Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 133

Thread: Hel Art Choice

  1. - Top - End - #91
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Loreweaver15's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Great Frozen North
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    That only really says that Durkon, the high level adventurer, who is on track to save the world, and is now a vampire, is the strongest and most worthy.

    Plus he's not the pope. I doubt there is a singular high priest in general. But shrug.
    Considering that every time we've been told about a High Priest of Anything in-comic or within the prequel books they've been referred to as "The" High Priest of Whatever, I'd say there's one high priest per entity.
    3DS Friend Code: 3067-5674-0852. Currently running: Emerald.

    Latias, Groudon, Rayquaza, Kyogre promised to JustPlayItLoud for a shiny Gastly, Gulpin, Frogadier, and Dedenne. Regirock, Regice, Registeel up for grabs.

    Spoiler: Living Shinydex Progress 31/718 Newest Shiny: Buneary
    Show
    Gen I: 9/151
    Gen II: 6/100
    Gen III: 7/135
    Gen IV: 3/107
    Gen V: 3/156
    Gen VI: 2/69


    Come visit World's Finest Gaming on Tumblr or Facebook or even our Youtube channel and watch me stream!

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Also I am headcanoning that this is the "horizontally divided" interpretation of Hel. I pray to whatever Aesir remain after today that we never see the dead parts.
    And I'm headcanoning that the side of Hel that's dead is the inside.

    As for Hel's worshippers, she might not have any specific to her, but surely she'd get a general level of obsevervance, simply through those who didn't want to annoy her and thus spend eternity in torment. And Durkon would almost certainly know each gods rough ranking within the Northern pantheon - if a particular god's got a lot of worshippers, they'd be more powerful and thus higher up (Odin, Thor), and conversely for those with very few (Hel).

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    Besides, the implication is that Hel wants Thor brought down because she isn't getting enough souls. The cutaways show that Thor bends the rules in every way possible to keep souls out of her realm. If she had influxes of souls from other avenues there wouldn't be as much reason to do what she's planning to do.
    Alternatively, the other deities play fair, and Hel takes the appropriate dead from them, but Thor exploits every loop hole. Or maybe all the Northern gods use the loop holes, and as Thor's probably only second to Odin in the Northern pantheon, she's setting out to bring him down so that all the others fall in line, but she can't go after Odin because of what he'd do to her when he found out.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Back in the USSR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Seto View Post
    Hmm... I see your point. But High Priest of Hel isn't a name, it's a function. More similar to Roy saying : "As leader of a group of high-enough-level PCs, I will destroy Xykon." Or Miko saying : As the highest-ranking Paladin in the Sapphire Guard, I find you guilty of treason !" Or Haley saying : "As official acting leader of the Order of the Stick, I hereby revoke your membership !"

    This leaves us with 3 possibilities :
    - The spirit was just created.
    - It existed before as High Priest of Hel.
    - It existed before, but has effectively just become High Priest of Hel by taking over someone with a lot of Cleric levels.

    I'd go with "just created", that seems more logical for the process of becoming a vampire. But I'm not sure.
    Actually the third one makes a lot of sense. "As your high priest" meaning "as your undead servitor with the highest number pf Cleric levels'
    Spoiler
    Show

    Stealthy Snake avatar by Dawn
    Lack of images by Imageshack

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    I find the idea that the spirit possessing Durkon was ancient and lead the worship of Hel among the spirits in her reign before it was sent on to Durkon very cool and would gladly believe it.

    At the same time, I think that he was standing still here because he was being informed by Hel of her plan through rapture. So I think he was a fresh new spirit, born in Hel's kingdom and subjugated to Malak, which later came back to the servitude of Hel. It also explains why she refers to it as serendipitous, which, if it served her earlier, wouldn't make much sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_Of_Snow View Post
    Alternatively, the other deities play fair, and Hel takes the appropriate dead from them, but Thor exploits every loop hole. Or maybe all the Northern gods use the loop holes, and as Thor's probably only second to Odin in the Northern pantheon, she's setting out to bring him down so that all the others fall in line, but she can't go after Odin because of what he'd do to her when he found out.
    And why would Hel want to ruin the whole world if it was just Thor who exploited the loop holes and she was getting plenty of souls from other avenues?

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Hel's agent could have been (and likely was) implanted in Durkon from the very moment he was reanimated. The fact that Malack controlled him initially doesn't mean that the spirit didn't come from Hel. After all, Tsukiko created dozens of wights, but clearly they had no special allegiance to her beyond the spells that allowed her to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    And why would Hel want to ruin the whole world if it was just Thor who exploited the loop holes and she was getting plenty of souls from other avenues?
    It was just a suggestion, but maybe it's part of a power play, with Hel trying to usurp Odin as ruler of the Northern pantheon (trash the world and make everyone worship her out of fear and desperation), and Thor's been obnoxious enough to her to make himself Hel's primary target?

    Or maybe there's stuff that Hel knows (or thinks she knows) about the rifts that others don't - including the Dark One.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Recall that Durkon's lack of ranks in Knowledge: Religion was such that he failed to recognize a cleric of Loki, supposedly his own god's primary rival within his own pantheon, and was not aware of Loki's dominion of creatures of fire (IIRC correctly that scene was one where Hilgya was asserting authority over fire monsters through her god).

    So how reliable can we expect Durkon to be with respect to knowledge of the Northern Gods' pantheon, given this prior evidence?

    We must also consider that most people, when in friendly conversation with friends, as Durkon was taking his conversation with Malack to be, are not necessarily going to be scientifically precise with their use of terminology. "No one" may easily overlap with "Almost no one", or "very few", "not to my personal knowledge", or "no one who is to me significant enough to count". Now granted this was a conversation about religion between two clerics, so they *may* be more precise than you or I talking about celebrities and saying stuff like "no one likes Justin Bieber", or "everyone has been shocked by Miley Cyrus", or "Duck Dynasty has no fans anymore" but still, we don't assume that "no one" and "everyone" in those situations applies to the entire world, and so we shouldn't assume that it must apply here either.

    Hel can't have enough worshippers that her worship would be obvious among the Dwarves, and she can't have an active-enough priesthood for there to have been enough dealings directly with the Church of Thor and Odin for Durkon as a young cleric of Thor to have been aware of them. But she could certainly still have a *few* followers here and there among the Dwarves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    After all, Tsukiko created dozens of wights, but clearly they had no special allegiance to her beyond the spells that allowed her to do so.
    Well, they had enough of an allegiance to her to apologize to her for being compelled to attack her by the magic of a more powerful divine caster. That to me actually suggests that there *was* a special allegiance and even some kind of emotional bond, but that it was too weak to override RC's magic.
    Last edited by Amphiox; 2014-02-25 at 12:48 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Banned
     
    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lake Wobegon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    Well, they had enough of an allegiance to her to apologize to her for being compelled to attack her by the magic of a more powerful divine caster. That to me actually suggests that there *was* a special allegiance and even some kind of emotional bond, but that it was too weak to override RC's magic.
    Or Redcloak made them say the things they said to screw with Tsuki's head. But we're well into "choose what to believe" territory, at least until more evidence appears.

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Titan in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    What isn't? You mean that because Hel says dwarfs are under her purview it doesn't mean that other beings aren't?

    Remotely plausible, I suppose, but very questionable because if Hel already had worshipers to carry out her will then the High Priest wouldn't be the one initiating the plan. Oh, he'd certainly help with the plan, but her other minions would presumably already be trying.
    I think the Frost Giants in the background show that she accepts worshipers from people other than dwarves. That she doesn't have many of the really isn't my point. In this case, at least.

    To expand a bit outward, we already know that the Northern Pantheon accepts non-Dwarven worshipers. Which, really, just makes sense.

    It stands to reason that Hel wouldn't be particularly fussy about non-Dwarves worshiping her within the Northern Lands. In fact, all her statement really said is that the Northern Pantheon has special dominion over Dwarves, which seems to make sense from what we've already seen. But that doesn't remotely mean that they have no dominion elsewhere.

    That she doesn't have many of them just shows she isn't very good at her job.
    Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
    Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
    Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
    Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes


    __________________________

    No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Banned
     
    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lake Wobegon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    To expand a bit outward, we already know that the Northern Pantheon accepts non-Dwarven worshipers. Which, really, just makes sense.
    Actually, what seems more anomalous is that the Dwarves don't seem to have ascended any deities the way the Elves and the Goblins did. It makes me wonder why the Dwarves are so keen on the Northern pantheon.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Because they're generally as passive as Durkon, and so just take the gods they found around them. There also aren't any gnome, halfling or other monster gods.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Orc in the Playground
     
    BenjCano's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Annapolis, Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Actually, what seems more anomalous is that the Dwarves don't seem to have ascended any deities the way the Elves and the Goblins did.
    Neither have the halflings, the gnomes, orcs (unless you count Giggles), sylphs, giants, ogres, and all the other intelligent species that populate the D&D monster manual.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    Well, they had enough of an allegiance to her to apologize to her for being compelled to attack her by the magic of a more powerful divine caster. That to me actually suggests that there *was* a special allegiance and even some kind of emotional bond, but that it was too weak to override RC's magic.
    That "sorry" was the kind of sorry you get from an error message on a computer i.e. "We cannot process your request at this time."

    They were pretty blasé about eating each other and burning themselves in the fireplace.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2014-02-25 at 03:34 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    CaDzilla's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    You can't command undead to self-terminate.
    Theory:
    They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves. They might hold a grudge against RC for making them kill their mother. Also what better way to lie to a guy who sees undead as tools than to convince him that they are under his control
    Last edited by CaDzilla; 2014-02-25 at 04:57 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Domino Quartz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    You can't command undead to self-terminate.
    Theory:
    They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves.
    What do you think the sound in the first panel of this strip was, then?
    Spoiler: Out-of-context quotes
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    ...He would have to stay there permanently (without cake, somehow not breathing) for the prophecy to be fulfilled.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    Maybe Blackwing is a Schrödinger's familiar.
    Any given member of the Order needs to do a quantum measurement to see if they remember him

    Azurite Name Inspirations
    Rich is a better writer than that!
    Free speech?
    3DS friend code: 3024-8274-5412
    3DS name: Ignispirus
    Friend Safari: Ghost - Shuppet, Pumpkaboo, Spiritomb

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    CaDzilla's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino Quartz View Post
    What do you think the sound in the first panel of this strip was, then?
    Tsukiko being eaten

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    Tsukiko being eaten
    Even if you cant order them to kill themselves, only one of them would survive. All the others were ordered to eat each other in reverse order of age.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    WRT Hel and her lack of worshippers / priests, it may be because she is the same sort of being as the infernal deities in Greek religion. People curse by them but no one in their right minds would ever pray to them or worship them. They are not friendly to mortals.

    The only fictional example I can think of right now comes from David Drake's Isles series. Essentially, there are three gods in the Pantheon: The Lady, The Shepherd, and the Sister.

    The Lady and the Shepherd are your traditional merciful female and protective male deities whom people devote themselves to , beg for mercy from, all that good stuff.

    The Sister is ... something else.

    The Sister is pure malevolence and hatred, the dark to the Lady's light, the cruelty to her kindness, the iron hand of justice to the Lady's gentle mercy. In the books, no one who is not mad prays to the Sister, but she is a common feature of curses, as in "Sister take it" or "Sister take you" or "May the Sister take me if I lie".

    David Drake tells us that his version of the Sister is based on the Sumerian legend of Ereshkigal , Queen of the Underworld, which is a direct analog to Hel. It appears that both Rich Burlew and David Drake are drawing on this common mythological theme for their storytelling.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    CaDzilla's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Even if you cant order them to kill themselves, only one of them would survive. All the others were ordered to eat each other in reverse order of age.
    And who's the youngest?

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Korea
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    And who's the youngest?
    The pile of cinders left in the fireplace?
    Order of the Stick Avatar done by the talented Kymme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The Half-Hamster template gives me advantageous size and ability score bonuses, and combos well with my inherited Elderberry Radiance (Ex). Which is more than I can say for you, you class-dipping CL-losing Evoker!
    I was eating THOSE BEANS!!

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Back in the USSR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    You can't command undead to self-terminate.
    Theory:
    They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves. They might hold a grudge against RC for making them kill their mother. Also what better way to lie to a guy who sees undead as tools than to convince him that they are under his control
    Nothing in the Command Undead subset of Turn/Rebuke Undead says anything about not being able to issue self-destructive orders:

    Commanded

    A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.
    The spell of the same name does have this caveat, but it's a completely different game mechanic (it explicitly has somatic and verbal components, for one thing, while the Cleric class feature does not).

    That's an interesting theory but a long longshot.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Stealthy Snake avatar by Dawn
    Lack of images by Imageshack

  23. - Top - End - #113
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    You can't command undead to self-terminate.
    Theory:
    They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves. They might hold a grudge against RC for making them kill their mother. Also what better way to lie to a guy who sees undead as tools than to convince him that they are under his control
    Wait, your theory is that they were somehow able to lie (thus refusing an order), but they hold a grudge because they somehow weren't able to refuse the order to kill Tsukiko?

    Yeah, I'm gonna go with no.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    CaDzilla's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by orrion View Post
    Wait, your theory is that they were somehow able to lie (thus refusing an order), but they hold a grudge because they somehow weren't able to refuse the order to kill Tsukiko?

    Yeah, I'm gonna go with no.
    The order was given after they had drained the life out of her. Also, control of their bodies was temporarily wrenched away from them by a high level cleric with a high wisdom score.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    They never had control of their bodies. They went from being Tsukiko's thralls in the same way the High Priest of Hel used to be Malack's thrall, to being Redcloak's thralls, to being destroyed.
    Spoiler
    Show
    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
    The Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Commanded undead absolutely can be given suicidal orders. The spell Command Undead is a 2nd level wizard spell that requires verbal orders and requires Charisma checks to convince to do anything it wouldn't normally do; the command undead function is a clerical ability generally only available to high-level clerics (since their level must be twice the Hit Dice of the undead) which can use mental commands and gives absolute control. They're completely unrelated abilities, just named in a less-than-crystal-clear manner.

    So yes, Redcloak absolutely ordered them to kill each other, and then one to kill themselves, and that's exactly what happened. I just didn't show it because it would be pretty horrific.

    Also, this thread is supposed to be about Hel's art style. Discussions about how the metaphysics of this situation work should be taken to another thread.
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    The fact that Durkula has only been woshipping Hel for one day but he's already risen to the rank of "High Priest" suggests to me that there isn't a lot of competition for that job title.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2008

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    The fact that Durkula has only been woshipping Hel for one day but he's already risen to the rank of "High Priest" suggests to me that there isn't a lot of competition for that job title.
    Yes, exactly. I read as him getting the title by default because he's the only one and happens to be possessing a cleric's body (hence Hel using the word "serendipitous").

    Now, if the vampire deserts the party when they travel over dwarven lands and meets up with a bunch of Hel's followers including other priests, I'll revise it.
    Last edited by orrion; 2014-02-25 at 09:07 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    CaDzilla's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Hel didn't have eye bags in her previous appearances, why is that?

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hel Art Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    Hel didn't have eye bags in her previous appearances, why is that?
    probably because it was such a small scale that it wasn't worth putting them in.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •