How It Should Be: The Paladin

[barawn]

Honesty
The Paladin has foresworn lying, for any reason. He loses all aspects of this mantle if he ever willingly makes a Bluff check for any reason other than to feint in combat, if he ever uses the Forgery skill, or if he ever lies.

What's the point of excluding just 'feint in combat'? There are a few other uses for Bluff in combat - Fade Into Violence, distraction to hide - so it seems that it would either make sense to just say "no Bluff checks, period" or "no Bluff checks outside of combat actions (e.g. feint, causing a distraction)".

Personally, I'd put "Bluff checks in combat" as part of "honor". Kicking a stone and running away and hiding doesn't seem very Honorable to me. Neither does cowering like a little girl so that they attack your friend. Of course, they don't seem very honest, either, so, who knows.

[Fax Celestis]

That may be altered.

[Telonius]

You can, but do note that I'm currently working on making this Paladin into multi aligned (LG/CG/LE/CE).

Hm. Well, one thing I can immediately think of is to alter the text to make it so the Paladin must take at least one alignment component of its deity; the paladin's other alignment component must be either good or lawful. You could make some other Mantles of Faith (like Deceit, Dishonor, Slaughter, Greed, etc.) only available for evil-aligned paladins. Some of the Mantles could be for any alignment (such as Conviction).

[Quellian-dyrae]

Awesome idea. Some of the mantles, though, might need revision. I would remove the add ability bonus to stat abilities (except Cha to saves). I think one of the most easily exploitable power plays is one that allows you to add another ability score to a stat; even substituting ability scores can be quite powerful when used properly. This becomes especially critical when the stat bonus can also apply to allies.

Also, you may want to make sure that no stat can be boosted more than once. In particular, I'm looking at the stacking potential of Humility and Prudence.

I am unsure of Charity...20% of your wealth basically means 20% of your magic items, which is a stiff price for a Diplomacy boost and some Charm powers. I would suggest rewording Grace so that the paladin loses it if it flees a battle before all allies have retreated to safety, otherwise you are basing the paladin failing its oath on something it really has no control over.

Temperence seems a little odd, since ranged weapons are most useful in the first round of combat.

I hope these suggestions are useful.

[Fax Celestis]

Awesome idea. Some of the mantles, though, might need revision. I would remove the add ability bonus to stat abilities (except Cha to saves). I think one of the most easily exploitable power plays is one that allows you to add another ability score to a stat; even substituting ability scores can be quite powerful when used properly. This becomes especially critical when the stat bonus can also apply to allies.

Also, you may want to make sure that no stat can be boosted more than once. In particular, I'm looking at the stacking potential of Humility and Prudence.

As sacred bonuses, benefits provided by different mantles do not stack. Humility and Prudence are a unique circumstance, and that may deserve alteration.

I am unsure of Charity...20% of your wealth basically means 20% of your magic items, which is a stiff price for a Diplomacy boost and some Charm powers. I would suggest rewording Grace so that the paladin loses it if it flees a battle before all allies have retreated to safety, otherwise you are basing the paladin failing its oath on something it really has no control over.

Diplomacy is one of the best skills out there. Further, charm SLAs are nothing to laugh at. Also, these mantles are supposed to be difficult to maintain, not easy.

Temperence seems a little odd, since ranged weapons are most useful in the first round of combat.

See last comment re: difficulty.

I don't mean to be short (and in fact appreciate your commentary); I am merely providing the rationale I used when creating this.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Yeah I see your theories. It will probably work fine in most cases, where players are choosing their mantles based on how they want the paladin's vows to work (I really love how you did that, by the way). I was mainly talking about a strict stat-for-stat, power playing perspective. That's why the stat boosts worry me, not so because of stacking (I think the only potential stacks I see, aside from Prudence and Humility, are to saving throws anyway), but just because they let you add another ability modifier to a stat. As a power player, I'd take Honor and Humility as my first mantles in a heartbeat. As for Charity...use the gold you're saving to buy an item that gives you +10 to Diplomacy and another one that lets you cast Mass Charm Person 2/day ::grin::.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah I see your theories. It will probably work fine in most cases, where players are choosing their mantles based on how they want the paladin's vows to work (I really love how you did that, by the way). I was mainly talking about a strict stat-for-stat, power playing perspective. That's why the stat boosts worry me, not so because of stacking (I think the only potential stacks I see, aside from Prudence and Humility, are to saving throws anyway), but just because they let you add another ability modifier to a stat. As a power player, I'd take Honor and Humility as my first mantles in a heartbeat. As for Charity...use the gold you're saving to buy an item that gives you +10 to Diplomacy and another one that lets you cast Mass Charm Person 2/day ::grin::.

Even with that being the case, you'd still have a case of MAD. A Paladin under this system needs STR to be effective in combat, CON for resiliency, WIS for spells and some mantles, and CHA for turning and some mantles. Most classes are two-stat dependent: Barbarian (Str-Con), Sorceror (Int-Cha), and Rogue (Dex-Int), for instance. Other classes are single-stat dependent: Wizard (Int). The only other four-stat dependent class in Core is the Monk (with Str-Dex-Con-Wis). Branching out of Core, you also get the Duskblade (Str-Dex-Con-Int), the Spellthief (Dex-Int-Cha), and the Spirit Shaman (Int-Wis-Cha), just to name a few.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I dunno. My experience is that adding ability scores to stats is very powerful. It's one of my favorite power playing tactics, leastwise. I suppose the overall effect probably won't be too much more dire than a fighter with all the weapon feats (including the PH2 ones), they just always leap out as one of the more exploitable abilities in the game. Maybe it's just me.

One way or another, I would suggest looking over the ones where the allies get the bonuses too. I mean, I'll be the first to say that D&D could use a few more abilities for aiding and, in particular, defending your allies, but at the same time I can't help but imagine a Temperance/Humility paladin with a maxed out Cha standing beside an archery style ranger with a maxed out Dex.

[Shazzbaa]

One way or another, I would suggest looking over the ones where the allies get the bonuses too. I mean, I'll be the first to say that D&D could use a few more abilities for aiding and, in particular, defending your allies, but at the same time I can't help but imagine a Temperance/Humility paladin with a maxed out Cha standing beside an archery style ranger with a maxed out Dex.

I rather think these are good things. If the ranger's getting a massive boost from the Paladin's Temperance, then the rest of the party isn't going to complain every battle when the paladin hangs back for a round.

I find it interesting that, while most people try to ease up on the paladin's restrictions, this version's actually striving to keep it strict without making the paladin impossible to play (or, impossible to play without the rest of your party hating you). I'd actually be interested to see this variant in action.

[Proven_Paradox]

I really, really like this varient, and I'll be introducing it to my players as soon as I can get a computer to help me run my games again. I'm especially glad that you liked the capstone that Eigth and I worked one (though I still like the name "Ascendance" better, but whatever you want to call it).

I never really got the idea of the special mount for paladins. While we're customising the paladin and giving them more options, perhaps we could consider taking the automatic special mount away and making it a feature granted by a mantle? This paladin, when played right, it already going to be really really powerful, especially next to other core melee classes, and I don't think this would be a particularly big blow to them power wise. Maybe they could get spellcasting buffs if that really bothered you.

[elliott20]

I actually like this variant enough that if I get to run a game or participae in one I'm gonna try to work this in somehow.

[Fax Celestis]

I would direct everyone's attention to v2.0.