Kraagor's Death

[Forikroder]

The way this works is that the characters don't have items until it's shown or deduced that they have items.

It hasn't been shown and it can't currently be deduced, so Kraagor doesn't have those items.


Besides, he's dead. You can infer a floor where gods are lying down, and I can infer a dead guy from the battle with the Snarl and the Scribble members mourning around his statue.

Can't really think of a reason for him to be alive that wouldn't be accomplished by a better method, anyway.

Dorukon said "not until your clear" whatever he was casting Kraagor would ahve been caught in it too and Dorukon was sealing the rift so theres an extremely high chance that Kraagor was still alive after he cast the spell, furthermore the Snarl is weaker inside his prison then outside so the odds are actually pretty decent that Kraagar could survive

also i disagree with your first statement, even if theres no evidence either way if one can make a good argument that theyd have it then its reason to assume they do

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Personally, I agree that Kraagor is dead. I we just hypothesizeing how he would have survived if he had been stuck in Riftworld.

[Forikroder]

Personally, I agree that Kraagor is dead. I we just hypothesizeing how he would have survived if he had been stuck in Riftworld.

the more i think about it though the more i like him somehow surviving

makes me think of a really crazy theory

[Loreweaver15]

Dorukon said "not until your clear" whatever he was casting Kraagor would ahve been caught in it too and Dorukon was sealing the rift so theres an extremely high chance that Kraagor was still alive after he cast the spell, furthermore the Snarl is weaker inside his prison then outside so the odds are actually pretty decent that Kraagar could survive

also i disagree with your first statement, even if theres no evidence either way if one can make a good argument that theyd have it then its reason to assume they do

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people trying to prove that he has something we've never seen or heard about, not the other way 'round.

[orrion]

Dorukon said "not until your clear" whatever he was casting Kraagor would ahve been caught in it too and Dorukon was sealing the rift so theres an extremely high chance that Kraagor was still alive after he cast the spell, furthermore the Snarl is weaker inside his prison then outside so the odds are actually pretty decent that Kraagar could survive

You don't have anything to quantify "weaker" with. All you've got is the upper bound of power, which is enough to slaughter gods with. For all we know, the Snarl's power could get quartered and it could still kill Kraagor without thinking about it.

also i disagree with your first statement, even if theres no evidence either way if one can make a good argument that theyd have it then its reason to assume they do

Your definition of a good argument and my definition of a good argument diverge rather significantly.

[Forikroder]

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people trying to prove that he has something we've never seen or heard about, not the other way 'round.

and how do you expect someone to do that if you refuse to accept anything but hard evidence showing him using it?

You don't have anything to quantify "weaker" with. All you've got is the upper bound of power, which is enough to slaughter gods with. For all we know, the Snarl's power could get quartered and it could still kill Kraagor without thinking about it.

Kraagar was able to hold him back at the rift, if he got quartered then it would be Kraagars advantage or at least weak enough for him to escape

[Loreweaver15]

and how do you expect someone to do that if you refuse to accept anything but hard evidence showing him using it?

I don't, that's how :P You're suggesting something for which there is no evidence and for which there is no inference. I can buy the possibility of Kraagor being alive; it's be interesting. But the methods you're proposing rely on you making stuff up. You can't just say "It could work so since there's nothing explicitly saying it didn't we should assume he did that."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Somewhat related to the discussion: When I first read the strip featuring Kraagor's death, I thought Dorukan's spell had somehow turned him into a statue, and that the statue was the gate. Of course, looking back on it, the statue is facing the wrong way and has some kind of base, so that theory can't be right. I think it is interesting what can seem likely at one moment and then silly the next.

[jere7my]

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people trying to prove that he has something we've never seen or heard about, not the other way 'round.

There's no "burden of proof" in spitballing. If it's a possibility, it's a possibility; no hard evidence is required.

[Loreweaver15]

There's no "burden of proof" in spitballing. If it's a possibility, it's a possibility; no hard evidence is required.

Oh, I know. I was specifically addressing him saying "It could work so we should assume that's how he did it".

[Lord_Burch]

Kraagar was able to hold him back at the rift, if he got quartered then it would be Kraagars advantage or at least weak enough for him to escape

He hold off exactly one arm of the snarl, and that was probably with healing support from Soon and Lirian. And, even if he did, somehow, survive the rift being sealed over him, how would he be able to fight a running battle with a god-killing abomination for, what, 90 years now?

[jere7my]

Oh, I know. I was specifically addressing him saying "It could work so we should assume that's how he did it".

Ah, fair enough.

[Forikroder]

I don't, that's how :P You're suggesting something for which there is no evidence and for which there is no inference. I can buy the possibility of Kraagor being alive; it's be interesting. But the methods you're proposing rely on you making stuff up. You can't just say "It could work so since there's nothing explicitly saying it didn't we should assume he did that."

the snarl was partly outside its prison, Kraagor was outside the Rift (obviously) and Dorukon said he wasnt clear (as in he was in the area of effect of his spell) with this we can tell that his spll doesnt just grab the edges of the pull it closed like a curtain but creates a sphere (or some other shape) around the rift that pushs everything inside (or at least in some way forces stuff inside the rift) before sealing it

all evidence points to Kraagor being alive before the spell is case, Soon seemed to think at least that Dorukon was ready to cast and was holding it back for Kraagar to get free

since we know that Kraagar did not get free in time (on account of him not being there) that means he was still alive when they cast the spell, since he was not clear he would ahve been forced inside the rift along with the snarl

the inside of the Snarls rift nulls divine energy leaving the snarl weaker inside then outside, since Kraagar could survive it outside he must have been able to survive it inside as well

weve seen a planet, it has fresh water and green so theres a high chance of there being edible sustanance to sustain Kraagar and theres a few magic items that would have made it easy as well, and as a Dwarf he has a high life expectancy so its unlikely hed have died from old age

so theres actually a good chance of him being alive

[orrion]

and how do you expect someone to do that if you refuse to accept anything but hard evidence showing him using it?

You can't. Welcome to the point. Something isn't true just because it could have happened that way.

Kraagar was able to hold him back at the rift, if he got quartered then it would be Kraagars advantage or at least weak enough for him to escape

Alternatively, Kraagor wasn't able to hold the Snarl back at the rift, which is why he's dead.

You're using something that you can't prove happened as proof that something else happening afterward.


By the way, doesn't anyone think the Scribble would have tried to bring him back to life?

[Forikroder]

You can't. Welcome to the point. Something isn't true just because it could have happened that way.

its not false jsut because it may not have happened that way

Alternatively, Kraagor wasn't able to hold the Snarl back at the rift, which is why he's dead.

You're using something that you can't prove happened as proof that something else happening afterward.

im not saying either did or did not happen, im jsut discussing it to try to guess what might happen next

[orrion]

weve seen a planet, it has fresh water and green so theres a high chance of there being edible sustanance to sustain Kraagar and theres a few magic items that would have made it easy as well, and as a Dwarf he has a high life expectancy so its unlikely hed have died from old age

so theres actually a good chance of him being alive

Oceans aren't fresh water. Besides, to you the water shows the Snarl may not even exist anymore.

and as for the water, that shows that the snarl may not even exist anymore

So, by your own argument you can't have both. Either the Snarl exists and there's no water for Kraagor, or there's water and the Snarl doesn't exist.

Care to pick one?

[Forikroder]

Oceans aren't fresh water. Besides, to you the water shows the Snarl may not even exist anymore.



So, by your own argument you can't have both. Either the Snarl exists and there's no water for Kraagor, or there's water and the Snarl doesn't exist.

Care to pick one?

....................?

whats the point even bringing that up at all? theres obviously a planet there, and theres obviously water why are you trying to say its impossible for there to be no water for Kraagor?

[Cikomyr]

Also, Girard seems to hold Soon especially responsible for Kraagor's death/departure, which again wouldn't make sense if Kraagor was simply a victim of the Snarl. The only reason Soon would be held responsible for Kraagor's absence is if his instructions were the actual cause.

Like casting the Sealing Spell on the Rift while Kraagor was still nearby, catching him nearby?


Also, I disagree with the notion that Kraagor would have had to constantly fight the Snarl for all that time. After all, we don't know what's happening INSIDE the Rift, and how the Snarl behaves in his own prison universe.

Finally, like many, many people said: food and water are present in Riftworld, so sustenance wouldn't have been a problem. So please people, stop having your meaningless discussion about a Ring of Sustenance.

While I agree that the evidence shown so far is pointing out to Kraagor's death, I am saying that the evidence is foggier than previously assumed, and that it might end up playing a major plot point in the future.

Unless the Giant reads this thread, gets angry that I guess a plot point he planned ahead of time, and change it out of spite. Didn't he said he'd change stuff if we guessed it?

[Forikroder]

Also, Girard seems to hold Soon especially responsible for Kraagor's death/departure, which again wouldn't make sense if Kraagor was simply a victim of the Snarl. The only reason Soon would be held responsible for Kraagor's absence is if his instructions were the actual cause.

Like casting the Sealing Spell on the Rift while Kraagor was still nearby, catching him nearby?


Also, I disagree with the notion that Kraagor would have had to constantly fight the Snarl for all that time. After all, we don't know what's happening INSIDE the Rift, and how the Snarl behaves in his own prison universe.

Finally, like many, many people said: food and water are present in Riftworld, so sustenance wouldn't have been a problem. So please people, stop having your meaningless discussion about a Ring of Sustenance.

While I agree that the evidence shown so far is pointing out to Kraagor's death, I am saying that the evidence is foggier than previously assumed, and that it might end up playing a major plot point in the future.

Unless the Giant reads this thread, gets angry that I guess a plot point he planned ahead of time, and change it out of spite. Didn't he said he'd change stuff if we guessed it?

he has everything planned out so aside from act of (stronger) god nothing is changing in the story

[UristMcRandom]

Personal opinion: it looks like Kraagor is actually blocking the Snarl from grabbing Soon. Any chance that THAT's why Girard blamed Soon?

And yes, I know this is slightly off-topic.

[Forikroder]

Personal opinion: it looks like Kraagor is actually blocking the Snarl from grabbing Soon. Any chance that THAT's why Girard blamed Soon?

And yes, I know this is slightly off-topic.

Soon ordered Dorukon to cast the spell before Kraagar to get "clear" so thats likely it

[Everyl]

I don't feel like getting caught in the crossfire of another Orrion-Forikroder discussion today, so I'm just going to clarify my position and move on (unless this thread steers back to more civil conversation).

I think that Kraagor might be alive.

Spoiler: Wall of text

Show

I read the crayon comic about his death as saying that he was caught in the rift-sealing spell for the last rift, as a result of Lirian and Dorukan following Soon's order to cast before Kraagor was clear. This also helps explain why the OotScribble tore itself apart arguing after the gates were built - at least three of them participated to some degree in the (apparent) death of a fourth.

The fact that Soon and Kraagor were standing that close to the rift to begin with implies that they had a reasonable expectation of surviving at least a few rounds going toe-to-tentacle with one of the Snarl's tendrils. If the Snarl is indeed weaker in its prison than out, then it's possible that an epic barbarian might have survived the initial clash that would inevitably ensue once the last Gate was in place. Dwarves have long lifespans, and there are numerous ways he might have survived, some based purely on the comic (green landmasses seen through Soon's Rift imply vegetation, the clouds over the Riftsea seen through Girard's Rift imply freshwater precipitation, and Survival is a class skill for barbarians) and others based on D&D rules speculation (magic items). Furthermore, Kraagor being alive would prevent his resurrection just as effectively as him being unmade by the Snarl.

So there is a plausible scenario in which Kraagor could have survived, based on what is known so far. Is it the only way that things could have happened? Hardly. The OotScribble certainly thought he was dead, and they might have good reasons for believing that besides what we've seen. The information we have is far from complete, and there are years of updates yet to go - I'd be surprised if we get good answers before the final act. One-in-a-million chances have this way of defying probability if the plot calls for it (), and I think it would be a pretty cool twist if, when the Order does finally track down a surviving member of the Scribble to regale them with critical exposition, it's completely-unexpected Kraagor instead of Serini.

That being said, the theory is just a theory. It's speculation, based on what we've seen so far and extrapolating a little beyond that. Some speculation turns out to be accurate, some doesn't. I'll deal with it the same way I deal with all other speculative theories I read and/or come up with: by continuing to read the comic, and enjoying it whether the speculation turns out to be right or wrong.

[SlashDash]

How can Kraagor survive? Easily, if the Giant wanted it that way it would happen. The technobabble can easily go either way on this one.

For the record, it's not really unheard of and as a plot arc was used quite often in other stories.
Big thing of "nothingness" devours something and then that something takes it over it slowly.

He wouldn't be with the Snarl, he would be become one with it.




But of course, that doesn't mean anything. The story can really go either way.

[MrMercury]

Uh, the amount of health you have does not indicate that you can survive against anything. A spell like Destruction or Implosion will kill someone if they have 5 health or 500 health if they fail the saves.

Both spells were actually demonstrated by Redcloak

[Hopeless]

No, it said "Some have theorized since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

Low epic is not equivalent to the gods.

Two points of interest;

1) Kraagor isn't a god... he's a dwarf and they're notoriously tough, argumentative and much more likely to be eating the Snarl than vice versa...

2)I think the reason Girard was p***ed is because Soon didn't mention his wife using divination magics through the rift until they did!

Also except Lirian's gate there was nothing to suggest the Snarl appeared at any until the last gate suggesting something they did there provoked the Snarl.

It wouldn't have been the first time a Paladin forgot to mention stuff that important!

[DeliaP]

That being said, the theory is just a theory. It's speculation, based on what we've seen so far and extrapolating a little beyond that. Some speculation turns out to be accurate, some doesn't. I'll deal with it the same way I deal with all other speculative theories I read and/or come up with: by continuing to read the comic, and enjoying it whether the speculation turns out to be right or wrong.

Do you mind if I sig that??

[Snails]

No, it said "Some have theorized since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

Low epic is not equivalent to the gods.

The gods themsleves do not necessarily have more class levels than a low epic character.

[Snails]

How might Kraagor have survived being sealed into the Snarl's prison-dimension? Well, "... The Snarl clawed and scraped at its dark prison, but it could not break free on its own. In that demiplane, its divine energy was nulled, leaving it weakened."

Based on that quote, it's entirely possible that inside one of the rifts is actually the safest place to fight the Snarl from. Depending just how thorough the "nulling" of its "divine energy" is, it might not be able to "unmake" opponents - or even hurt them at all - inside its prison.

Nice catch.

[Sir_Dr_D]

You know it is always possible that Kragaar is only spirtually alive, trapped in the embodiment of the snarl. I am not sure even the order of the scribble understood what happens when the snarl consumes someone.

[Lombard]

I think it is unlikely though not impossible that K-dude is alive in there.

That being said, for me it would be 100% pure awesomeness if he did live and had to like.. battle stuff and survive for all these years like Robinson Crusoe and is now like a level 30 barbarian with 500+ hp and all the Rage feats etc.