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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    So was playing around with the monster advancement rules and it registered to me how ridiculous it was that 4 humanoid hit dice = 1 CR. This is a problem that typically is true of all of the hit dice CR advancement, but the idea that 4 blank hit dice is equivalent to a class level is... well kind of silly. I mean, obviously it's still worse than a caster... but if you took nothing but hit dice, you're almost certainly beating the snot out of any fighter or rogue type character.

    So I decided to turn it into a class table and see what happens.


    The Humanoid


    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1 +3 +1 +4 +1 Bonus Hit Dice
    2 +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 -
    3 +9/+3 +4 +8 +4 -
    4 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 -
    5 +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 -
    6 +18/+13/+8/+3 +8 +14 +8 -
    7 +21/+16/+11/+6 +9 +16 +9 -
    8 +24/+19/+14/+9 +10 +18 +10 -
    9 +27/+22/+17/+12 +12 +20 +12 -
    10 +30/+25/+20/+15 +13 +22 +13 -
    11 +33/+28/+23/+18 +14 +24 +14 -
    12 +36/+31/+26/+21 +16 +26 +16 -
    13 +39/+34/+31/+24 +17 +28 +17 -
    14 +42/+37/+32/+27 +18 +30 +18 -
    15 +45/+40/+35/+30 +20 +32 +20 -
    16 +48/+43/+38/+33 +21 +34 +21 -
    17 +51/+46/+41/+36 +22 +36 +22 -
    18 +54/+49/+44/+39 +24 +38 +24 -
    19 +57/+52/+47/+42 +25 +40 +25 -
    20 +60/+55/+50/+45 +26 +42 +26 -

    Hit Die-d8
    Class Skills-The Humanoid has no skills treated as class skills.
    Skill Points at first level 14+7*intelligence modifier
    Skill Points at each additional level 8+4*intelligence modifier
    Weapon and Armor proficiency-The Humanoid is proficient with all simple weapons, and all armor and shields, including tower shields.

    Class Abilities:

    Bonus Hit Die-Every level of Humanoid grants 3 additional bonus humanoid hit dice. These hit dice provide all normal benefits. The bonuses to BAB, Saves, and Skill Points are accounted for on the Humanoid's class table. Each hit die also gains the Humanoid's constitution modifier as a bonus to HP as any other hit die. These bonus hit dice also grant stat increases and bonus feats as normal. As normal, a humanoid that exceeds 20 hit dice qualifies for epic feats. For a single classed humanoid, this happens at level 6.

    Spoiler
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    Short, simple, to the point. He gets one class feature, but it makes enough impact to singlehandedly render everyone without spellcasting obsolete.

    So a single classed humanoid gets 80 hit dice, with 60 BAB, ridiculous saves, gains effectively 1 bonus feat every level (including 15 epic feats) in addition to his normal level up feats, and gains 1 stat boost every level.

    As far as I can tell, the BAB and Saves are legitimate, as the Epic BAB/Save progression only kicks in above level 20, not above 20 hit dice. See: Numerous examples of monsters with more than 20 hit dice with normal BAB and saves. though changing that drops the BAB down from 60 to 45, it brings the 'bad' saves up from +26 to +36.

    It also doubles as a pretty decent skill monkey despite having no class skills. At 4hd per level its cross class skills still grow at double the rate of any other class's class skills, and getting 8+4*int mod points per level lets it have effectively 4+2*int skills being increased to the normal cap, or half that number being brought up to absurd levels. Good feat selection and/or a dip into rogue/factotum makes the skills far more effective.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2014-04-04 at 01:47 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    For 10 years now, I have had the same argument with one of my players regarding the ridiculous humanoid hit dice/CR ratio....this puts my point so simply that I must thank you for giving me a definitive debate winner, can't wait until Sunday...

    I love the fact that it's so truly absurd and yet so absurdly mundane...epic feats from level 6 onwards....awesomesauce
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Don't forget that it gets +1 to one ability score every level.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    I laughed way harder than I should have at this.

    Also, this class is also flat-out better than a fighter in literally every way. It's wonderful.

    I would seriously consider taking 1 or 2 levels in this class for even some caster builds.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2014-02-20 at 07:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I laughed way harder than I should have at this.

    Also, this class is also flat-out better than a fighter in literally every way. It's wonderful.

    I would seriously consider taking 1 or 2 levels in this class for even some caster builds.
    Yeah, it's totally worth it, especially with Practiced spellcaster. Dip in for a level, use the feat you gain from the dip on practiced spellcaster, gain +1 to your int, and you'll even have early access to Epic Spellcasting.

    Don't forget that it gets +1 to one ability score every level.
    Yeah I mentioned that in the spoiler I think. It really is pretty crazy.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Interestingly, despite that it doesn't technically give a bonus feat every level (it gives your normal feats every three hit dice, and of course every level will include more than three hit dice), it does add up to the same thing - the points where you pass two multiples of three hit dice in one level, getting two feats that level, come every third level.

    Of course, this is the sort of thing that'd be interesting to some people and a mathematical "duh" to others.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Okay, someone has to make a stat block for a level 20 humanoid. I can only barely visualize it in my head.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    The table above, plus feats as expected for any noncaster, plus one extra feat per level beyond normal feats. Your choice what direction to go in with all that - skills are a possibility, any of many martial options are possible... you could probably put something crazy together just with the ToB or MoI feats that were made to let non-initiators or non-meldshapers have a taste of it.

    And that's without the 9th-level-spells-on-a-Commoner-via-feat-chains build. You could do that and then just get lots of extra spells and boosts to them...

    Oh no... could this actually beat out a caster by weight of numbers?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Oh no... could this actually beat out a caster by weight of numbers?
    Probably not. You can still only prepare feats & items against only a subset of no-save-just-lose spells.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    The feat-only mage combo becomes actually viable with this many feats available. I'll make one slightly less abusive. Start as human (Halruaa or Nimbral).

    {table]Level|Feats|You need...
    1|Magical Training, Precocious Apprentice, Earth Sense|Int 10, Int/Cha 15, Con 13, Wis 13
    2|Practiced Spellcaster|Spellcraft (4)
    3|Heighten Spell, Earth Spell|Con 13, Wis 13
    4|Arcane Disciple|Know (relig) (4), Spellcraft (4)
    5|Sanctum Spell|CL 4
    6|Extra Slot (lvl 3), Extra Slot (lvl 4)|CL 4
    7|Extra Slot (lvl 5)|CL 4
    8|Extra Slot (lvl 6)|CL 4
    9|Extra Slot (lvl 7), Extra Slot (lvl 8)|CL 4
    10|Extra Slot (lvl 9)|CL 4[/table]

    If there's a way to qualify for regional feats without being from that region, that would make this noticeably faster, but it's not bad as-is.

    Magical Training grants sorcerer casting of 2 spells 3/day at CL 1. Taking precocious apprentice grants one level 2 slot of any school. Practiced Spellcasting makes your CL 5 at level 2). Picking up Earth Spell grants auto-heightened spells in earthy places, and Sanctum Spell grants auto-heightened spells in your Sanctum, so at level 5 you can technically cast a 4th-level spell, which means that when you pick up the Extra Slot feat (standing in an earthy sanctum), you can get a 3rd-level slot with it. Arcane Disciple gives you a spell for those slots, so gaining a new slot gives you a new spell which counts as its level + 2 and thus allows you to take another Extra Slot at the next level. Lather, rinse, repeat for 9's at level 10 (albeit without any 1st-level slots).

    At this point, you could branch out into DMM by taking the two feats in Dragon that grant 1 turning attempt (pick a domain with crazy buffs and go at it), or you could start getting spell slot buffs (dragon disciple maybe? You can afford to sandbag a little), or you could head straight into epic casting with Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity.

    EDIT: You can do a similar thing with Minor Divine Spellcaster (Dr #305), but Precocious Apprentice and Arcane Disciple don't work for that (you'll need to find some workaround).
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2014-02-21 at 02:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    So can he attack 12 times in a full action at Lv 20, or do iterative attacks cap at 4?
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    So can he attack 12 times in a full action at Lv 20, or do iterative attacks cap at 4?
    I believe iterative attacks cap at 4, but I haven't found an example of a monster with 21+ BAB using a weapon to be sure.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    So can he attack 12 times in a full action at Lv 20, or do iterative attacks cap at 4?
    They cap at 4. In fact, the BAB on the table is wrong - at 21st level, and each level thereafter, you simply get a +1 epic bonus to attack rolls.

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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    They cap at 4. In fact, the BAB on the table is wrong - at 21st level, and each level thereafter, you simply get a +1 epic bonus to attack rolls.
    Yes, and you don't get there until you actually take 21st level. A first-level Humanoid isn't level 4, they're level 1 with 4 HD.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Looking through Monster Manuals I found an Eldritch Giant Confessor (BAB +26) which only gets 4 attacks.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Yes, and you don't get there until you actually take 21st level. A first-level Humanoid isn't level 4, they're level 1 with 4 HD.
    I'm kind of assuming The Humanoid follows the normal rules for humanoids, here. The Humanoid's class level is the humanoid's CR, and the Humanoid's HD is the humanoid's HD.

    The class also says that The Humanoid is treated as epic at sixth level, so I would assume he therefore starts getting epic bonuses and stops getting BAB.

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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    They cap at 4. In fact, the BAB on the table is wrong - at 21st level, and each level thereafter, you simply get a +1 epic bonus to attack rolls.
    I actually addressed this in the spoiler.

    The +1 epic bonus to attack rolls every other level only applies to character levels above 20. You'll notice every monster in the MM that has more than 20 hit dice continues their BAB and Save progressions as normal, rather than using the Epic Attack/Save bonus progressions.


    Just a quick example: The tarrasque has 48 magical beast hit dice. Magical Beasts have Good BAB, Good Fort, and Good Reflex.

    The Tarrasque has a BAB of +48, and a Base Will of +16.

    If Hit Dice above 20 followed the epic progressions, its BAB would have gone up to +20, then had a +14 epic bonus, for a total of +34. The Base Will would have gotten to +6 by 20, then gotten a +14 epic bonus for a total of +20.

    This same pattern repeats throughout every monster over 20 hit dice in any book. It's clear the epic progression rules only apply to BAB/Saves gained from character classes. What is less clear is what the BAB from those hit dice do with iterative attacks.



    If this class had an epic progression, the bonus hit dice would still provide their normal progression, while the class levels would be swapped to epic progression. So it would end up looking like:

    {table=head]Level | Hit Dice | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will
    20 | 80 | +60 | +26 | +42 | +26
    21 | 83 | +62 | +27 | +43 | +27
    22 | 86 | +65 | +29 | +46 | +29
    23 | 89 | +67 | +30 | +47 | +30
    24 | 92 | +71 | +32 | +50 | +32[/table]

    And the bonuses from those 4 levels would repeat cyclically.



    Of course if you were just getting hit dice instead of a class giving bonus hit dice as a class feature, this wouldn't happen at all and the next 80 hit dice would be just like the first. But it is what it is.


    The class also says that The Humanoid is treated as epic at sixth level, so I would assume he therefore starts getting epic bonuses and stops getting BAB.
    The prerequisite for Epic Feats is 20 hit dice, not 20 class levels. Which is why at level 6 when you reach 24 hit dice, you qualify for epic feats. That has no impact on how the bonuses are calculated, because that is tied to a completely different set of rules.
    Last edited by Seerow; 2014-02-21 at 01:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Just saw this amusingly terribad thread, and figured I'd chime in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    What is less clear is what the BAB from those hit dice do with iterative attacks.
    Solars have BAB 21+ and four attacks, for what that's worth. So do ELH's glooms, hoary hunters, leShays, and elder titans.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Just saw this amusingly terribad thread, and figured I'd chime in.



    Solars have BAB 21+ and four attacks, for what that's worth. So do ELH's glooms, hoary hunters, leShays, and elder titans.
    That settles that then. For some reason I thought Solars had only 20 hit dice, and I didn't want to dig through ELH monsters (and honestly figured none would use weapons anyway. Shows what I know)
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    The rules for BAB specifically state that the maximum number of attacks from BAB is 4.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    How would this class interact in a trisalt? Thinking Perfectionist, but would it turn all the HD into D12's, or would it just be 12+24 HP per level? And how would the BAB and other saves interact?

    Just want to make sure is all.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimsage Matt View Post
    How would this class interact in a trisalt? Thinking Perfectionist, but would it turn all the HD into D12's, or would it just be 12+24 HP per level? And how would the BAB and other saves interact?

    Just want to make sure is all.
    This just in: Paragon creature//Perfectionist//humanoid.

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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Shouldn't it be two additional hit dice not three, because otherwise your getting 4 hit dice per level?
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Makes me think of Pathfinder's rules for advancing monsters. For just +1CR you get
    AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less).
    So instead of adding five barbarian levels to your large, dumb beastie, just give him a +20 to everything!
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Socksy View Post
    Makes me think of Pathfinder's rules for advancing monsters. For just +1CR you get


    So instead of adding five barbarian levels to your large, dumb beastie, just give him a +20 to everything!
    that means +10 to hit, +10hp/lvl, +20AC, as well as +10 to all saves.

    seems legit cr+5.

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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Shouldn't it be two additional hit dice not three, because otherwise your getting 4 hit dice per level?
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm

    Under Adding Hit Dice it lists 4 hit dice per CR for Humanoid. It's Monstrous Humanoids that get +1 per 3 hit dice (and they get 2 good saves and full BAB, so it ends up similar, though 4 humanoid hitdice is still better).


    Makes me think of Pathfinder's rules for advancing monsters. For just +1CR you get
    I think I see another class in the works here!
    Last edited by Seerow; 2014-03-09 at 06:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    we need to optimize this

    also, the table should probably get a number of feats gained collumn.

    if you extrapolated the Vow of Poverty rules, this thing could possibly become a destroyer of worlds, with (technically not rules legal) DCFS, we could be talking something along the lines of 50 feats.

    Edit: Wait, i realized what this is, it is the Fighter Fix to end all fighter fixes.

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    Last edited by toapat; 2014-03-09 at 06:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    I think it's funny that this class doesn't actually require you to be a humanoid. What happens if, say, a beholder takes this class? Do they start turning humanoid?
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaynor View Post
    I think it's funny that this class doesn't actually require you to be a humanoid. What happens if, say, a beholder takes this class? Do they start turning humanoid?
    it stuffs 2 eyestalks down each leg of a pair of pants, 2 more down a leatherman jacket, and pretends that its human
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    Default Re: Silly Idea: The Humanoid

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    it stuffs 2 eyestalks down each leg of a pair of pants, 2 more down a leatherman jacket, and pretends that its human
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