate as other classes (+6/+1 instead of +6/+6/+1/+1). Shang may meld unarmed combat with weapons, with each weapon attack taking up two attacks of the same BAB, and each unarmed strike taking a single attack.

    Flying Kick: Shang Warriors may fly into combat foot-first to slam into an enemy’s face. This attack functions as a charge, except the kick counts as the Shang’s first two attacks in his chain of blows, and he gets a +2 to damage as well as the +2 to hit and -2 to AC. Charging and attacking is a full-round action that would only allow the Shang to make the 2 attacks he would gain during a normal standard action attack, however because the kick counts as 2 attacks, that is the only action the Shang can make in one turn, until he gains Lightning Strikes at 15th level, at which point he can make his full attack, with the kick counting as the first two strikes (Any attack bonus). Flying kick can not be replaced/added to with combat techniques.

    Catch Arrows: At 8th level, a Shang Warrior gains Catch Arrows as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

    Combat Trip: A Shang Warrior may replace one of the attacks in his chain of blows with a trip attempt, with the touch attack having a base attack bonus equal to the BAB of the attack taken to make the trip. He makes a trip attempt as normal, except Combat Trip does not provoke attacks of opportunity, nor does it allow the defender to make a responding trip attempt if the Shang fails.

    Combat Disarm: A Shang Warrior may replace one of the attacks in his chain of blows with a disarm attempt, with the BAB for your opposed rolls being the BAB of the attack being used to make the attempt. The disarm attempt is made as normal, except the Shang’s opponent does not get an attack of opportunity, and the Shang does not get -4 on his roll for being unarmed. The target may not make a responding disarm attempt if the Shang fails.

    Disabling Strike: A Shang Warrior may replace one of the attacks in his chain of blows with an attempt to disable his opponent. The Shang first makes a touch attack against his opponent, if the Shang wins, they make opposing strength checks. If the Shang wins this check, he has successfully broken/disabled the limb of his opponent. His target can no longer use that limb to hold objects, (dropping any weapon currently in hand), and the limb will not heal well (not sure how this should work) until the target gets a regeneration spell or someone (including him) makes a heal check DC 15+ the amount by which the Shang warrior won the strength check.

    Lightning Strikes: When a Shang Warrior reaches 15th level, he has gotten almost inhumanly fast in combat. A Shang with Lightning Strikes may make a standard attack (2 attacks) as a free action, and a full attack (all attacks) as a standard action. This does not allow the Shang Warrior to take multiple attack actions, but he may do other things as well in a round. Ex: A Shang Warrior with Lightning Strikes couldn’t make two attacks as a free action, then make his full attack as well with a standard action, although he can take a free action to make attacks, then a standard action to, say, drink a potion, and his move action to move normally.

    Flow of Combat: When a Shang Warrior reaches 20th level, he can flow with the battle, and whirl through a battlefield striking down many foes. A Shang Warrior with Flow of Combat may take a 5-foot step after every attack, unarmed or with a weapon, successful or a miss, a special technique (like disabling strike) or a normal attack. This 5-foot step does not count against his normal 5-foot step that round, nor does it stop him from making his normal move action.

    Ex-Shang: Shang warriors cannot multiclass, nor do they want to, as multiclassers just aren’t the kind of person who would become a Shang Warrior. If the lose the alignment they have to get an atonement spell before they can gain any more levels in Shang Warrior.


    So there you have it. The Shang Warrior. The class appears horribly overpowered, but the Shang Warriors are supposed to be the best trained fighters...well...ever, when compared to others of their experience. So I threw in Wanderer. I wanted to make it so they couldn't own weapons either, because then they could disarm people and beat them down with their Weapon Mastery, then leave the weapons once the battle was over, but I couldn't come up with a way to word it. If someone can, say so, I still think it would be cool if they couldn't own weapons.

    I'm looking for feedback, what do you thin?
    Last edited by Icewalker; 2007-03-09 at 07:42 PM.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Hey Icewalker

    I have also read and enjoyed the books by Tamora Pierce, and can see why you would like to make a Shang Warrior.
    As I see it the Shang Warrior is more like a monk, then a fighter. Wouldn't it be possible to tweak the exciting monk class instead?
    The reason for this comment is that the Shang Warrior as posted is to powerful, even though the class is restricted it still retains the fighters combat advancements and have relatively good saves.
    You are always faced with a dilemma when you make your own either race, class or prestige class - how will they function with the other classes, are they to powerful, are there exciting classes that already fill the bill, will they render other classes useless?

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Yeah, the Shang Warrior is based more off of the monk here, with the open hand attacks, move speed, and armor class bonus. I'm still not positive how to balance it, without removing some of the awesome stuff it gets. Maybe weaken Shang prowess, like once every 4 levels instead of 3. I've considered either making Shang Prowess a lot weaker, or removing it entirely, and replacing it with more things like disabling strike, so you could string out chains of special moves, because that would be really cool.
    Last edited by Icewalker; 2007-01-29 at 04:57 AM.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    No one else? I could use more feedback, and/or help on balancing it out.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewalker View Post
    No one else? I could use more feedback, and/or help on balancing it out.
    Well, I'm afraid our ideas of balance may too disparate for any comments I'd make to help.
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    It is extremely powerful, because you make physical stats a class feature rather than a class requirement. If you made it so that only the best can become Shang Warriors, rather than being a Shang Warrior making you the best, it would be better balanced.

    Of course, 3e did away with base class prerequisites besides alignment. And while there's no reason that this class couldn't reintroduce them, specifically requiring a certain ability score isn't considered 'proper'.

    I suppose you can't make it a prestige class, since Shang Warriors are trained from childhood or some such? It still needs something... Right now that first level looks like one heck of a tempting dip.

    Oh, but wait: "Ex-Shang: There are no Ex-Shang." Sorry, that's just way too restricting on roleplay. Nice idea, but it doesn't fit too well in a game. (What happens if one turns evil, for instance? "They can't" is the Wrong Answer.)

    In fact, super-duper warrior orders rarely fit well into a game where other character classes exist. The Jedi may be the classic example of this: a lot of effort has gone into the SWd20 game to make it interesting to play different sorts of Jedi alongside each other and non-Jedi, and the Jedi are still painfully far ahead of other characters. Or so I hear.

    Unless you put at least as much effort into making Shang Warriors workable alongside other classes, it just won't work.
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Well the general idea of no Ex-Shang is that none of them would ever want to become ex-shang, someone teetering on the edge of evil probably wouldn't go off and become shang in the first place. But you are probably right, I should add to that, like maybe they are shunned by people or something, as well as losing some ability...except with all of their abilities as physical training, I'm not sure how that could make sense...

    As to the balancing through requiring good scores instead of making them, That is a good idea, and thank you for the feedback.
    Last edited by Icewalker; 2007-01-30 at 01:51 AM.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    All I can say is that poor Ember from the PHB cries herself to sleep at night now. This is far too powerful, in a bad way. For example, the ability to make double the amount of attacks in one turn than would normally be allowed at no penalty, with the fighter BAB and the ability to use it as a standard action at higher levels? I'd be extremely surprised if anything that's not a primary fighter will survive a few rounds against a Shang. Add in Improved Trip and the Shang becomes unstoppable as a melee combatant. Start trimming it down.

    For example, use the current Flurry of Blows instead Flurrying Combat. Also, cut out Disabling Strike entirely, unless as a capstone ability, as two uses will render a fighter worthless, despite the fact that it is a fundamental application in many martial arts. Lightning strikes needs to go entirely as well, as it is broken in the most extreme sense of the word, without looking at epic wizards, of course. Combat Trip is also unbalancing, as I mentioned above, since a successful trip means that the Shang gets all the rest of its attacks with the opponent taking a -4 penalty to AC.
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Yeah, I just never really liked flurry of blows as much, but you're right on that. Lightning strikes isn't really anything special, using disabling strike as a capstone instead is probably a good idea. After that, maybe weaken Combat Trip? With the Wanderer restriction I think that would come out balanced, but I can clearly see I'm not a great judge of that. what do you think?

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    I have a slightly different complaint

    Why are you taking Liam Ironarm's personal preferences (prejudices, call them what you will) to represent the entire Shang order? Granted there are no, or almost no Gifted Shang, but that's because they haven't the time to train the Gift, as well as learning the Shang way. That doesn't mean that they all loathe magic in the same way as he does.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    I join the rest in terms of nerfing some of the abilities (flurry and disabling strikes come to mind) but I agree on the "there is no ex-Shang" part. That means as trained such from early childhood, the correct way to roleplay it would be, that one don't change alignments or go multiclass, it's not the matter that the players wishes it, it's just not the way his/her character thinks (if he/she chooses to be a Shang, anyway). Although magical changes of alignment may cause some problems, I suggest one doesn't lose the existing abilities, but cannot gain more levels in Shang anyway (until it's alignment changes back). You can make it even so, that multiclassing is only doable if your alignment is changed magically (requires good DM/player caution to not to be abused).
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Yeah, that would work for the ex-shang issue. And I think it does need to be weakened

    Ferreon, as to that on Liam he mentions that generally the Shang avoid magic, because they consider it a crutch. He just fears it personally. The magic thing with the class is just they prefer to avoid it when they can, but not neccesarily fear it.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Ok, I dunno about the class, but Dude! I wasn't aware there *were* any guys who read Tamora Pierce.
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    yup. Good books.

    By the way, does anyone know how to edit the thread title, if you can? I'd prefer to get rid of the (maybe) now.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Not sure. Editing the first post, maybe?
    Last edited by Phoenix Talion; 2007-03-12 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Nope doesn't look like it. I think you can't actually.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    The intelligence doesn't seem right. Alot of the shang warriors are quite intelligent. Wildcat, The Dragon, and The Unicorn are all intelligent, if not as intelligent as they are dextrous. Otherwise a very good summary of the shang warrior.
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Well, often not always. And I'd say that Liam and such actually would have an average intelligence, just a high wisdom, as intelligence is booksmart.

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    My thoughts, if I may ...

    1) This really feels like it needs to be a PrC ... by this I mean, core classes are, save for a very few cases, independent of any particular organization. Any "flavor" classes are, without exception, PrCs. In addition, you mean for this to be a very powerful class ... I'm not familiar with the series you reference, but to me it seems plausible that not everyone who attempts to become a Shang Warrior succeeds. In other words, the kids are trained as monks, and only progress to this PrC after extensive training, perhaps with a level of fighter.

    2) The primary "schtick" of this class seems to be a focus on internal excellence and natural talent rather than magical enhancement. This has been done twice before: once through the Vow of Poverty feat from The Book of Exalted Deeds, and once in the Oathsworn class from Arcana Unearthed. (Not a D&D book, but close enough.) You might want to review both of those for balance ideas.

    3) Chain of Blows is inordinately overpowered. I join the other voices in suggesting it use the Flurry of Blows rule instead, or, perhaps, treat it as Two-Weapon Fighting (i.e. at level 6, you get a +6/+1/+1 attack, at level 11 you get +11/+6/+6/+1/+1, as though the character was wielding two weapons and possessing the Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feats).

    4) In general, whenever there's an existing ability that approximates a new class skill, it's probably safer to go with that existing ability. For example, rather than "Combat Trip," just give them Improved Trip as a bonus feat. (The very same thing is essentially accomplished by the feat anyway.) Or, if you're absolutely wedded to the abilities, make Improved Trip and Improved Disarm prereqs for the PrC.

    5) There's little to no need to give them an "Instant Stand" ability, really ... anyone with a decent Dex and 10 ranks in Tumble is going to be able to essentially do it anyway (DC 25 Tumble check to stand up as a free action). Again, 10 ranks in Tumble is a good prereq for a PrC.

    6) Lightning Strikes is massively overpowered, since it essentially gives the Shang Warrior two combat rounds in one. Perhaps a better idea would be to give them Spring Attack for free?

    7) As others have said, "They can't because anyone who gets into this class wouldn't want to" is not a good reason. Players have free will to do whatever they want; in addition, since this class is all about physical/exceptional abilities (as far as I can tell), they can't really be taken away should the player leave the class. Others have suggested, and I concur, that leaving the class simply removes your ability to advance within it is the best way to handle all this.

    8) (Back to the beginning): if the "Wandering" thing is a matter of preference, you can't really make it a class requirement (unless this is meant to be an NPC-only class). Again, players have to be able to make whatever they want of a character. It is, of course, up to the DM whether or not to allow a character to advance in a class, and it would be within your rights to say that a player not upholding the ideals of the order would be ineligible for advancement, but that does have a touch of DM fiat to it, and IMO that's better avoided.

    Hope all this helps, and good luck!
    Last edited by Endless Bard; 2007-08-29 at 09:09 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Satyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Actually, I think the Shang would be presented best as a Fighter/Monk Gestalt, probably with an own (very hard to get) Prestige Class for those who can claim a supernatural animal namr, like Unicorn or Dragon.
    It would fit in the setting, as Alanna would probably represented best as a wizard/fighter Gestalt.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    I thought commoner kids were selected to be Shang warriors when they were seven? I didn't think they had much of a say. I wonder who chose them? Maybe there was, like, some sort of god. I also thought that many of them (especially girls) died in training, making it dangerous journey to become one.

    I'm writing fanfic about Shangs now, so I've been searching around for stuff people think of them. It's interesting that you don't think they'd be intelligent. I guess that would make sense if all their learnings focused on combat. I've always compared them more to Monks though. I would have thought intelligence would have been important to them (at least in terms of their God and fighting). I also don't like the lack of individuality--I guess that would make sense, since they're a classless group of people, but there is always at least one who sticks out a bit more than their supposed to... I don't think you've accounted for them in this class. It would be kind of boring if everyone were the same.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RogueGirl

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Has it been so long since anyone last posted? Did I waist my time in joining an empty chat room? Will it be another year till the next person post?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    That is an IMPRESSIVE contentless necromancy, on probably my worst homebrew on this forum. I'm all embarrassed now that this was brought back. Damn.

    I need to go make something new to validate myself with this being back on the front page.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icewalker View Post
    That is an IMPRESSIVE contentless necromancy, on probably my worst homebrew on this forum. I'm all embarrassed now that this was brought back. Damn.

    I need to go make something new to validate myself with this being back on the front page.
    I usually track down the old crud-tastic stuff I've made up, and provide a notice at the top along with a link to more current material along with a reminder not to resurrect. So far, it seems to have worked...

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    Jokasti's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    It's funny, because Shang Warrior rhymes with w---

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    Roland St. Jude's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Shang Warrior (maybe)

    Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't revive threads older than six weeks. Please review the Forum Rules regarding thread necromancy.
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